Thread for Su (asking for Forgetmenot as a guide)

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
Everland
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:00 pm

Thread for Su (asking for Forgetmenot as a guide)

Postby Everland » Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:40 am

Asking for Forgetmenot as a guide. Thank you.

User avatar
forgetmenot
Posts: 5802
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Thread for Su (asking for Forgetmenot as a guide)

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:17 pm

Hello Su,

Just a few details before we start. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate. At LU we are described as guides and not teachers as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises, questions and some dialogue. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings about the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been and with this realisation a shift in perception happens. You can’t just sit and ponder what we are exploring, you must apply the ideas to your life; see them in action…actually do the work (practical application) every day, day in and day out.

Here are links to information I would like you to read please:-

Disclaimer:-

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:-

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/na ... f=4&t=660

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

User avatar
Everland
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:00 pm

Re: Thread for Su (asking for Forgetmenot as a guide)

Postby Everland » Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:50 am

Thank you, Kay. I have read the disclaimer and other links.


Su

User avatar
forgetmenot
Posts: 5802
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Thread for Su (asking for Forgetmenot as a guide)

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:00 am

Hi Su,

Thank you for reading the links, including the disclaimer.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Unless exercises given need several days to be accomplished; post at least every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know. If you wish to post every day, that too is okay!

2. Please answer what's true for you once you have looked to see what is being pointed at, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Ideal answers may sound good but will be of no benefit to you in having you realise that there is no separate self. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration. Be here with an open and curious mind.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done in Word - it will save you time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration ie what life will look like; what life will feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change etc. Could you please answer the 4 following questions in your own words:-

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

User avatar
Everland
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:00 pm

Re: Thread for Su (asking for Forgetmenot as a guide)

Postby Everland » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:01 am

Hello Kay,

How will life change?
I hope to finally see the truth of this existance and no longer feel attached to the drama out in the world and inside my head.

It seems that I don't have any control over my actions or the situtation around me, and have this feeling of "anything wrong can happen at any moment", especially since many unpleasent things have already happened and are continuing to happen.

I feel like I am at the mercy of whatever life throws at me, and that there is nothing I can do to change or prevent these unpleasent things I am experiencing from happening. As a result, there is this constant fearful anticipation which is wearing me down daily. I hope all of these feelings would subside, after realization.
How will you change?
I expect it to become more peaceful internally, and free of stress.
What will be different?
Perhaps more calmness inwards.
What is missing?
Peace and clarity is missing now.

Su

User avatar
forgetmenot
Posts: 5802
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Thread for Su (asking for Forgetmenot as a guide)

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:41 pm

Hi Su,

The reason for those questions were to suss out if you had any expectations of what realising ‘no self’ would look like or feel like specifically. Many have ideas that when they are in bliss, for example, that this is evidence of having had the realisation. Realising that realisation of ‘no self’ has happened, can be very subtle and can be hidden by expectations if there is some sort of preconceived idea of what it should entail.
How will life change?
I hope to finally see the truth of this existance and no longer feel attached to the drama out in the world and inside my head.
Yes, this does happen but it does take time and does not drop away immediately after realising that there is no separate self who suffers from whatever plays out in the world. Even after realising no self there can a time, and no one knows how long this will happen for…it’s different for every person….of yo-yoing between clarity and confusion because many years of believing that one is a separate finite self does not disappear with the realisation. Realising no self is a beginning and not an ending. There are still beliefs, patterns and emotions that continue to create drama as they are rooted in the idea of being a separate self and they will need clearing.
It seems that I don't have any control over my actions or the situtation around me, and have this feeling of "anything wrong can happen at any moment", especially since many unpleasent things have already happened and are continuing to happen.
There has never been a you who has been, or has ever had control. Life is simply lifing. Paradoxically, it is the seeming separate self that fears not having control, fears life and fears the worst in life as it feels continually threatened by life…waiting for life to attack it. This is all a thought story and will become clearer as we investigate what the separate self actually is.

