In need of a guide

[Brendo]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the seperate self, the identity of who I THINK I am, isn't actually real and doesn't exist. The dude with a name, a body, a race, profession etc etc doesn't exist.

What are you looking for at LU?
Guidance to self realization. To gain clarity on how to move forward on that path. Pointers to help me on my path. To be included in a community that is based on helping people live more spiritual lives.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
No expectations really. I'm not entirely sure what will happen or what is even expected of me. I am open to whatever comes up and whatever is asked of me. So at those point, my expectations are open as I don't want to miss out by expecting.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have a mediation practice. I'm the last 5 months I have discovered self enquiry and Advaita Vedanta and have really taken to that path.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[warissem]

Hi Brendo

I wish to accompany you to see the fallacy of a separate self through this forum.

There are some rules to respect during the dialog :

Be honest with yourself :give your answers after having looked at direct experience (sseing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching).
Leave aside all the books, audios and videos about spirituality
Read and approve the disclaimer text
Learn how to use the quote function.

Let me know if you are ready to begin.

Warissem

[Brendo]

Thank you, Warissem.

I am ready.

[warissem]

Hi Brendo

Fine.

How do you imagine your life after the seeing of no separate self ? of no you in any shape or form ?

What would be the difference between "before seeing" and "after seeing" the illusion of a separate self?

Best wishes

Warissem

[Brendo]

1. It's hard to imagine as I don't want to superimpose an expectation. But, I can imagine it to be joyful, calm, increased clarity and a lightness in everyday life. Not being reactive to thoughts, people, situations and being able to see life as it really is, without meaning.

2. I'm not sure. More freedom after maybe? Less stress after? I really don't know

[warissem]

Hi Brendo

1. It's hard to imagine as I don't want to superimpose an expectation.

Good.

But, I can imagine it to be joyful, calm, increased clarity and a lightness in everyday life.

It could be or not.

Not being reactive to thoughts, people, situations and being able to see life as it really is, without meaning.

It could be reaction to thoughts, people, situations but there is no you reacting. What do you feel about this assertion?

Best wishes

Warissem

[Brendo]

It could be reaction to thoughts, people, situations but there is no you reacting. What do you feel about this assertion?

I'm having trouble understanding it fully. I feel of there was still reacting happening, who is the one being reactive? And won't it still cause problems if there are undesirable reactions?

[warissem]

Hi Brendo

I'm having trouble understanding it fully. I feel of there was still reacting happening, who is the one being reactive? And won't it still cause problems if there are undesirable reactions?

Now, I want you to know about direct experience and thought :

Direct experience is known through the five senses : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching.
Thought = concept, belief, opinion, idea, imagination

There are two kinds of thoughts :
1. Certain thoughts are pointing to an object which can be known through the five senses. Example : a thought of a tree
2. Certain thoughts are empty, they don't point to an object known through senses. Example : a thought of joy, a thought of a unicorn, ...

Now read your answer in the light of what is said about thought and direct experience, then write down "who is the one being reactive".

Best wishes

Warissem

[Brendo]

Now, I want you to know about direct experience and thought :

Direct experience is known through the five senses : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching.
Thought = concept, belief, opinion, idea, imagination

There are two kinds of thoughts :
1. Certain thoughts are pointing to an object which can be known through the five senses. Example : a thought of a tree
2. Certain thoughts are empty, they don't point to an object known through senses. Example : a thought of joy, a thought of a unicorn, ...

Now read your answer in the light of what is said about thought and direct experience, then write down "who is the one being reactive"

I guess it would be coming from #2 thoughts. The concept of "me" is the one being reactive. The seperate self.

Through sight and body sensation and thought, the reaction is perceived by the body and mind? The reaction is only thought then emotion then behavior.

Thank you for your patience

[warissem]

Hi Brendo

I guess it would be coming from #2 thoughts. The concept of "me" is the one being reactive. The seperate self.

Can a concept be reactive ? Can a concept see ? can a concept do things ?

