Seeing through illusion of self

[emptiness]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that the "self" is a concept, that has been created through years of conditioning. It is a combination of thoughts, feelings, and other sensations that we label and give meaning to. In this way our experience is "colored"... but really, there are only sensations. We can say "I" do this or that, but there is no one to have control.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking to see through the illusion thoroughly and experientially, rather than just having an intellectual understanding of no-self. My end goal is to hopefully reduce my suffering and anxious behavior by seeing the world for what it really is. I believe I have made some progress already with my meditation practice, but I'm not quite there yet. It doesn't feel "complete" and there is definitely more for me to discover as I still feel identified with certain thoughts and feelings. I get stressed over things that shouldn't be that much of a big deal.

In short, I would like to just see things as they are and have that as a lasting experience/realization.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Of course, I'm not expecting total enlightenment and constant happiness and extreme bliss at all times once this is over. But any new insightful information or suggestions that can move me forward on this journey would be helpful. So I'd like to have conversation where we discuss the above issues, beliefs etc and whether or not I have some false views, or there's something I'm missing.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been meditating for over 7 years and have experimented with various practices, including concentration, self-inquiry, noting, body scanning, visualizations etc. Most of my experience has been with concentration (mindfulness of breath). Over the past few months I've been doing self-inquiry as taught by Ramana Maharshi ("who am I?") and open awareness meditation. I read spiritual books and posts on various blogs, forums and other sites for knowledge and inspiration. With that said, I think I still have a long way to go.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[warissem]

Hi

I don't want to call you emptiness as you are so full.
I am glad to walk with you and give pointers to you and make you see the illusion of a separate self.

There are some rules to respect during the dialog :

Be connected wit your inquiry and try to send replies once a day, if you can't do so just let me know
Be 100 % honest with yourself : your replies must be given after having looked at direct experience (five senses).
Let aside all the readings, listening and viewing about spirituality.
Learn how to use the quote function
Read the disclaimer text.

If you agree, let's begin.

Best wishes

Warissem

[emptiness]

Hi Warissem, thank you for your quick reply! You can call me Alex if you prefer.

Be connected wit your inquiry and try to send replies once a day, if you can't do so just let me know
Be 100 % honest with yourself : your replies must be given after having looked at direct experience (five senses).
Let aside all the readings, listening and viewing about spirituality.
Learn how to use the quote function
Read the disclaimer text.

That sounds good to me. I'll certainly be honest and speak from my direct experience. Would you suggest that I stop my daily meditation practice during this guidance?

I agree with your terms and am ready to begin.

Many thanks
Alex

[warissem]

Hi Alex

You said in the introductory post :

I still feel identified with certain thoughts and feelings

Can you elaborate on this "I" which feels identified ? Can you describe it for me?

NB : you can continue to medidate. It is great.

Best wishes

Warissem

[emptiness]

Can you elaborate on this "I" which feels identified ? Can you describe it for me?

When I'm in a quiet place and can just be at peace (such as during meditation), I feel that there is no me. There's only what is seen, heard, felt, and so on. And when I'm in this situation things are quite pleasant. But sometimes this body experiences stress, as a result of hearing or seeing certain things, and the mind interprets it in some way which causes suffering.

For example, I find out that I have to give a presentation at work and immediately my heart starts beating really fast and I start sweating. I imagine being in that situation and people judging me or it somehow going wrong. Now, I start having "self" thoughts again and I feel like I'm back in my body/mind. For a while I become these thoughts, and the uncomfortable feelings in my body, even though intellectually I know that's not possible and that these sensations arise by themselves. I know that I cannot be in control of anything but there is still this lingering feeling that I must do something to impress, I must do a good job.

So to answer your question, the "I" keeps moving and attaches itself to different feelings and thoughts. In particular feelings of needing to impress others, feelings of inadequacy, somehow there being some goal to achieve or something more to gain other than the present moment. Sometimes it is very prominent, other times it can't be located at all.

