Being selfless self

[summerrain]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that there is no self, that we are awareness that is aware, that notices and experiences but that there is no real doer or active agent. I understand that when we look deeply within, there is nobody here. My direct experience is sensations and perceptions but they are also not me. My sense is that I am no self that is aware.

What are you looking for at LU?
I would like to reach an experiential knowing of my intellectual understanding of having no self. From this place I would ultimately like to deepen this experience and to decondition my system so that I live more in reality.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Questions to direct my looking and feedback on my observations. I understand that there is daily communication to facilitate the process of looking for no self and that guidance is provided by the facilitator.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have done various meditation courses over the last 20 years. I recently did the short version of the Finders Course (45 Days into AWakening) which was followed by another 90 days of course work. I have done the ten day Vipassana a few years ago.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[warissem]

Hi

I am glad to help you go through the illusion of the separate self.
There are some rules to be respected in this dialog :

Give a reply to questions once per day, if you can't do it just let me know. This is to be sure that you are really connected to your inquiry.
Be honest with yourself : the answers must be done after looking at direct experience : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching. There are thoughts arising but the investigation is not a logical thinking. It won't help to give answers from what you know, heard or read.
Read the disclaimer text.
Learn how to use the quote function.

I would like to reach an experiential knowing of my intellectual understanding of having no self. From this place I would ultimately like to deepen this experience and to decondition my system so that I live more in reality.

You said that you have an intellectual understanding of no self but it is not your experience. Can you describe the experience which is expected? What kind of experience? How this experience will change your life?

Best wishes

Warissem

[summerrain]

Hello Warissem
Thank you very much for your reply and for offering to help me. I am very happy to follow the guidelines in this inquiry process.

I am not sure what to expect in terms of a more feeling experience of the knowledge of no self, but my imagination around it is that when that knowing is experienced, there will be less pressure on being an 'I' and that there will be an unwinding and a letting go around issues such as personal agency or trying to achieve goals or making things happen. Perhaps a letting go of an attachment to feeling pressure from within me that I am 'responsible' for steering things in a particular way. I am not expecting a major shift or some feeling of experiencing my life in a different way to now - my guess is that it is a perceptual shift which may then lead to things dropping away. One example of a type of shift might be along the lines of what I recently experienced.

I did the 45 DAys into Awakening with Jeffery Martin and in that process I experienced a shift in terms of what used to be triggers in the past having much less effect on me. I am aware when something occurs that might not be what I would like but I don't experience a reaction to it in the way I used to. I no longer have amplified reactions of anger or outrage or annoyance or even excitement - they all seem to be much more muted somehow.

I am hoping that such shifts will create a greater sense of well-being in my life and a sense of things being more easeful but not that my life will suddenly become different in any significant way.

By the way, is this dialogue public to other members on this site?
Thank you.
Lisa

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

Your expectations are realistic when you say “not that my life will suddenly become different in any significant way”. Indeed there is no separate self right now even you have not seen it yet.

I give you an exercise to begin with, look at your thoughts for a while and make two lists :

First column : all the thoughts which contain I, Me, personal thoughts
Second column : all other thoughts

You don’t need to send the lists to me, just give the percentage of the personal thoughts and write down your impressions about this.

NB : yes, the forum is public but you can send a PM (private message) by clicking on my name (warissem).


Best wishes

Warissem

[summerrain]

Thank you Warissem for your reply and for your instruction. I'll get onto it and thank you also for clarifying re public/private messages.
Lisa

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

You are welcome.

[summerrain]

Hi Warissem

Could you clarify where a thought like these go?

awareness of hearing or seeing or food tasting good - Do they go under the I column?

Thank you.
Lisa

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

All thoughts where "I", "me" is involved, all personal thoughts.

[summerrain]

Hi Warissem

This is the result of doing the homework:

I tried to do the exercise in general. I did this by writing down the thoughts as they came up over the course of the evening last night. Over a period of time, there were 20 self thoughts and 30 other thoughts.

