Subside the story

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NYX
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Re: Subside the story

Postby NYX » Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:34 pm

Hi Vivien,
Where is this I exactly in this very moment?
Also, how bit is this I?
What shape it has?
What texture?
What color?
Does it have a sound?
Temperature?
Can it be tasted it?
Smell it?
The I is sitting on a chair, at the dining table, in the kitchen with both feet crossed and up on another chair, in front of a laptop and 1.5m away from the TV. Both hands typing, two fingers are strapped together because one is dislocated. Left hand has orange nails, the other - white.
I is 5''4, around 65kg. It has small hands, short legs, size 38 feet. Pear shaped body. Tan skin, with light hairs all over. Veins are visible on the hands. Creased skin around joints. Dry skin around fingernails. Brown hair, tied up in a bun.
Sound appears when it breathes, also when fingers tap the keyboard, and as it shifts in the chair.
The I feels warm when touched, the skin is soft. The middle part of the body feels warmer due to the clothes I has on.
There is taste of lemon water in the mouth. Sweet perfume smell. Stray hairs are slightly visible. The skin on the face is slightly bumpy and rough.

I see now that every time you ask a similar question I look for an answer by thinking...and the thinking turns to the story instead of the physical/reality.
When I turn to thoughts, that question becomes a lot harder to answer than when investigating the reality. I struggled a lot more last time with a couple of lines than now.

Greta

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Vivien
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Re: Subside the story

Postby Vivien » Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:52 am

Hi Greta,
I see now that every time you ask a similar question I look for an answer by thinking...and the thinking turns to the story instead of the physical/reality.
Yes, this is definitely true. Reality is much simpler then we think it is :)

But what you described is the body.
But my question was describing the I / person / Greta itself, and not the body.
Yes, in conventionally speaking, we talk about the body as if it were Greta.
But in reality, the body is not equal to I / person / Greta.

I supposed to be the OWNER of the body, not the body itself.
That’s why way say: MY body, MY hand, MY head, MY digestion.

So find this I that is owning the body. Which says: “I have a body”.
Where is this I?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NYX
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Re: Subside the story

Postby NYX » Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:08 pm

Hi Vivien,
What shape it has?
What texture?
What color?...
I don't think I can answer any of these questions because the I just seems to be present. It has no shape or size or texture.
Before I would have said that it is behind the eyes however, It actually feels to be part of the field of view....if I is the owner of the body, the way I is the owner of this laptop or the chair then it is not necessarily integrated or connected to the body.
So find this I that is owning the body. Which says: “I have a body”.
Where is this I?
When the body is not in the field of view it doesn't feel like it is part of the I. There are sensations that I can feel when touching objects or other areas but the body becomes conceptual.


Greta

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Vivien
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Re: Subside the story

Postby Vivien » Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:28 am

Hi Greta,
Before I would have said that it is behind the eyes however, It actually feels to be part of the field of view....if I is the owner of the body, the way I is the owner of this laptop or the chair then it is not necessarily integrated or connected to the body.
This answer is conceptual. Coming from thinking and not looking at immediate experience.
Do you actually FEEL yourself to be where the laptop is?
Do you feel to be where the chair is?

Can you see that this is just a speculation?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NYX
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Re: Subside the story

Postby NYX » Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:59 pm

Hi Vivien,
Do you actually FEEL yourself to be where the laptop is?
Do you feel to be where the chair is?

Can you see that this is just a speculation?
Even as the answer was typed, it seemed like something I was trying to figure out rather than have experienced, so I see how it is just a speculation.

Not in this moment. The senses can feel, see, hear the laptop. I don't feel myself to be where the laptop is, It seems like I'm looking at it through a screen. Even as I see the hands typing, I don't feel as part of them. I'm aware that I'm the one making them move but I'm seeing them differently than I used to.