I hope that was clear, let me know if you need me to clarify anything.

Many thanks
Alex

[warissem]

Hi Alex

When I'm in a quiet place and can just be at peace (such as during meditation), I feel that there is no me. There's only what is seen, heard, felt, and so on. And when I'm in this situation things are quite pleasant.

Good. What is this “I” feeling that there is no me ? Look.

But sometimes this body experiences stress, as a result of hearing or seeing certain things, and the mind interprets it in some way which causes suffering.

Is what is said above a train of thoughts or a direct experience? Let’s explore this together :

Does a body experience a stress or there is knowing of certain sensations ? Can you look at these sensations without involving thought of a stress?

Does a mind interpret things or is it just another thought? As you know a mind is only thoughts then can a thought think or interpret things?

Can a way of interpretation cause suffering ? Where does this suffering appear ? Is it a sensation ?

So to answer your question, the "I" keeps moving and attaches itself to different feelings and thoughts.

Can you describe this “I” which is moving ?

NB / you have to read the questioncarefully and look at direct experience (seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching) before giving an answer.


I recommend this reading for you.
http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/ ... guage.html

Best wishes

Warissem

[emptiness]

Good. What is this “I” feeling that there is no me ? Look.

In this case it probably would've been better for me to say "there is no self that can be perceived". There is no "I". Only the bare sensations.

Is what is said above a train of thoughts or a direct experience? Let’s explore this together :

Does a body experience a stress or there is knowing of certain sensations ? Can you look at these sensations without involving thought of a stress?

Yes, you're right, it's just a train of thoughts. There is only knowing of certain sensations. Stress is just a label I use to describe tension in the body and head, which themselves are sensations. I can look at the sensations without involving thought, but the thoughts often follow. There is a close link between the bodily sensations and the thoughts about stress. It's kind of habitual.

Does a mind interpret things or is it just another thought? As you know a mind is only thoughts then can a thought think or interpret things?

I hadn't thought of it that way before, but yes, I guess the "mind" is really just a collection of thoughts. Of course, a thought can't think, and neither can a collection of thoughts. So these sensations are simply what they are, and there is no interpretation.

Can a way of interpretation cause suffering ? Where does this suffering appear ? Is it a sensation ?

Hmm, I'm not sure how to answer this one because to me, suffering is a result of unpleasant sensations. I'm not sure what exactly makes them "unpleasant", but I would consider that to be an interpretation of them. The suffering, I guess, is itself a thought that follows these sensations. An aversion to the present moment.

Can you describe this “I” which is moving ?

The best way I can describe it is another thought, a thought of identification that attaches itself to other thoughts and feelings. So in a way, it isn't something separate or even real. At least, it's no more real than any other thought.

[warissem]

Hi Alex

You have made good observations.
We have a habit of expressing what’s going on as a subject, a verb and an object. Example : a baby is crying. I am writing on the forum.

In reality, when we look at a baby who is crying, there are not three appearances (baby, is and crying) there is only one appearance which is “a crying baby”. It is the language which splits the one into three or into two. The experience shows only one. The same rule applies for “I am writing on the forum” : the experience shows one movement “ writing on the forum”, there is no I which shows up.

Exercise : make observations of what is going on during a walk in a park, or whatever and write down what is going on, using “I” like it is habitually done then without using the “I”. Give me you impressions about that. Example : I hear a bird singing vs there is hearing of a bird singing; I am walking vs walking is happening.

