Who or What am I?

[Kya]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?

Seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' means there is only this universe that is appearing each moment that is appearing to itself in its own awareness. It means that the sensations, thoughts, perceptions that are happening in the now - some of which are bound together as the sense of 'me' is an illusion.

What are you looking for at LU?

I am looking for a permanent dissolution of the illusion created by mind that there is a person operating here. I feel I have been to that several time but still have a felt sense of being here in this limited area of my perceptions - where body sensations, touch etc. are felt and to which invisible arrows in the visual/hearing field point to. There is a strong sense of aliveness in the sensations in the body and I "feel" this is more me than the computer - screen over there - even though if I ask the question directly - is this body sensation more 'me' than the computer screen? - the answer is no.

At LU I expect to get rid of this "feeling" of being localized to my body - this localized area in the field of my perceptions. I am hoping to be done with this illusion once and for all. I am somewhat skeptical that this can be done by answering some questions alone.
I'll answer the questions from my experience only and see where it leads.

If I ask myself, what is behind this sensation in the body? - I see there is something happening here, on its own, that is larger than the body and I could be more that the body. I see that what is happening is spontaneous and I have no control over it - it is just happening. But when I don't ask that question the "feeling" of being confined to this limited area in space comes back. At LU I am looking for a final resolution or dissolution of this illusion!

What do you expect from a guided conversation?

I expect to be asked questions specific to the form of illusion about myself that I experience. I don't want to be cut any slack. If it seems to the questioner that I am not answering from experience, they should express it. I expect to look deeper with the guided conversation than I have been able to do on my own.

I am perfectly sane right now, but if some energies arise that take time to subside, I want to be guided again till the illusion about a separate self is dispelled.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

I have done Byron Katie's work on my own.
I have been following Francis Lucille webinars for the last few months.
I took a course in Kiloby Inquiries recently.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Vivien]

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I can assist you with your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for to change?
What do you hope that should happen?
What is missing?

Vivien

[Kya]

write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for to change?
What do you hope that should happen?
What is missing?

Hi Vivian, Thanks for your reply. I will write from my experience as I see it, what feels true with whole honesty. I can post daily.

What am I really looking for?

I am looking to feel that whatever is happening in my experience feels like me, in me. I want to feel I am expanded to all that I see and think. I want to feel that I am not limited to the story, sensations, reactions that I call "Kya".

What would my life change if I find that?

My life would be happier with much less worries and fears, except for the visceral fears of a biological organism. I will no longer act blindly on my fear/anger. I'll feel one with all my perceptions, not just a subset of them. I'll act as if I have no cares in the world - I'll be free in that sense. I'll be able to help other's who want to see though it. I may be able to make money out of that.

What am I hoping for to change?

I am hoping my repetitive thinking should stop or stop bothering me. I hope my seeking outside of myself and seeing some enlightened people as carrying the key to all understanding should stop. I am hoping I'll appear self confident and self possessed in the world. I am hoping, I'll love myself unconditionally. I hope I will no longer feel limited and separated from the rest of my perceptions.

What is missing?

A sense of connection with everything appearing here in my experience. I feel more strongly connected to the set of sensations appearing in the body. I don't experience a sense of ease all the time with everything that appears.

[Vivien]

Hi Kya,

What name would you like me to call you?

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

I am looking to feel that whatever is happening in my experience feels like me, in me. I want to feel I am expanded to all that I see and think. I want to feel that I am not limited to the story, sensations, reactions that I call "Kya".

Let’s look at what happens here. You have some ideas about how wholeness would be like through the lenses of a separate self.

Your desires are based on the idea that there is a me, who is seeing and thinking and is limited to the story, sensations and reactions, and this me wants to expand itself to become one with everything. That this limited me somehow could recognize itself as being everything, or that everything is appearing in this self.

But this is still about separation. This interpretation of wholeness is based on the idea of a separate self.

The thing is that it cannot be know in advance how it will be. Why? Because all expectations come on behalf of a separate self, who is always in a search for peace, happiness, lack of fear and suffering. We simply cannot imagine it, since we cannot step outside from the separate self’s perspective. We can only imagine it within the dream of me. The illusionary me is simply unable to imagine how it would be if it were discovered to be just a fictional character and not a reality. It can only imagine what it wants for itself.