Do you see a separate self ?
Do you hear a separate self ? Can you smell it, taste it or touch it ?

Through sight and body sensation and thought, the reaction is perceived by the body and mind? The reaction is only thought then emotion then behavior.

Does a body perceive anything ?
Does a mind (which is thoughts) perceive anything ?

You said : "The reaction is only thought then emotion then behavior" . OK. is there a you making the thought arise ? is there a you making the émotion come ?

Read the questions and Look at direct experience before giving answers.

best wishes

Warissem

[Brendo]

Can a concept be reactive ? Can a concept see ? can a concept do things ?

Do you see a separate self ?
Do you hear a separate self ? Can you smell it, taste it or touch it ?

No a concept can not be reactive. A concept cannot see. It cannot do things.

I do not see a seperate self. I see a body and I experience thoughts, feelings, sensations etc. I can't taste it or touch it no.

Does a body perceive anything ?
Does a mind (which is thoughts) perceive anything ?

A body senses things (sounds, touch, taste, temperature etc)

A mind thinks thoughts.

OK. is there a you making the thought arise ? is there a you making the émotion come ?

It seems like I make the thought arise by thinking it. The emotiin just arises in my experience.

Read the questions and Look at direct experience before giving answers.

best wishes

Warissem
[/quote]

[warissem]

Hi Brendo

No a concept can not be reactive. A concept cannot see. It cannot do things.

Yes.

I do not see a seperate self. I see a body and I experience thoughts, feelings, sensations etc. I can't taste it or touch it no.

Is there "I" seeing a body or is there only seeing?
is there "I" experiencing thoughts, feelings, ... or is there only knowing of thoughts, feelings, ...?

Exercise :

Go to a walk and notice what is going on then do the exercise. Example : I am walking vs walking is happening, I see beautiful flowers vs seeing is happening

I recommend this text for you : http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/ ... guage.html

A body senses things (sounds, touch, taste, temperature etc)

Is the body sensing things or is there knowing of sounds, touch, taste, ...?

A mind thinks thoughts.

Really? Can a mind (which is thought) think ?
Is a thought "thought" or is it arising from nowhere ?

It seems like I make the thought arise by thinking it. The emotiin just arises in my experience.

If you make the thought arise you won't have the bad ones, you will choose only the goodies.

That's OK for today

best wishes

Warissem

[Brendo]

Is there "I" seeing a body or is there only seeing?
is there "I" experiencing thoughts, feelings, ... or is there only knowing of thoughts, feelings, ...?

I guess the eyes see the body. The eyes are part of the body.

There's an experience of thoughts. But it's hard to get rid of the idea that's there me who the this are coming to.

Exercise :

Go to a walk and notice what is going on then do the exercise. Example : I am walking vs walking is happening, I see beautiful flowers vs seeing is happening

I recommend this text for you : http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/ ... guage.html

Is the body sensing things or is there knowing of sounds, touch, taste, ...?

I feel like the body senses things.

Really? Can a mind (which is thought) think ?
Is a thought "thought" or is it arising from nowhere ?

I guess a mind can't think. If a mind is just a collection of thoughts, it's nothing without thoughts. I had a belief that o am the one thinking the thoughts, but now I feel they just arise from nowhere

I'm missing something. Help

[warissem]

Hi Brendo

Come back after having read the text I recommended for you and write back what comes up after having done the exercise.

Warissem

[Brendo]

Hi Brendo

Come back after having read the text I recommended for you and write back what comes up after having done the exercise.

Warissem

I read the text. And intellectually I get it. I can't point to a doer. If I change the words to only the action verb, there no doer but it feels like a thoughts experiment and it doesn't bring a realization. There's thoughts "Ok, there no I, I can't point to an I, but there's a body and mind that together is leveled labeled I". The excercise is useful to practice as it gets the mind in the frame of only action happening and no doer, but again maybe I'm missing something as it's not changing my experience at all.

When I say "there is no doer" there's an experience of hearing "there is no doer". The experience gets labeled as happening to "me". The I takes credit for it and I can't shake that.