Greta

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Vivien
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Re: Subside the story

Postby Vivien » Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:06 am

Hi Greta,
I don't feel myself to be where the laptop is, It seems like I'm looking at it through a screen.
So what is this screen that you are look at the laptop THROUGH?
Where is the exact location of this screen?
What is this screen made of?

How do you know exactly that looking happens through a screen?
What is giving this information? Seeing itself? Or rather this is just another story taken for granted?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NYX
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Re: Subside the story

Postby NYX » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:21 pm

Hi Vivien,
So what is this screen that you are look at the laptop THROUGH?
Where is the exact location of this screen?
What is this screen made of?
When I refer to it as a ''screen'' I didn't necessarily refer to anything physical, more so metaphorically. The body that was in the field of view and the view itself seemed like a VR experience or a video game. The ''screen'' isn't made of anything. It seems to provide a separation between the viewer and everything outside of it, even though there are no actual boundaries.
The ''screen'' or view is just there. It becomes wider as the eyes stop focusing on anything particular.
How do you know exactly that looking happens through a screen?
I don't know that exactly, but that is what the experience seemed like. It is hard to explain, so I tend to turn to metaphors or refer to other experiences to explain it.
I've been practicing just being aware of things I'm doing every day. Some days more often than others. I have never experienced anything like that before. Music tends to aid the experiencing.
What is giving this information? Seeing itself? Or rather this is just another story taken for granted?
Seeing is just seeing, there's nothing else. Thoughts are giving this information...the commentary that pops in and out. There's experiencing for a short while and then the commentary comes in...''what am I experiencing..'', ''this seems like this...'' and ''how will I explain this experience to Vivien...'' etc. I am taken out of the moment to justify what has happened.

There was some resistance to posting because it felt like I wasn't grasping it. I apologize for the inconsistency of the posts and I will try to post every day again.

Greta

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Vivien
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Re: Subside the story

Postby Vivien » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:53 am

Hi Greta,
When I refer to it as a ''screen'' I didn't necessarily refer to anything physical, more so metaphorically.
Metaphors have no real place in this investigation. Why? Since metaphors are essentially imaginative explanation or interpretation. It’s an added thought story for the simplicity of the raw experience.

Actually, metaphors are in the way, since as soon as we use a metaphor that metaphor becomes a thing. We stop seeing experience as it is, and we see instead the thought overlay, the metaphor itself, and we take it to be real.

The self is just as much not real as a metaphor.
So we cannot use thoughts to see through the illusion.

So when you look, you ignore thoughts and just notice what is here now, UNDERNEATH all thoughts.

When you SEE what is, then you use words/thoughts to describe it as precisely as you can without adding anything extra.

A metaphor is an added extra. A distortive layer over reality. Can you see this?
I've been practicing just being aware of things I'm doing every day. Some days more often than others. I have never experienced anything like that before. Music tends to aid the experiencing.
OK, let’s look into this.

What is it exactly that is practicing to be aware of things?
What is doing the practice?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NYX
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Re: Subside the story

Postby NYX » Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:10 pm

Hi Vivien,
A metaphor is an added extra. A distortive layer over reality. Can you see this?
Yes I can see that. Since the last post, every time I was experiencing it, the mind labelled it as that metaphor. That experience became it. It became another label.
What is it exactly that is practicing to be aware of things?
What is doing the practice?
The separate self wants to practice to be aware, however during it awareness is just happening. There are no emotions. Greta does not exist in that moment, labels don't exist. The focus is on the experiences that all labels disappear. In the moment things are just happening and they are heard, seen, felt.
Everything pulsates. Inanimate objects seem like they are moving. Every single object does not seem ordinary anymore during the experience.

Greta

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Vivien
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Re: Subside the story

Postby Vivien » Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:56 am

Hi Greta,
Yes I can see that. Since the last post, every time I was experiencing it, the mind labelled it as that metaphor. That experience became it. It became another label.
Yes. Please watch out for this. We way too often take our thoughts for granted, and we believe them to be something real, something actual.
The separate self wants to practice to be aware, however during it awareness is just happening.
But how could a separate self want to practice to be aware? For this to be true, there has to be a real, actual, tangible separate self, and only then can it be self that this tangible, actual separate self wants to practice to be present.