My life would be happier with much less worries and fears, except for the visceral fears of a biological organism

Here is the idea, that life is owned by ME, it’s MY life, and it’s happening TO me.
So as the result of this inquiry I somehow could change, I will have much less worries and fears.

But what if this is all an illusion? What if there is no me at all? What if life doesn’t happen TO a me? What if there is only life, without a me?
What if worry or fear just happens, but without happening to a me, or to anything at all?

What if when there is worry or fear, life just shows up in that moment AS the perception of worry and fear, but without being anchored TO ME, without being anchored to anything?

I will no longer act blindly on my fear/anger. I'll feel one with all my perceptions, not just a subset of them.

Can you notice that all these desires about a separate self? It’s about ME?
What if there is no me at all, who could feel to be one with all its perception?
What if recognizing oneness or non-separation is not a feeling at all?

I'll act as if I have no cares in the world - I'll be free in that sense. I'll be able to help other's who want to see though it. I may be able to make money out of that.

What if there is ALREADY no-one acting in any way? What is there is already no-one having or not having cares in the world? What if this one that is supposedly caring and fearful is just the figment of imagination?

I am hoping my repetitive thinking should stop or stop bothering me.

You see, you believe that there is a me who is being bothered by thoughts. But what if this is not true?

What if everything you THINK about yourself, or what non-separation is, is simply NOT how it is?

If it turned out that none of your expectations could come true, since all of them are based on the assumption that there is a me having experiences, who is just an imagined fictional character, not reality – would you still want to investigate truth / reality?

Please ponder on my comments to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?

Vivien

[Kya]

Hi Vivien,

You can call me Divya.

I can put aside my expectations. You say they are on behalf of a separate self that wants to change in some way and I can see my expectations arising on behalf of a "me" with a fictitious "life" in the "past" and the "future".

I love that you said - expectations can lead to comparison between what IS and 'the expectation' and if it does not match lead to the rejection of what is seen.

There are things, sensations, people, expectations, coming and going and without a 'me' to attach to there will be the same things coming and going. There is no need for a 'me' to exist for what is happening - sunshine, desk, sensations, labelling of sensations, feelings, sounds, typing, hands...

I am interested in exploring truth/reality, without any expectations. I can put aside books and videos etc.

I'm ready to begin the investigation.

Divya

[Vivien]

Hi Divya,

All right, let’s start it.

Here is the basics of looking, how we are going to approach each question.
You can tell me what is behind your back in two ways:
1. You can think about it, remember and tell me from thinking.
2. You can turn around, see it and describe.

So in this investigation I ask you to look at and describe what you experience and not what you think, remember or imagine.
Can you see the difference?

I am hoping my repetitive thinking should stop or stop bothering me.

You are saying that repetitive thinking is bothering ME.

So where is this me in this very moment, how is bothered by repetitive thinking?

Please make sure that you don’t think about the answer, but actually turn towards yourself, and describe what you see / notice.

I'll feel one with all my perceptions, not just a subset of them.

Where is this I here now, which has perception?

Is there an I standing apart from perceptions, and having them? Where?

Vivien

[Kya]

Hi Vivien,

In this moment, without reference to thinking, there is no "me" bothered by repetitive thinking. There is a sensation that raises it's hand to say "I am", but it is not "me" bothered by thinking. There is another sensation that "claims to be looking for answers" but it is not "me". There is a thought - "but there is a me, keep looking" - but that thought is not "me". In this moment there is a bunch of sensations and thoughts and none of them is "me" bothered by sensations.

Here, now, there are only sensations, perceptions - there is no "I" standing apart to claim them.

I can think of something - posit an "eternal awareness". I don't see an "eternal awareness" standing apart from what is there, here, now.

No there is nothing apart from perceptions. There are only perceptions. None of the perceptions own the other perceptions.

There are some thoughts that object to there being only perceptions and nothing apart from the perceptions. These thoughts are not "me". The thoughts are a kind of perception. The thoughts don't own or see other perceptions. Thoughts and perceptions are arising as if parallel to each other and looking is there too.