Be aware that this exploration will also provoke emotions, including fear, so let me know whenever you have feelings and emotions arising so that we can look at them together.
I feel like I am at the mercy of whatever life throws at me, and that there is nothing I can do to change or prevent these unpleasent things I am experiencing from happening. As a result, there is this constant fearful anticipation which is wearing me down daily. I hope all of these feelings would subside, after realization.
Emotions don’t disappear completely, it’s just that there is no longer a judgement attached to emotions, so emotions arise and subside without any need for them to be different. But again, this is something that takes time and does not happen when no self is realised. It is all a process as conditioning needs to be seen through and the clarity of what emotions actually are, sink in. The judgement of life being pleasant or unpleasant, of wanting experience to be different to how it is, is what causes suffering. It is only thought that seemingly judges….and you are not the thinker of thought. This we will look at in our exploration.

Okay, now we learn to become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is. Being clear about your direct actual experience (AE) is an important component of this exploration.

‘Looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now, in this current moment.

Actual experience (AE) is colour (image), sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value. It is noticing the raw experience of colour, sound, smell, taste and sensation MINUS the labels and thoughts about the raw experience.

The following exercise points to what I mean.

I would like you to sit somewhere quiet and become aware of sounds. Close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? And make sure that the sound is something you will hear again, for the next phase of this exercise.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

User avatar
Everland
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:00 pm

Re: Thread for Su (asking for Forgetmenot as a guide)

Postby Everland » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:52 am

Thank you, Kay.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? And make sure that the sound is something you will hear again, for the next phase of this exercise.
I am hearing the sounds from the 'White Noise machine'.


Su

User avatar
forgetmenot
Posts: 5802
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Thread for Su (asking for Forgetmenot as a guide)

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:10 am

Hi Su,
Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? And make sure that the sound is something you will hear again, for the next phase of this exercise.
I am hearing the sounds from the 'White Noise machine'.
Remembering that actual experience (AE) is something that is happening in the moment, and is the raw experience of colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation and the face value of thought....

...I would like you to repeat the exercise and answering from your direct actual experience in this moment only, can you tell me...

- How is it known that the sound is 'white noise''?

What is it that says the sound is 'white noise' and that it is coming from the 'white noise machine''?

What is the actual experience of 'white noise'?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

User avatar
Everland
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:00 pm

Re: Thread for Su (asking for Forgetmenot as a guide)

Postby Everland » Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:29 am

Hi Kay,

- How is it known that the sound is 'white noise''?
It was a recognition of the sound.
What is it that says the sound is 'white noise' and that it is coming from the 'white noise machine''?
I believe it was a thought that automatically came up upon hearing the noise.
What is the actual experience of 'white noise'?
As I am listening to the sound, the recognition of the sound comes almost immediately after or at the same time; It's hard to separate the noise from the recognition of it.

I can only theorize that "I can't know the sound without thoughts". But I don't want to theorize this.
I cannot seem to push aside my thoughts in order to experience the sound directly.


Su

User avatar
forgetmenot
Posts: 5802
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Thread for Su (asking for Forgetmenot as a guide)

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:52 am

Hey Su,
How is it known that the sound is 'white noise''?
It was a recognition of the sound.
Yes...there is a recognition of the fact that a sound has arisen, but “It was a recognition of the sound”, is a thought. Without thought, how could it possibly be known that the sound is something called ‘white noise’?
What is it that says the sound is 'white noise' and that it is coming from the 'white noise machine''?
I believe it was a thought that automatically came up upon hearing the noise.
Yes, exactly. Now had thought said that it was rain making the sound, how would you know without thought, if it was rain or white noise? Please don’t refer to any memories/thoughts here. Just go by actual experience of sound. Without thought, how would you know if it was rain or white noise?

Does a thought actually create the sound, or does it simply name it and describe it?

What is the actual experience of 'white noise'?
As I am listening to the sound, the recognition of the sound comes almost immediately after or at the same time; It's hard to separate the noise from the recognition of it.
Yes, there is a knowing (recognition) of sound itself when it arises, and there is knowing of the thought that appears about the sound. So what is appearing is the AE of sound and the AE of thought.

