Needs help

[Kaisa]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the self is an image in the mind. You can't find any other self than that.

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to know what all these other people here are talking about, I want to understand. Honestly, I'm also wondering if there could be something better for me. If only I could get rid of anxiety, shame, uncertainty, and hurting all the time. Maybe I think this seeing that there's no self is a way out of pain. Also, I've been reading for three years now about this stuff and still no answers. I want to know for myself and not keep repeating the stuff other people, "teachers" have said. The gathering of knowledge didn't help. Also, understanding and analyzing how I behave in different situations and why I do that doesn't help, I just end up thinking there's something wrong with me and blaming others for it.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Guidance - where and how to look. And accountability - that I need to go into it deeply even though I get frustrated and want to quit. That happens a lot. Questions, because it's difficult to move forward. I feel like I'm stuck and only get this thing theoretically and not through experience. I'm confused and don't know what the next step is.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been reading books and watching videos on youtube for three years. I've kept a diary where I analyze the "teachings", figuring out what they mean and thinking of examples from my life in the context of that teaching. Eckart Tolle, Byron Katie, Krishnamurti, and all the rest. Jed McKenna, too. For about 10 years now I've been obsessed with finding out what exactly is wrong with me through personality tests and every other kind of test... That gives me more knowledge about what could be the matter with me - social anxiety and an eating disorder. I'm going through the process of starting psychotherapy, next year maybe. This is seeking too, right? I'm doubtful about therapy, though. I'm wondering if it only gives me a temporary and partial solution to a specific problem, like to the anxiety. Obviously I've also been obsessing over my childhood for many years. In the sense that maybe finding out what went wrong there could help me. Yeah, I've been gathering knowledge and seeking for a long time.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Vivien]

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I can assist you with your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for to change?
What do you hope that should happen?
What is missing?

Vivien

[Kaisa]

Hello Vivien!
Thank you for assisting me and getting back to me so quickly.

Can we agree on these?

Yes, agreed!

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for?

I think I want to escape, so I’m looking for a way out. When I look at what drives me daily to do certain non-useful things, is that I don’t feel comfortable. I’m not comfortable with what’s going on now, it doesn’t feel right to me, and I want to change that. I watch a lot of TV and binge-eat regularly and those are ways of escaping. Not sure what exactly it is that I’m escaping from – emotions, maybe. But this is a temporary relief, the search continues.

And the spiritual search probably comes from the same desire to escape. I don’t like myself, what and who I think I am so I want to change that. I’m always thinking about how to improve myself and what kind of a person I’d like to become. Also, I had a couple of experiences along the way that fueled the need to keep searching. At those moments I felt completely at peace and that everything was alright, nothing bad was going on. It felt pure. I remember those experiences and would like to feel the same way again.

How would your life change if you find that?

I could rest. I could stop searching and be confident that there’s nothing more to look for. That there’s really no need to escape. I could face the difficult emotions without fear and do something to change the circumstances in my life that I’m not happy with. I’d be more relaxed and not afraid in relationships. I know these things aren’t, according to the guidelines on this website, really why we’re doing this, but it’s what I hope to happen.

What are you hoping for to change?

I’m hoping for changes in my relationships, the way I do my work, and my emotions. Simply put, I want the bad emotions to go away and good emotions to replace them. I want to be brave and not keep escaping things I find challenging in my life.

What do you hope that should happen?

I’m hoping to have a profound and deep realization that shifts the way I perceive myself. And that this realization results in making all those things I mentioned before happen.

What is missing?

Peace. I know what it feels like but I’m not at peace now. I’m always looking for answers and things to come in the future. I’m not comfortable here, in the mundane reality of my life. I feel like there should be something more, something exciting happening and that I’m missing out on life.

[Vivien]

Hi Kaisa,

What name would you like me to call you?

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

I think I want to escape, so I’m looking for a way out. When I look at what drives me daily to do certain non-useful things, is that I don’t feel comfortable. I’m not comfortable with what’s going on now, it doesn’t feel right to me, and I want to change that. I watch a lot of TV and binge-eat regularly and those are ways of escaping. Not sure what exactly it is that I’m escaping from – emotions, maybe. But this is a temporary relief, the search continues.

I hear you. I used to try to escape my emotions too. Actually, almost all of us do this. And yes, overeating is a way of escaping the unpleasant emotions that are present. It’s temporary numbing. But there is no ultimate relief, since the original problem is not dealt with.

There is no ultimate escape. And this inquiry won’t be able to give you an ultimate escape. No-one and nothing will be able to give you that.

Paradoxically, the way out is to stop escaping and letting those unpleasant feelings to be here, without resisting them. Just gently holding them. They are here to be noticed and felt.

The resistance to escape them are actually reinforcing them. The pushing away is actually a holding onto.
We are firmly hold onto which we want to push away.
Pushing = holding it

I don’t like myself, what and who I think I am so I want to change that. I’m always thinking about how to improve myself and what kind of a person I’d like to become.

What if I say to you that the I that says that doesn’t like itself, doesn’t really exist other than an idea?
What if not liking myself are just old recycled thoughts, coming up again and again, but without an actual real person behind them?

At those moments I felt completely at peace and that everything was alright, nothing bad was going on. It felt pure. I remember those experiences and would like to feel the same way again.

Peace is a state, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about seeing that emotions don’t belong to anything. They are free floating without being tied to or anchored to anything.

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.

I could face the difficult emotions without fear and do something to change the circumstances in my life that I’m not happy with. I’d be more relaxed and not afraid in relationships. I know these things aren’t, according to the guidelines on this website, really why we’re doing this, but it’s what I hope to happen.

Thank you for your honesty. So you basically want to change the person. The person that is actually not there. It’s a quite an impossible endeavour. Changing a ghost, a phantom.

How we relate is based on a conditinings learned in a lifetime, but especially in our early childhood. These are conditioned patters that won’t change just because the self is seen through.

When there is suffering, it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added on narrative.

And the personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through. All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. The falling away of conditioning can last at the end of the organism.

I’m hoping for changes in my relationships, the way I do my work, and my emotions. Simply put, I want the bad emotions to go away and good emotions to replace them.

OK, so you want to stop being a human :) We cannot get rid of half of the human emotions. That would be just more violence toward ourselves.

Freedom is not about pushing away or getting rid of unpleasant emotions. It’s quite the opposite. Feeling all emotions freely, without the desire to run away from them.

I’m hoping to have a profound and deep realization that shifts the way I perceive myself. And that this realization results in making all those things I mentioned before happen.

I hear you… basically you are after self-improvement. But what if there is no actual self at the core to improve? What if all there is to this self the story that you tell yourself?

Peace. I know what it feels like but I’m not at peace now. I’m always looking for answers and things to come in the future. I’m not comfortable here, in the mundane reality of my life. I feel like there should be something more, something exciting happening and that I’m missing out on life.

What if “I am missing out on life” is not actually a feeling, but just an unexamined thought taken for granted?

The thing is that it cannot be know in advance how it will be. Why? Because all expectations come on behalf of a separate self, who is always in a search for peace, happiness, lack of fear and suffering. We simply cannot imagine it, since we cannot step outside from the separate self’s perspective. We can only imagine it within the dream of me. The illusionary me is simply unable to imagine how it would be if it were discovered to be just a fictional character and not a reality. It can only imagine what it wants for itself.

Please ponder on my comments to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?

Vivien

[Kaisa]

You can call me Kaisa, I didn't want to use my real name but that's close enough :)

Paradoxically, the way out is to stop escaping and letting those unpleasant feelings to be here, without resisting them. Just gently holding them. They are here to be noticed and felt.

I felt something reading this, maybe sadness. That could be a form of resistance. I certainly have not done what you suggested. I’ve been pushing emotions away and it feels violent and unkind. I haven’t learned what to do instead and how to hold the emotions gently.

What if I say to you that the I that says that doesn’t like itself, doesn’t really exist other than an idea?

This seems strange. It seems impossible to think about it like that. I’m wondering why this keeps happening, what is keeping those old recycled thoughts alive. But yes, there are thoughts that criticize the self (the image) and there is an assumption that I am the one ”speaking”, doing the criticizing.

So you basically want to change the person. The person that is actually not there.

Yes, this is impossible when you put it like that. If I saw through the illusion of the self, then it wouldn’t matter if that image was pleasant or not. Wouldn’t matter if the self-image was positive or negative and that feels like a relief.

How we relate is based on a conditionings learned in a lifetime, but especially in our early childhood. These are conditioned patters that won’t change just because the self is seen through.

When there is suffering, it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self.

This resonated with me. I can see that I have beliefs from the past situations that influence how I interact with people now. But it was a little disappointing to hear this – that the conditioned patterns won’t change.

Those wounds are not a person/self.

Here I’m wondering how then there can be wounds if there’s no self. They have to stick to something to appear in the first place and then for me to have them even now.

Freedom is not about pushing away or getting rid of unpleasant emotions. It’s quite the opposite. Feeling all emotions freely, without the desire to run away from them.

This seems like an alien concept to me. Is it even possible to stop running away? Maybe. I don’t know how to do this.

But what if there is no actual self at the core to improve? What if all there is to this self the story that you tell yourself?

This again made me feel something. There was a tight feeling in the throat and eyes watering. Don’t know what to call that.

What if “I am missing out on life” is not actually a feeling, but just an unexamined thought taken for granted?

I’m open to examine this thought. It would be nice not to believe in it so much, because it’s very stressful to think like this.

The illusionary me is simply unable to imagine how it would be if it were discovered to be just a fictional character and not a reality. It can only imagine what it wants for itself.

I see this. I have had many thoughts about what it would be like to finally get this thing. All of those imaginations contain the idea of getting something from this work – something good for me, but I get that this is not what I’m here for. Getting something good can’t be the result, because I don’t know what will happen. I know that logically it’s pointless to keep expecting some specific things from this. I will try not to cling to those expectations.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Yes. I won't be reading or watching anything related to spirituality from now on. Also, I've been experimenting with daily meditation but I assume this is also a distraction, so I'm stopping that.

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?

Yes!

[Vivien]

Hi Kaisa,

Here I’m wondering how then there can be wounds if there’s no self. They have to stick to something to appear in the first place and then for me to have them even now.

Not really. Wounds don’t have to stick to anything, and actually the don’t stick to anything. A wound is nothing else than a conditioned pattern of feeling and thinking.

In order to have negative thoughts and feel unpleasant sensations, no self is needed. We will look into this later.

This seems like an alien concept to me. Is it even possible to stop running away? Maybe. I don’t know how to do this.

I suggest to try out an experiment.

Next time when the urge come to escape this moment and overeat instead, I suggest to do this instead.

When you feel the urge to eat when not actually hungry, just sit for 5-10 minutes and just observe what is here now. Just notice what is it exactly that you try to avoid or escape.

Be curious, like a scientist, who wants to understand the mechanism of this phenomenon.

After 5-10 minutes, if the urge to eat is still there, then you can eat, you don’t have to hold yourself back.

But when you eat, eat consciously. When we overeat, we eat unconsciously, meaning we are just quickly eating without really noticing the flavour of the food, the textures in the mouth. So eat as consciously as you can. Observer every movement as you reach to the next piece of food, observe how the hand is putting the food inside the mouth, notice the smell, the flavour, the texture, really experience the process of eating.

And don’t reach for the next piece of food, until you fully chewed it and swallowed it.

Notice how you chew, notice all the sensations in the mouth and in the jaw, and notice how it feels to swallow the food.
Notice the aftertaste in your mouth. After you swallowed it, just watch if there is an actual desire to have another piece or bite. And just wait for a few seconds, to investigate the desire itself before you actually reach for the next piece or have the next bite.

Notice, when your belly is full and there is satiation. If there is still a desire to eat, just observe it for a few minutes before reaching to the next bite.

Notice any thoughts that might arise. Notice if there is any judgement or impatient to get the next piece.

Just be aware of what is happening. Be conscious of the desire and the experience of eating.

Let me know what you discover.

Vivien

[Kaisa]

When you feel the urge to eat when not actually hungry, just sit for 5-10 minutes and just observe what is here now. Just notice what is it exactly that you try to avoid or escape.

Thanks, this sounds good and I will try it when the urge hits, it should be interesting. Today it didn’t come. Probably because I was out of the house most of the day - nowadays I'm studying at home. It's usually much easier to avoid bingeing when I'm out because it's embarrassing to eat with others around me.

I tried to eat consciously at every meal and it was interesting to see what would happen. I was really hungry in the morning before I had had breakfast and I completely forgot about the exercise. My mind was somewhere else, I was planning a future event while eating. Halfway through I realized that I was supposed to be doing something else. I slowed down and focused on looking at the food and chewing it. Hunger had also diminished by then, which I realized only after I started to focus. I could do it for a while and then started to plan what I would be writing here about the exercise. Then stopped that and focused again on the eating. There was an impulse to reach for the next piece quickly before I had swallowed what I was chewing on at the moment, even though the pace, overall, had slowed down.

Lunch
Again, was in a hurry to eat and I was really hungry when I started but this time remembered to focus. Thoughts were there and it was a little more difficult to focus on the eating because I ate at a public place and people’s talking interrupted the focusing. Even so, it was actually kind of nice to do this exercise. I appreciated the food and having time to just sit down and have a meal. Usually I don't even enjoy eating and I don't appreciate the food. It became clear why I tend to eat a lot. It happens because I’m constantly busy thinking (usually planning what to do next) rather than actually paying attention to what I’m doing, just like you said. This time I felt full before I had finished and didn’t even want to eat bread with the main dish even though I had it there in front of me. That was new :)

Dinner
Felt the urge to just sit on my bed and watch TV as I ate, but sat down at the table instead. Was in a hurry again and it was more difficult to slow down and focus. Noticed some tension in the body, mainly in the shoulders. I had to actually put the fork down a couple of times, take a breath, and walk around the room to be able to focus and slow down.

[Vivien]

Hi Kaisa,

You noticed some important things. Like that we are so caught up in thinking that we hardly ever pay attention to our immediate experience, like to the taste of food.

Please continue noticing and observing how you eat. Make it into a habit. This can help a lot to discover more about overeating, and at the same time you can learn to appreciate the pleasure of eating :)

You can also experiment with other activities too. Like washing your hands, having a shower, or just simply walking, or waiting in a line.

Just notice how often your focus is on thoughts and not on what is actually happening here now.

You can also notice that the content of those thoughts are almost always about something fictional, something that is not happening here now. Rather it’s about fantasizing or being anxious of the future, or replaying or even ruminating about something that happened in the past.

When you catch yourself being immersed in an inner movie, just stop for a moment and notice the here and now experience. Notice all the sensations and emotions that are present, the colors, shapes, sounds that are here, waiting for you to notice.

Let me know what you discover.

Vivien

[Kaisa]

I'm sorry this is coming in so late. Today (yesterday) was overwhelming emotionally speaking and I couldn't do the exercise as well as I would have liked.

I was at a lecture that was about eating disorders, and the subject triggered some tension and emotions in me. My eyes were watering as I listened to the lecturer and my body tensed up occasionally. After the lecture, my friend and I decided to go to a pub and we stayed there for 5 hours just talking. It was the first time in 5 years she opened up to me and it was rough. She's been through a lot and what she told me brought up strong emotions. I felt sadness, fear, and guilt. The sensations in the body were really strong. I was shaking - I felt tremors in my legs and stomach, hands were shaking, too. I cried a little. I was tense for many hours. I noticed that when I went into the story of what could maybe happen in the future, I was more afraid and tense. When I just listened to her and looked at her, it was okay. I mean there wasn't anything real to be afraid of there, at that moment. I was imagining the scary things in my head. That realization still didn't help with the emotions and maybe it didn't even have to. I was surprised by the strength of the emotion and what it caused in the body, but I didn't completely wish it away. At that moment I was sad and it was okay to be sad. It was okay for my friend, too. We were going through the situation together, both experiencing strong emotions.

When the shaking and the imagining things were getting too much, I kind of focused on the music and took a few conscious breaths, whenever there were natural pauses in between our talking.

Right now as I'm writing this, I'm still shaking and there is tension in the shoulders. Tremors seem to be coming from the general area of my tummy. Breathing is shallow and a bit quicker than normally. Breathing deeply helps a little.

Anyway, this was all I could do. I'll plan a few simple activities for today to do the exercise properly.

[Vivien]

Hi Kaisa,

I noticed that when I went into the story of what could maybe happen in the future, I was more afraid and tense. When I just listened to her and looked at her, it was okay. I mean there wasn't anything real to be afraid of there, at that moment. I was imagining the scary things in my head.

This is an excellent observation. In the present experience there is nothing to be afraid of, only thoughts provide a fearful story. And if we take this story seriously, if we believe it to be real… then bummm! an illusion is created, that what the story is about is here now, and is real, actually happening.

But if you can stop for a moment and connect with the present sounds, colors, sensations, then you can watch these thoughts from a distance, without being lost in them. So you can see them for what they are, only thoughts passing by.

That realization still didn't help with the emotions and maybe it didn't even have to. I was surprised by the strength of the emotion and what it caused in the body, but I didn't completely wish it away.

We are not trying to wish away any emotion. That would be just more violence under the cloak of a wish. If there is an emotion here, then it’s already here. It’s here to be felt. It doesn’t want anything from us, it’s just to be recognized and felt. Just notice that an emotion can never hurt you. It might not be pleasant, but cannot do anything to you. Since you are just observing it. You are NOT it.

At that moment I was sad and it was okay to be sad. It was okay for my friend, too. We were going through the situation together, both experiencing strong emotions.

Beautiful. Yes, when there is sadness, then there is sadness. And that’s ok. It’s ok to be sad. It’s ok to feel unpleasant emotions and sensations. Nothing is permanent. So it passes sooner or later, on its own accord.

When the shaking and the imagining things were getting too much, I kind of focused on the music and took a few conscious breaths, whenever there were natural pauses in between our talking.

Very good. The present moment is the exit from the fictional movie that is playing in our heads :) It’s the exit to reality.

Right now as I'm writing this, I'm still shaking and there is tension in the shoulders. Tremors seem to be coming from the general area of my tummy. Breathing is shallow and a bit quicker than normally. Breathing deeply helps a little.

Can you allow these feelings and sensations to be here?
What happens when you don’t label them, don’t even call them as shaking, tension or tremor?

Can you gently allow them to be here? Just softly, tenderly, lovingly holding them without any agenda. Without wanting them to change, to go away, or wishing them to be different.

Can you be friends with them?

If you sit for just a few minutes, is there any problem with this moment as it is?
If you don’t go to thoughts, is there anything missing in this very moment?
If you ignore all the stories, are you OK right now?

Vivien

[Kaisa]

Can you allow these feelings and sensations to be here?
What happens when you don’t label them, don’t even call them as shaking, tension or tremor?

This was a good hint. As I named the sensations "shaking" and "tremors", at the same time it created a conflict. "Tremors" are not normal, according to thoughts, because when I experience something called "shaking" I think I should not be experiencing that. As if it's wrong to experience it or it in itself is wrong. But when I just look at the sensation that doesn't have, or need a label, it's completely different. It's there among other sensations. No different from anything else, even though it might be a little stronger than the sensation of air moving through the nostrils, for example. It isn't good or bad. The sensations don't have to go away or change when there's no labeling. It's actually quite pleasant to just sit with it, feeling it. It doesn't feel painful.

When there's a story and I'm focusing on it, there's obviously something wrong with the present moment. If I believe "I need to calm down, I need to go to sleep now or I won't be alert for tomorrow's lecture" blah blah blah, there's a problem. With no story I don't have to do anything, nothing to change, nothing wrong. I'm sitting here, that's it, end of story.

Before I read your reply I was actually listening to the sound of rain on spotify, thinking it would calm me down. Also, I made a cup of tea to get rid of the sensation in the throat and also to calm down. That seems a bit silly now. And those things were actually keeping me away from being here and present. I was doing something that had a purpose, and my mind was fixed on it. It was really pleasant to simply stop doing that, stop focusing on the story and to just sit here experiencing the sensations.

If you sit for just a few minutes, is there any problem with this moment as it is?
If you don’t go to thoughts, is there anything missing in this very moment?
If you ignore all the stories, are you OK right now?

There's nothing missing from this moment if I don't believe the thoughts and just stay with experience. I'm absolutely fine, "shaking" sensation present, and all. I'm very much in trouble if I believe the story - "how will I be able to talk to my friend tomorrow?", or so I think. Actually even with that troublesome scenario in my mind, I'm fine.

[Vivien]

Hi Kaisa,

But when I just look at the sensation that doesn't have, or need a label, it's completely different. It's there among other sensations. No different from anything else, even though it might be a little stronger than the sensation of air moving through the nostrils, for example. It isn't good or bad. The sensations don't have to go away or change when there's no labeling. It's actually quite pleasant to just sit with it, feeling it. It doesn't feel painful.

Excellent observations :)

There's nothing missing from this moment if I don't believe the thoughts and just stay with experience. I'm absolutely fine, "shaking" sensation present, and all. I'm very much in trouble if I believe the story - "how will I be able to talk to my friend tomorrow?", or so I think. Actually even with that troublesome scenario in my mind, I'm fine.

Yes.

Just notice that the present experience is always here waiting for you to notice it.
And it’s always neutral. Or not even that.. it has no characteristics at all. Neither good, nor bad.
Since good or bad are just mental concepts, and not actual experiences.

Just notice that thoughts come and go.
Is there any thought that you are making to happen, to come and go? Or they just appear and dissolve naturally, on their own?

Vivien

[Kaisa]

Is there any thought that you are making to happen, to come and go? Or they just appear and dissolve naturally, on their own?

If I look at the content, then I want to say that it's mine. I mean it like this: When I read your questions and started looking at thoughts, there came the usual story of me with a unique history, the way I grew up, where I belong, my family etc. That this unique past belongs to me and is mine. Thoughts are kind of giving all this as evidence that the content is mine and that it's about me.

But when I look at a single thought, it doesn't feel true to say that I am making it happen - making it appear and disappear. I can't force a thought to go away, it has its own "will". And the appearing of a thought isn't controlled, either. One thought seems to follow another, as in "I'm hungry" -> "There are eggs and some cereal in the kitchen" -> "I should be eating eggs instead of cereal". Those are logical following thoughts that are linked to the first one, which came as a reaction to the sensation in the stomach. But I can't say what this means. So what? There's a capability to make plans.

There's a tendency to evaluate everything and think that everything is about me. Evaluating the thinking process, as a whole - for example "I'm constantly thinking too much". The content links all of the thoughts together and puts a self in it, so to speak. Of course it doesn't actually do that, a thought can't do anything, it's not an intellectual thing on its own. So that one individual thought (the story about me thinking too much) seems to give the impression that all of this is mine. That there's ownership.

But do I make all this happen? No, it doesn't seem like that. Thoughts are coming and going naturally on their own. I don't control the content because I don't control the coming of a thought. I don't make myself think about the past, the thought just comes. I don't create the content of the thought and I can't know what the content of the next thought will be. I don't make myself think about the letters, the words and sentences when I'm writing this. That happens without a controller.

[Vivien]

Hi Kaisa,

But do I make all this happen? No, it doesn't seem like that. Thoughts are coming and going naturally on their own. I don't control the content because I don't control the coming of a thought. I don't make myself think about the past, the thought just comes. I don't create the content of the thought and I can't know what the content of the next thought will be. I don't make myself think about the letters, the words and sentences when I'm writing this. That happens without a controller.

Nice investigation.

Now, I would like to ask you to look at this even closer. Please spend a whole day looking at this again and again, as often as you can in the midst of your everyday life. When it seems like or feel like that “I am thinking” pause for a moment and investigate.

What do you do in order to think?
How do you make (or birth) any thought into existence?

Vivien

[Kaisa]

Hello Vivien! Here's what I found today.

What do you do in order to think?
How do you make (or birth) any thought into existence?

It seems that I don't do anything to birth thoughts into existence. There is silence between thoughts and then one arrives. They are kind of like reactions to sensory information, to what is perceived. I notice a text from my friend, and an image of her pops into my head. Then that becomes a story about her, about what happened yesterday, how I got involved into everything and so on. It's like a movie. It seems that attention directed toward the movie is what keeps it going. If I'm interrupted, let's say my phone rings, the movie disappears suddenly.

I eat a sandwich and the action brings about a thought, which says "I should not be eating this whole thing, I felt so bloated this morning, and it won't be easy to get rid of the extra weight." It's a conditioned way of thinking. It started many years ago when someone told me to lose weight for the first time and I was obsessed with the idea ever since. Someone told me (a nurse, a TV show, whatever) which foods were good and bad, and that became a voice in me. Now the evaluating thinking pattern comes up whenever I eat something.

In order to keep thinking about a specific thing, there needs to be attention on the thinking. I was distracted at today's lecture and didn't for a few minutes listen to the lecturer at all. I was arguing with myself whether to go home to see my parents this weekend or not. So, turned around, maybe inattention to what is happening now brings about thoughts more frequently. When I focused again on listening to the lecturer, thoughts were further apart, there was more space between the individual thoughts and therefore better focusing on the sounds happening.

I was lying down on my bed, ready to take a nap. I had two pillows under my head, which felt uncomfortable. The reaching for the pillow and a thought "I should take one of these away" were simultaneous. Thought came because there was an uncomfortable sensation.

There's also a commentary going on if I'm just sitting or lying down, not really doing anything. Thoughts about the future - what I should be writing down here, what I should say to my future boss (how to make myself look better; appear smarter and more competent in his eyes), how to actually be more competent and what I should do to prepare for that job, what kind of emails I should write to the therapists I want to meet etc. How do I make this commentary happen? It just happens on its own. Why is it there? I don't know.