There is a seeing, looking, of sensations. Is there anyone doing the seeing, the looking, the sensing? There are only more sensations, seeing and looking in response to that question.

If I look at the question - "Where is the I, which has perceptions?" - I see more sensations and perceptions. There is no I apart from sensations and perceptions. There is a thought "I" which keep trying to attach to one or the other of these sensations.

I went around asking "Is this the I that perceives?" and looked at the perceptions, the answer is always no. And there is nothing apart from perceptions. Thoughts are also perceptions. Sensations are perceptions. None of the perceptions stands apart and looks at other perceptions.

-Divya

[Vivien]

Hi Divya,

There is a sensation that raises it's hand to say "I am"

Are you sure about this? A sensation raises its hand?
A sensation is owning the hand? A sensation has a hand?
A sensation is the controller and mover of the hand?
Can a sensation talk and say “I am”?
What is it that is making the statement “I am”?

There is another sensation that "claims to be looking for answers" but it is not "me".

Are you saying that sensations can talk? Are you sure?
Are sensations some sort of entities who can do all sorts of things, like owning, raising the hand, talking and making all sorts of claims?

I can think of something - posit an "eternal awareness".

So you are the thinker?
How do you think a thought?

I went around asking "Is this the I that perceives?" and looked at the perceptions, the answer is always no. And there is nothing apart from perceptions. Thoughts are also perceptions. Sensations are perceptions. None of the perceptions stands apart and looks at other perceptions.

Yes. But then how could a sensation move a hand, talk and make claims? Can you see the trick here?

I would like to ask you to learn to use the quotation function, so our conversation will be easier to read later for both of us.
So here is the link to a video how to quote:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660


Vivien

[Kya]

Hi Vivien,

Are you sure about this? A sensation raises its hand?
A sensation is owning the hand? A sensation has a hand?
A sensation is the controller and mover of the hand?
Can a sensation talk and say “I am”?
What is it that is making the statement “I am”?

No, I am not sure about it. A sensation does not raise its hand.
A sensation is not owning a hand. It does not have a hand.
A sensation is not the controller and mover of the hand.
A sensation cannot talk.
The statement "I am" appears. I cannot find anything that is making that statement.

Are you saying that sensations can talk? Are you sure?
Are sensations some sort of entities who can do all sorts of things, like owning, raising the hand, talking and making all sorts of claims?

A sensation cannot talk.
No, sensations are just sensations, they cannot own, raise the hand, talk or make claims. They can only appear and vanish.

So you are the thinker?
How do you think a thought?

It is more like - a thought appears and then another thought appears - "I was thinking that thought." Another thought can appear - "I can think that thought again".

I am not the thinker of thoughts - the thoughts come and go.

I went around asking "Is this the I that perceives?" and looked at the perceptions, the answer is always no. And there is nothing apart from perceptions. Thoughts are also perceptions. Sensations are perceptions. None of the perceptions stands apart and looks at other perceptions.

Yes. But then how could a sensation move a hand, talk and make claims? Can you see the trick here?

The looking became more sharp towards the end of my post.
In the beginning of the post I was associating the thoughts that were appearing with the sensations.
Towards the end, I was actually asking the question "Is this the "I" that perceives?" and the answer was always no.

I can see the trick here - between attributing thoughts and ownership etc. to sensations and actually evaluating if they are "I" or not.

"I" is a thought and it will never be a sensation in the body or a sensory perception or another thought.

- Divya

[Vivien]

Hi Divya,

You did a nice investigation.

"I" is a thought and it will never be a sensation in the body or a sensory perception or another thought.

So, where is the me, the person in this very moment?
How does the me, the person experienced?
Can the person be experienced, or the person or is it purely in imagination?

Close eyes and investigate:
How is it known that there is a me without referring to thoughts?

Vivien

[Kya]

Hi Vivien,

You ask,

So, where is the me, the person in this very moment?

"Me, the person" is a thought that comes and goes. And every time there is a thought "me, the person" it is a completely new perception, not equal to or same as any other perception that appears. In this very moment there is no "me, the person".