Do you really need a thought to tell you that you have heard a sound? Or does thought only identify and describe what the sound is?
I can only theorize that "I can't know the sound without thoughts". But I don't want to theorize this.
I cannot seem to push aside my thoughts in order to experience the sound directly.
No one is asking you to push aside thoughts. You would need to be the thinker of thoughts to be able to do that. You are being asked to just notice the thoughts and notice the direct experience of sound.

You are able to distinguish thought from sound are you not? Do you need thought to tell you that you have heard a sound?

Listen again to a different sound. Just notice thoughts arising automatically naming the sound and telling a story of what the sound is. But if you were to never have a thought again....would you never hear a sound again?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

User avatar
Everland
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:00 pm

Re: Thread for Su (asking for Forgetmenot as a guide)

Postby Everland » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:05 am

Hello, Kay
Yes...there is a recognition of the fact that a sound has arisen, but “It was a recognition of the sound”, is a thought. Without thought, how could it possibly be known that the sound is something called ‘white noise’?
Without thought informing me, I would not know the sound is 'white noise'. It is just this distinctive sound being heard, without a name/label.

Now had thought said that it was rain making the sound, how would you know without thought, if it was rain or white noise? Please don’t refer to any memories/thoughts here. Just go by actual experience of sound. Without thought, how would you know if it was rain or white noise?
Without thoughts, I would not know the name/label of the sounds. But.. I am able to distinguish or discriminate the sound itself of 'rain' from the sound 'white noise'. It appears that, when it comes to just the sounds itself, there seems to be some other mechinism at work (not thoughts), that makes me distinguish white noise sound from a rain sound.

Does a thought actually create the sound, or does it simply name it and describe it?
Thought does not create the sound, it simply names it.

Yes, there is a knowing (recognition) of sound itself when it arises, and there is knowing of the thought that appears about the sound. So what is appearing is the AE of sound and the AE of thought.
Do you really need a thought to tell you that you have heard a sound? Or does thought only identify and describe what the sound is?
I do not need thought to tell me I have heard a sound. But I would need thought to name the sound 'white noise'.

You are able to distinguish thought from sound are you not? Do you need thought to tell you that you have heard a sound?
Yes, I able to distinguish the thought from sound.
I have noticed that 'sound' and 'heard' are labels too, just like how 'white noise' is a label. Does this mean I would not even know that a 'sound' is being 'heard' without the labels 'sound' + 'heard' ?

Listen again to a different sound. Just notice thoughts arising automatically naming the sound and telling a story of what the sound is.
I am listening to the humming sounds from the refrigerator, and noticing my mind creating mental images and labelling the noise.

But if you were to never have a thought again....would you never hear a sound again?
Sounds will still occur even without thoughts.



Su

User avatar
forgetmenot
Posts: 5802
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Thread for Su (asking for Forgetmenot as a guide)

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:14 pm

Hi Su,
Yes...there is a recognition of the fact that a sound has arisen, but “It was a recognition of the sound”, is a thought. Without thought, how could it possibly be known that the sound is something called ‘white noise’?
Without thought informing me, I would not know the sound is 'white noise'. It is just this distinctive sound being heard, without a name/label.
Yes, it is simply an arising sound in the moment.
Yes, there is a knowing (recognition) of sound itself when it arises, and there is knowing of the thought that appears about the sound. So what is appearing is the AE of sound and the AE of thought.
Do you really need a thought to tell you that you have heard a sound? Or does thought only identify and describe what the sound is?
I do not need thought to tell me I have heard a sound. But I would need thought to name the sound 'white noise'.
Exactly…and we, at the moment, are exploring, and will continue to explore if what thought is pointing to is actual or just story.
You are able to distinguish thought from sound are you not? Do you need thought to tell you that you have heard a sound?
Yes, I able to distinguish the thought from sound.
I have noticed that 'sound' and 'heard' are labels too, just like how 'white noise' is a label. Does this mean I would not even know that a 'sound' is being 'heard' without the labels 'sound' + 'heard' ?
?? Are you not aware of sound, smell, taste, colour and sensation? Have you never heard a sound that you haven't known what made the sound? These are all labels that point to actual raw experience are they not? If, for example, you stopped labelling raw experience…would raw experience disappear? Would colour, which thought labels as objects, disappear if it wasn’t labelled as colour? Would what you are aware of as objects in the room you are in, disappear because labelling stopped?