I recommend this video for you :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl4Ajb7 ... Z0TEp60DeQ

Best wishes

Warissem

[emptiness]

Hi Warissem

Thanks for your comments.
There was a thought "not a bad idea, why not take a walk in the park" :D

So here are my observations:

• Leaves are falling from the trees and being pushed by the wind
• There is the sound of music playing
• There is the feeling of earphones in the ears
• There is a sense of pervading peace
• The feeling of cold raindrops hitting the face is felt
• A dog is running
• Ducks are swimming in the pond

And the "I" versions:

• I can see leaves falling from the trees and being pushed by the wind
• I can hear music playing
• I can feel earphones in my ears
• I feel peaceful
• I feel cold raindrops hitting my face
• I can see a dog running
• I can see ducks swimming in the pond

It definitely feels more natural to write in the context of "I", but it felt a lot more relaxing to drop the "I" and directly notice what is there. After taking the notes, there was just walking and focusing on the bare sensations. Like the universe was doing the walking, and not "me". There was lightness and a feeling of a burden being dropped - no longer having to see things through the lens of this imaginary self.

Interesting video, I liked the melon analogy. That's exactly how it feels to drop the "I", an imaginary concept that was never there in the first place but felt very real at the time. Will give the rest of the series a watch.

Best regards
Alex

[warissem]

Hi Alex

Yes there is lightness when the imaginary self is dropped.

What comes up when you hear : there is no you, no separate entity, there never was, it will never be.

Best wishes

Warissem

[emptiness]

Hi Warissem

There is again lightness, a feeling of recognition, and peace. A feeling of being merged with the universe.

Thanks
Alex

[warissem]

Hi Alex


Is there a you in any shape or form?
Are you the doer of the deeds ?
Are you the one which make decisions ?

Elaborate when you answer these questions.


Warissem

[emptiness]

Hi Warissem

Yes, there is still a “me”/doer/decision maker in a subtle way. When the “I” is at the center of attention, it disappears as it is recognised that there are only sensations. The same applies to doership and decision making. When focusing on an activity, or making a decision, it feels like someone is “doing” or making the decision. But on placing attention on the sensations it is seen that there’s no doer or decision maker, because all that can be observed is thoughts, feelings, sounds, etc. So it is impossible to observe the “I” because when observed, it seems to disappear.

A bit confusing I know, but it’s the best way to describe what’s being experienced.

Best regards
Alex

[warissem]

Hi Alex

Yes, there is still a “me”/doer/decision maker in a subtle way. When the “I” is at the center of attention, it disappears as it is recognised that there are only sensations. The same applies to doership and decision making. When focusing on an activity, or making a decision, it feels like someone is “doing” or making the decision. But on placing attention on the sensations it is seen that there’s no doer or decision maker, because all that can be observed is thoughts, feelings, sounds, etc. So it is impossible to observe the “I” because when observed, it seems to disappear.

A bit confusing I know, but it’s the best way to describe what’s being experienced

Let’s imagine a man running. What is seen : a running man (in direct experience, there is no separation between the body and the activity of running). What is expressed is : a man is running (the language splits ONE whole into TWO). We can also say : I see a man running. In the direct experience there is only seeing a man running, there is no I to be found. Then to be certain that there is no doer, no decision maker, you have to LOOK.

For this I want you to do an exercise : http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/05/labels.html

Best wishes

Warissem

[emptiness]

Let’s imagine a man running. What is seen : a running man (in direct experience, there is no separation between the body and the activity of running). What is expressed is : a man is running (the language splits ONE whole into TWO). We can also say : I see a man running. In the direct experience there is only seeing a man running, there is no I to be found. Then to be certain that there is no doer, no decision maker, you have to LOOK.

For this I want you to do an exercise : http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/05/labels.html

Yes, by witnessing things directly, there's a sense of relief. It feels much easier and more natural. I followed the steps and wrote down, for example "I am hearing the wind", "I am feeling warm", "I am seeing the room". Followed by "hearing wind", "feeling warm", "seeing the room" and so on. In the second case, things are much more clear and immediate, like cutting out an unnecessary observer. There is also a mental relief from not having to perceive things through the imaginary "I".

Today it mostly felt like I was on autopilot rather than being the doer or thinker. Even when there was some "stress" or tension (as I would label it in the past), it felt like it wasn't happening to "me", there was just the experience itself and it soon passed. I think I'm making progress on integrating this "realization" or understanding into my daily life. Thanks for sharing the exercise.

Best regards
Alex