There are perceptions - images, sounds, sensations. "Me, the person" is one of them. "Me, the person" is a thought, a perception, and it cannot be equated to any other perception that comes up. All perceptions are what they are, no two perceptions can be the same. So, "me, the person" is nothing more than a thought in the moment.

You ask,

How does the me, the person experienced?
Can the person be experienced, or the person or is it purely in imagination?

Images and thoughts are experienced, they come and go, there is no person experienced.
The person is purely in imagination. Here, now, with direct looking at the current experience, there is no person.

In the current experience, without imagination, a person cannot be experienced.

Now, there is food here, a hand, a fork, the food is picked, put in mouth, chewed and swallowed, and there is no person. There is laughter, smiling, still no person.

There is a thought - "Is it so simple?"

You say,

Close eyes and investigate:
How is it known that there is a me without referring to thoughts?

Closed eyes and investigated.
It cannot be known there is a "me" without reference to thought. There is no need either for there to be a "me".

-Divya

[Vivien]

Hi Divya,

Nice investigation.

In the current experience, without imagination, a person cannot be experienced.

And with imagination, is there a person experience?
Is there any time when a self / I / person is experienced? Ever?

Now, there is food here, a hand, a fork, the food is picked, put in mouth, chewed and swallowed, and there is no person. There is laughter, smiling, still no person.

There is a thought - "Is it so simple?"

:) Seeing reality is simple. Since reality is very simple. Only thoughts complicate things.

Is life something you do or something that is happening?
What is not happening on automatic?

Is there a separate self in charge?
Was there ever?

Vivien

[Kya]

Hi Vivien,

You ask,

And with imagination, is there a person experience?
Is there any time when a self / I / person is experienced? Ever?

When imagination is experienced, thoughts and mental images are experienced. So, even with imagination, a person is not experienced, only imagination as it appears is experienced.

Only experience - sights, sounds, sensations, smells, taste, mental images, thoughts are experienced. None of them is "self / I / person".

There is never a time when a "self / I / person" is experienced.

You ask,

Is life something you do or something that is happening?
What is not happening on automatic?

Life is something that is happening. No one does it.
The idea of someone who can do something independently of life, appears in life. This idea of someone with autonomy from life cannot appear without life - funny!

Everything is happening on automatic - Including the thought - "Some actions are voluntary." The "voluntary actions" are also on autopilot. There was just now this thought - "I typed." Both the actual typing and the thought about typing occurred on their own.

There is laughter.

You ask,

Is there a separate self in charge?
Was there ever?

There is no separate self in charge.
There never was.

There are thoughts like - "I never thought I'd write like this. This is above my paygrade." Those thoughts also came spontaneously, as part of life. There was looking for "the person" these thoughts seem to refer to - none was found.

- Divya

[Vivien]

Hi Divya,

You did a really nice investigation :)

What does this experience happening TO?
Is there someone here having this experience?
Is the body the experiencer, or the body appears AS an experience?
What are you separate from right now?
Are you separate from this experience, being something other than experience and experiencing what is going on?
Is this very experience is separate from the knowing of it?
Is there anything outside of this here-and-now experience?

Vivien

[Kya]

Hi Vivien,

You ask,

What does this experience happening TO?

This experience happens to no one. Experience is complete in itself. Experience does not have an outside agency to experience itself. Experience is life appearing to itself in the moment.

You ask,

Is there someone here having this experience?

There is no one having this experience.

You ask,

Is the body the experiencer, or the body appears AS an experience?

Body is not the experiencer. Body appears AS an experience.

You ask,

What are you separate from right now?

Nothing is separate from me. I am not separate from the experience right now. As there is nothing but the experience appearing right now, I am the experience appearing right now.

Right now, there is the experience of sensations, sounds, images. I am not separate from this experience, there is nothing separate from this experience, right now.

An experience of a sensation separate from some sounds is here, right now. I am not separate from this experience of a sensation separate from some sounds here, right now.

You ask,

Are you separate from this experience, being something other than experience and experiencing what is going on?

No.

You ask,

Is this very experience is separate from the knowing of it?

No.

You ask,

Is there anything outside of this here-and-now experience?

No.

There is a thought - "So many no's!" LOL.

Thanks!

- Divya