I did the same process again for a set 20 minutes that I timed. There were 17 self thoughts and 19 other thoughts.

In the self thoughts I included things like I see the bird flying or I hear the clock ticking because the subject is I.
The self thoughts were primarily reminders to self to do things or thoughts around awareness of physical sensations or noticing things in my environment (like the bird flying or clock ticking). There were few original thoughts.

In general I found it hard to catch these thoughts. I would realise time had gone by and I had not noticed what the thoughts were. They arise out of nowhere and very quickly. If I focused on awareness, the thoughts almost disappeared. The thoughts tend to come in clusters around a topic or theme. If I focused on doing an activity, the thoughts were generally related to the task I was doing. Thoughts developed from physical actions or states. For example, I would have tightness in my neck and that would give rise to the thought that I have tightness in my neck. Or, my hand would go to tie my hair without a conscious thought to do that and then the thought would arise that I am tying my hair.

Thank you!
Lisa

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

You have done good observation.

They arise out of nowhere and very quickly

.
Yes thoughts arise from nowhere. Is there a you making them arise?

If I focused on awareness, the thoughts almost disappeared.

Do you mean awareness focusing on itself or is there an I focusing on awareness ?

The thoughts tend to come in clusters around a topic or theme. If I focused on doing an activity, the thoughts were generally related to the task I was doing. Thoughts developed from physical actions or states. For example, I would have tightness in my neck and that would give rise to the thought that I have tightness in my neck. Or, my hand would go to tie my hair without a conscious thought to do that and then the thought would arise that I am tying my hair.

Yes, thoughts come after the action has been done. Can you conclude that you are not the doer? If so, give some examples.

Do things need an I to happen?

Best wishes

Warissem

[summerrain]

Thank you Warissem.

Yes thoughts arise from nowhere. Is there a you making them arise?

No, they arise of their own accord.

Do you mean awareness focusing on itself or is there an I focusing on awareness ?

I'm not really sure. It feels like I enter into awareness - there is no sense of separation from awareness. I think it's looking from awareness.

Yes, thoughts come after the action has been done. Can you conclude that you are not the doer? If so, give some examples.

I'm not sure that I can say I conclude that. I can conclude no I is thinking the thoughts. Physical movements by my body seem to happen of their own accord and thoughts may follow. But if someone asks me to phone them and I respond by phoning them, I'm not sure that I can say I am not the doer. Something is doing the doing and if it's not 'me', I'm not sure what that is.

Do things need an I to happen?

It doesn't appear that way.

Thank you!
Lisa

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

I'm not sure that I can say I conclude that. I can conclude no I is thinking the thoughts. Physical movements by my body seem to happen of their own accord and thoughts may follow. But if someone asks me to phone them and I respond by phoning them, I'm not sure that I can say I am not the doer. Something is doing the doing and if it's not 'me', I'm not sure what that is.

There is an exercise to do : just observe what is going on during a walk in a park or whatever during homework and write down the activities using “I” versus not using “I”.

Examples : I am walking vs walking is happening; I hear voices vs hearing voices

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?


I recommend for you to read this text : http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/ ... guage.html

Best wishes

Warissem

[summerrain]

Thank you Warissem. I'll look at the exercise you have suggested.
Lisa

[summerrain]

Hi Warissem,

The sentences that seem to feel more right do not have I in them. Sitting, hearing, typing, hugging, eating (is happening) all seem to feel more accurate than I am sitting or I am hearing or I am hugging etc.

Without labels, it's just the action or the experience and labels make no difference to the experience.

When I tell myself 'hearing' vs 'I am hearing', the latter feels more jarring in the body.

Overall, it feels like there is no conductor or orchestrator. The body just seems to do things.

Thank you for recommending the article. It was very helpful.

Lisa

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

Overall, it feels like there is no conductor or orchestrator. The body just seems to do things.

We are gonna look for the body. Close your eyes and look at which is called "body". LOOK without going to thoughts.

What is a body?
Does it have any limits ?
Does it have a location ?

Answers must be given from the observation of direct experience.

Best wishes

Warissem