Thought either points to actual experience or it points to thoughts about thought. The label ‘sound’, points to actual raw experience. The label ‘white noise’ points to AE of thought and not AE of ‘white noise’. This will become clearer with our next exercise.
Listen again to a different sound. Just notice thoughts arising automatically naming the sound and telling a story of what the sound is.
I am listening to the humming sounds from the refrigerator, and noticing my mind creating mental images and labelling the noise.
Great! So without thought labelling the sound, all there is, is AE of sound.
The thought ‘humming refrigerator’ is a description of the sound…and all labels and descriptions are AE of thought and not AE of sound.
What thought says about experience is NOT experience. This is evidenced by the fact that you cannot taste the word "sweet.”

Label ‘humming refrigerator’ is AE of thought and not AE of sound
Sound labelled as ‘humming refrigerator’ is AE of sound and not AE of humming refrigerator
Colour (image) labelled as ‘humming refrigerator’ is AE of colour and not AE of a humming refrigerator.
Thoughts about a humming refrigerator and what it does and is are AE of thought and not AE of a humming refrigerator.

So what is actually KNOWN is label + sound + colour + thoughts ABOUT a humming refrigerator, however, a humming refrigerator is not known.
But if you were to never have a thought again....would you never hear a sound again?
Sounds will still occur even without thoughts.
Exactly. Raw experience appears without the need of thought.

The interpretation of actual raw experience happens quickly. So while inquiring, labelling and interpretation will always appear, but it is possible to become aware of the thoughts that appear with, and overlay actual experience. Another key component of this exploration is being able to tell the difference between actual experience and the interpretation by thought of actual experience

For this exercise you will need an apple or any other piece of fruit will do.

Image

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure is the actual experience of colour and the actual experience of thought.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience - what you know for sure and is always here.

The label ‘apple’ is known
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

User avatar
Everland
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:00 pm

Re: Thread for Su (asking for Forgetmenot as a guide)

Postby Everland » Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:43 am

Hi Kay,

Thought either points to actual experience or it points to thoughts about thought. The label ‘sound’, points to actual raw experience. The label ‘white noise’ points to AE of thought and not AE of ‘white noise’. This will become clearer with our next exercise.
I see that 'sound' and 'white noise' are labels, and the labels themselves are thought, and need to verified if it is pointing to something actual.
So I see that the label "sound" points to AE of sound. But.. doesn't 'white noise' point to AE of a particular distintictive sound (as in, it is a unique sound)?- so in that case, isn't 'white noise' pointing to something actual?

Thank you, I will be doing the Apple exercise now..will post that soon.


Su

User avatar
forgetmenot
Posts: 5802
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Thread for Su (asking for Forgetmenot as a guide)

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:32 am

Hello Su,
So I see that the label "sound" points to AE of sound. But.. doesn't 'white noise' point to AE of a particular distintictive sound (as in, it is a unique sound)?- so in that case, isn't 'white noise' pointing to something actual?
Without thought, how would it be known that sounds are distinctive? They are simply sounds. It is thought that labels sounds as 'distinctive'! Do babies know that sounds are different...or are they simply sounds to them? Without thought how can it be determined that sound is something labelled as 'white noise'?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

User avatar
Everland
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:00 pm

Re: Thread for Su (asking for Forgetmenot as a guide)

Postby Everland » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:09 am

Hi Kay,

I did the Apple exercise a few times, I don't know what the right answers are..I am struggling a bit with the Apple exercise because it feels liggt thought is the one that divide the experience into catagories- into taste, colour, sensation, thought, smell. I've elaborated my confusion below:
Are you not aware of sound, smell, taste, colour and sensation? 
I am aware of these, but..HOW is it that I automatically know the difference between these? isn't it just another thought that informs me that thought is a thought, and that thought is a not a sound? Isn't it also thought that catagorizes whatever is experienced as either a sound, smell, taste, sight or sensation? A baby cannot tell apart a thought from a sound, but I myself can tell them apart. So.. without another thought/memory to inform me, I would not be able to recognize and tell apart a thought from a sound, correct?


Su


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest