I'm starting to sense what is not there, but I don't think I'm fully there

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joeynurture
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Re: I'm starting to sense what is not there, but I don't think I'm fully there

Postby joeynurture » Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:00 pm

Hello Vivien,

Yes I'm here. Thank you for bearing with me.

Since I last wrote a perception and feeling kind of switched in me. The easiest way I can go about explaining it is that I stopped looking and seeking.

I just to be and see and feel in most moments. That is still going on, it's true now.

Simply re-reading my answers and then your questions made me disinterested in looking for answers further. It felt pointless to look for THAT SOMETHING, an explanation. It's also felt a bit pointless carrying on discussing this matter (sorry for being blunt, I sense you know what I mean).

I still have this “I don’t realise a voice is inside my head but it's there, commenting on what is happening and what should happen” parts in my days, but they just flow through. Is it a character? or a "Me"? I don't know.
When these thoughts are taking me to places that are full of life and spontenous and focuses on what is next I don't notice or don't care, just go with them.
When I have bad/anxiety inducing/self-judgemental thoughts, though, I usually catch them, and realize there is no originator, thinker and feeler.
and it will all pass and these thoughts have no meaning and weight on me, they are not "real" (or predetermined or necessarily true)
and I can concentrate on the moment and then.. the moment and the moment and so on. I slip back into just being.
and it all goes away.
And that for me, is good.
That is not being in a “chokehold” of the character that I used to label malovelent. It's all just thoughts, coming and then going. I don’t take heed of what “He” thinks or wants or why he is anxious.
I can just be.

Some of your questions were really useful, especially in your blog post.

"Does life need to protect itself from life?"
That is an excellent question. And feels silly. I don’t know why this protection is happening. It should not. There is no protection needed, it's just all happening and it should be "left alone to happen".

"To keep the illusion that you are separate from life?"
I feel strongly that there is no separation. I feel that I'm just "in a being mode". Not sure if that makes sense.

"Can you see that stopping seeking is finding?"
Yes. I have arrived to this conclusion.

"Can you see that anything you could ever find is already, presently here-now?"
In most moments, I feel that now. Right now I do.

Weirdly, as I'm typing all this I get some anxiety rushing up in me. So I'll stop now.

This is all I can share at this moment.

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Vivien
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Re: I'm starting to sense what is not there, but I don't think I'm fully there

Postby Vivien » Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:37 am

Hi Joey,
The easiest way I can go about explaining it is that I stopped looking and seeking.
There is a big difference between seeking and looking at what is here now. Looking is not seeking. Looking is noticing what is here now in this moment, and what isn’t.
Can you see the difference?
I still have this “I don’t realise a voice is inside my head but it's there, commenting on what is happening and what should happen” parts in my days, but they just flow through. Is it a character? or a "Me"? I don't know.
If the answer is not clear then the illusion hasn’t seen through fully.

Looking to see if these is an actual character or me commenting is not equal to seek answers to mind-made questions on behalf of a separate self.

Stop seeking for answers is not equal to stop looking what is and what isn’t.
One is about to go for a quest on behalf of a me, and the other is to recognize if there is an actual me here now that could go for a quest at all.
When these thoughts are taking me to places that are full of life and spontenous and focuses on what is next I don't notice or don't care, just go with them.
OK. You might have misunderstood the post I wrote about seeking for answers. It’s one thing to seek for intellectual answers on behalf of a me, and that’s another thing to recognize that all there is is this moment and there is no me here at all, other than an idea.

If you say that I don’t care and just go with them, then there is still a me who now has a stance of not caring, rather going with a stream of thoughts.

If this is the case, then is not freedom. This is just another belief for the self.

So what is it that goes with thoughts?

I feel that I'm just "in a being mode".
And what is it that is in a being mode?
What is it exactly that could move back and forth between modes?

Weirdly, as I'm typing all this I get some anxiety rushing up in me. So I'll stop now.
If anxiety comes up by looking, then there is a story going on about me. There might be something that this me doesn’t want to see? Or maybe he is afraid of negative consequences of discovering something?

And what is it exactly that wanted to avoid the anxiety by stopping?

What does anxiety happen TO? What is having it?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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joeynurture
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Re: I'm starting to sense what is not there, but I don't think I'm fully there

Postby joeynurture » Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:11 pm

Thank you Vivien.
The easiest way I can go about explaining it is that I stopped looking and seeking.
There is a big difference between seeking and looking at what is here now. Looking is not seeking. Looking is noticing what is here now in this moment, and what isn’t.
Can you see the difference?
Yes. In this case I think including the word looking was not appropriate. I'm looking in your usage of the word - I'm looking at the moment and 'live it', but I'm not seeking an answer/solution/future desired state, as I did before.
I still have this “I don’t realise a voice is inside my head but it's there, commenting on what is happening and what should happen” parts in my days, but they just flow through. Is it a character? or a "Me"? I don't know.
If the answer is not clear then the illusion hasn’t seen through fully. Looking to see if these is an actual character or me commenting is not equal to seek answers to mind-made questions on behalf of a separate self.
That is possible. I don't know. What I know is that I notice the thoughts and I accept them as manufactured, which is natural. There is no need to identify with them.
Stop seeking for answers is not equal to stop looking what is and what isn’t.
One is about to go for a quest on behalf of a me, and the other is to recognize if there is an actual me here now that could go for a quest at all.
I understand what you are writing here, but I can't tell the difference - what is actually happening in "me". Which is disheartening. Overall, as yesterday, there is a bit of jadedness about this process coming up. It's hard to put into words - just like it's probably hard for you to make someone see something that is not there with written instructions?
When these thoughts are taking me to places that are full of life and spontenous and focuses on what is next I don't notice or don't care, just go with them.
OK. You might have misunderstood the post I wrote about seeking for answers. It’s one thing to seek for intellectual answers on behalf of a me, and that’s another thing to recognize that all there is is this moment and there is no me here at all, other than an idea. If you say that I don’t care and just go with them, then there is still a me who now has a stance of not caring, rather going with a stream of thoughts. If this is the case, then is not freedom. This is just another belief for the self.

So what is it that goes with thoughts?
Again, I might have used the wrong words or I interpret them differently. In the past 4-5 days I regularly (and sometimes consistenstly) had the these 'mini-realizations' where I noticed and acknowledged exactly this: "there is is this moment and there is no me here at all, other than an idea.". Yet, as before, where I tried to explain this on-and-off-switch, these realizations don't 'stick' and it feels like I drift back in certain circumstances to identifying with the Me character. I understand you say this is not possible, and once you see through you are done. In that case, I'm not done. I don't know.
As for the 'conscious not caring' part, that is not happening like you described. I don't make that decision, I just characterized it this way as I reflected back on what is happening for my answer. So rather, I just "flow" instead of not caring. Thus I cannot answer the "what goes with thoughts" questions. I'll try to look more carefully in this moments to see if there is anything attached.

I feel that I'm just "in a being mode".
And what is it that is in a being mode?
What is it exactly that could move back and forth between modes?
I can only refer back to my last answer. I don't think there are 'mode-switches' and I cannot do them consciously. It's just at certain moments I feel THERE, in that moment, and there is clear realization that there is no ME, but in a next phase of the day, I get washed away by this Characters demands and sometimes I do identify with him...
Weirdly, as I'm typing all this I get some anxiety rushing up in me. So I'll stop now.
If anxiety comes up by looking, then there is a story going on about me. There might be something that this me doesn’t want to see? Or maybe he is afraid of negative consequences of discovering something?

And what is it exactly that wanted to avoid the anxiety by stopping?

What does anxiety happen TO? What is having it?
The anxiety in this situation, and in similar ones, is a feeling of TOO MUCH. There is a deep realization, a rush of feelings coming from my spine and my bones, somewhere deep... IT IS HAPPENING. THERE IS A LIVING CREATURE. IT ALL MAKES SENSE. And it seems like it's too much and I can't bear it. I'm not sure what is protected there, and what it is happening to. A story that has been dominating my life and the prospect of that falling apart is ... unbelievable to the remnants of the 'believer' of that story?

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Vivien
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Re: I'm starting to sense what is not there, but I don't think I'm fully there

Postby Vivien » Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:17 am

Hi Joey,
That is possible. I don't know. What I know is that I notice the thoughts and I accept them as manufactured, which is natural. There is no need to identify with them.
OK. But what is it that is accepting thoughts as manufactured?
What is it that has no need to identify with them?

Is there an I outside of the thought story ABOUT an I?
It's hard to put into words - just like it's probably hard for you to make someone see something that is not there with written instructions?
I also do face-to-face sessions, in case if you are interested. I’m sending you a private message about it, so look out for it.
Yet, as before, where I tried to explain this on-and-off-switch, these realizations don't 'stick' and it feels like I drift back in certain circumstances to identifying with the Me character. I understand you say this is not possible, and once you see through you are done.
No, I am not saying that. When the self is seeing through that is not the end. Far from it. It’s actually just the beginning, step #1. When the self is seen through there is still flip-flopping for most people. Why? Since there are many other beliefs and conditionings that keeps this flip-flopping happening. And until these condtionings are not looked at and dealt with, there will be flip-flopping. The work is not done when the self is seen through.

Please go back to my reply to your expectations, and read it carefully. You will see what I’m referring to.
In that case, I'm not done. I don't know.
Of course not. :) first, there is no I, no person, no entity, no Joey to be done. There is nobody that could be done.
Secondly, there is no real end to this investigation. There are millions of beliefs we hold onto, and those won’t fall away in an instant.

Looking is a way of living. Even when the self-illusion is seen through, looking shouldn’t stop. As we talked about this before, this is just the beginning, far from being an end. So if you want to things to deeper and more and more conditionings to fall away, you have to adopt looking into your daily life. With time it becomes a habit, which happens automatically.

This is not some quick process, but a journey of a lifetime, an orientation to see life from a different angle, each day is an opportunity to discover a little more.
V: And what is it that is in a being mode?
What is it exactly that could move back and forth between modes?
J: I can only refer back to my last answer. I don't think there are 'mode-switches' and I cannot do them consciously
But the questions aren’t about a switch, rather about an I, an entity, a me, a person, a character, Joey, anything that is moving between two ways of being and relating?
The anxiety in this situation, and in similar ones, is a feeling of TOO MUCH. There is a deep realization, a rush of feelings coming from my spine and my bones, somewhere deep... IT IS HAPPENING. THERE IS A LIVING CREATURE. IT ALL MAKES SENSE. And it seems like it's too much and I can't bear it. I'm not sure what is protected there, and what it is happening to. A story that has been dominating my life and the prospect of that falling apart is ... unbelievable to the remnants of the 'believer' of that story?
Yes, that’s possible.

If there is an anxiety, then there is fear. There is some underlying story lurking in the background making conclusion what does this realization MEAN TO ME, or ABOUT ME, and that triggers these unpleasant overloaded-ness in the body. That it’s too much.

But fear is to those imagined outcomes what realization would mean to me or about me. It’s all about me. The fear is to the story, which you might be unconscious of now.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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joeynurture
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Re: I'm starting to sense what is not there, but I don't think I'm fully there

Postby joeynurture » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:51 pm

I wanted to say I’m sorry for not responding in time and not keeping my original commitment.

Then there was a thought: Vivien would probably ask - who is sorry exactly?

I sat down, and let the thoughts come and go.

The main observations:
- There is no strong “voice in my head” that comes up, there is no character that actually has a voice that I can hear or deliberately constructs sentences for "me"
- Thoughts kind of slip in to the consciousness naturally, and I rather “feel them” than “think them” if that make sense..they flow through..they do have meaning and contructed from words, though
- Thoughts come from..nowhere and end up going nowhere. Accepting this is easy for me, and I don’t believe there is an originator and for sure these are not “my thoughts”
- There are a lot less thoughts than before in ‘sessions’ like this, everything feels calmer

But the ‘Joey good person’ character feels the need to explain himself now?
The situation is that my life took some weird turns and my day-to-day commitments to family especially, and this body of …mine(?) (due to health issues) have significantly increased. I cannot carve out time and properly reflect on what we discuss every day. So I just need more time between posts. I’m not sure if this is acceptable. I hope so.

Anyways.
Thank you for your offer on the face to face coaching. This is something that might be useful in the future.

Going back to your comments.

“But the questions aren’t about a switch, rather about an I, an entity, a me, a person, a character, Joey, anything that is moving between two ways of being and relating”

The current perception says that there is a fluid character that I identify with “in my head”, which sometimes owns the thoughts that appear and builds up narratives. It has no distinct voice, rather feels like a conductor that mutters from time to time(?). This character sometimes subsides, and a just ‘being’ phase comes, and I just Am. No needs. No plans. No whys. Just “flow”. This is how I can reflect on these sentences now.

“If there is an anxiety, then there is fear. There is some underlying story lurking in the background making conclusion what does this realization MEAN TO ME, or ABOUT ME, and that triggers these unpleasant overloaded-ness in the body. That it’s too much.

But fear is to those imagined outcomes what realization would mean to me or about me. It’s all about me. The fear is to the story, which you might be unconscious of now.”

I think this is totally correct. There is certainly resistance and protection by a Me. I would not be fearful and anxious otherwise. I get that now. “I” cannot let these walls TOTALLY break down, as it feels too risky. Peeking through some knocked out bricks is allowed. That is what is happening now, I think.

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Vivien
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Re: I'm starting to sense what is not there, but I don't think I'm fully there

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:53 am

Hi Joey,
The current perception says that there is a fluid character that I identify with “in my head”,
What is it exactly that identifies with a ‘fluid character’?
What is it that needs an identity?
What does identity stick to? What is it that it hooks onto?
What is the glue of identity made of?
It has no distinct voice, rather feels like a conductor that mutters from time to time(?).
FEELS like a conductor? Is this an actually FEELING?
Or rather this is just a thought taken for granted?
This character sometimes subsides, and a just ‘being’ phase comes, and I just Am.
What is this I that just am?

What is this I, here now, as you observe it?
Where is the exact location of this I?
How bit it is?
What shape it has?
Texture?
Color?
Temperature?

“I” cannot let these walls TOTALLY break down, as it feels too risky.
What is it that needs protection?
And protection from what?
What could happen?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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joeynurture
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Re: I'm starting to sense what is not there, but I don't think I'm fully there

Postby joeynurture » Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:45 pm

Hello Vivien,

I just wanted to post an update since I have not posted a while.

I'm trying to be as truthful as possible: I've lost the thread of pursuing liberation with this method. I got tired and anxious and disinterested, when I read more and more and more questions coming at me it felt like criticism and attacks (I came to the conclusion that this was a protective mechanism from deep down, a reflection of my feelings back onto this process for "probing ME").
I could not sit down and be calm and ponder your question, although I've tried a couple of times since your last post.

So for the time being I cannot continue this process. I hope that's all right with you.

Perhaps I was not ready, perhaps I just got washed over by everything happening in my life (things which I will not list here, but major changes) -- perhaps the pressure of "posting daily" was too much with everything going on and somehow felt this is not something I can pursue now. Perhaps.

I feel sad writing these words though. I would like to continue when I feel ready.

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Vivien
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Re: I'm starting to sense what is not there, but I don't think I'm fully there

Postby Vivien » Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:08 am

Hi Joey,

Thank you for your honesty. These questions are not criticism or attacks on you, rather just pointers where to look and what to investigate. Your guess is probably right, probably there are some beliefs in the background stemming from childhood, and that's why you perceive the questions as attacks and criticism.
I feel sad writing these words though. I would like to continue when I feel ready.
Yes. This thread will be left open for you, you can post here Hi Joey,

Thank you for your honesty. These questions are not attacks on you, rather just pointers where to look and what to investigate. And definitely not criticism. Your guess is probably right, probably there are some beliefs in the background stemming from childhood, and that's why you perceive the questions as attacks and criticism.
I feel sad writing these words though. I would like to continue when I feel ready.
Yes. This thread will be left open for you, you can post here whenever you feel ready.

All the best,
Vivienyou feel ready.

All the best,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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