So where is this separate self?
Where is it located in the body?
There are no emotions. Greta does not exist in that moment, labels don't exist.
And when there are emotions suddenly a real Greta comes into existence?
Or regardless of the presence or absence of emotions there is no real Greta in reality, other than a thought idea?
Everything pulsates. Inanimate objects seem like they are moving. Every single object does not seem ordinary anymore during the experience.
And who is having this experience?
What and where is the experiencer?
Is there an experiencer at all? Or things just happen without anyone or anything experiencing them?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NYX
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Re: Subside the story

Postby NYX » Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:13 pm

Hi Vivien,
So where is this separate self?
Where is it located in the body?
Separate self is not located anywhere, it only appears in thought. I see...how could it possibly ''want to practice'' if it's only a story? It has no emotions or feelings. It only exists in thought, a thought of it appears and disappears.
And when there are emotions suddenly a real Greta comes into existence?
Or regardless of the presence or absence of emotions there is no real Greta in reality, other than a thought idea?
Greta doesn't come into existence whether there's presence or absence of emotions. The story of Greta appears as a thought....some days it takes over the experience. But from time to time, there's acknowledgement that this is fiction. It is recognized as fiction mostly when thoughts are ignored and there's only experience of the present moment.
And who is having this experience?
What and where is the experiencer?
Is there an experiencer at all? Or things just happen without anyone or anything experiencing them?
Things are happening without anyone or anything experiencing them.
However, in certain moments, there are still thoughts that appear about separate self, that aren't ignored and it seems like there is an experiencer.


Greta

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Vivien
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Re: Subside the story

Postby Vivien » Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:12 am

Hi Greta,
It is recognized as fiction mostly when thoughts are ignored and there's only experience of the present moment.
And do thoughts actually need to be ignored or absent in order to recognize that the body is empty of a self?
Things are happening without anyone or anything experiencing them.
However, in certain moments, there are still thoughts that appear about separate self, that aren't ignored and it seems like there is an experiencer.
And when it seems like that there is an experience, in what form that expereincer appears?

What is it that ignores thoughts?
Where is the ignorer?

Is ignoring something you do, or something that is happening on its own?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NYX
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:54 am

Re: Subside the story

Postby NYX » Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:17 am

Hi Vivien,
And do thoughts actually need to be ignored or absent in order to recognize that the body is empty of a self?
They don't have to be absent or ignored, one just has to realize that the content of thoughts is not real and that there is no separate self.
And when it seems like that there is an experience, in what form that expereincer appears?
In the form of an observer. It is not Greta, but some entity, some sort of presence.
What is it that ignores thoughts?
Where is the ignorer?
Is ignoring something you do, or something that is happening on its own?
Some days, when one is caught up in the story of the separate self, one thinks that there is a need to ignore thoughts.
Sometimes, there's awareness, thoughts come and go and there's no ignoring.

Greta

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Vivien
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Re: Subside the story

Postby Vivien » Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:34 am

Hi Greta,
In the form of an observer. It is not Greta, but some entity, some sort of presence.
How do you know that there is an observer?

Go the experience of the observer, to this seeming entity.
How is this entity/observer itself experienced?

Is there an independent observer/entity waiting in the background for things to appear in?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
NYX
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:54 am

Re: Subside the story

Postby NYX » Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:11 pm

Hi Vivien,
How do you know that there is an observer?
It's another assumption, because it's something that is very hard to explain. A thought is trying to comprehend that feeling or whatever it is and trying to explain. Up until now it was something identifiable because it was given a label, but now that the label has been removed, it is only experiential and much harder to explain. Yes, there's a feeling of something, not necessarily a being...but something.
How is this entity/observer itself experienced?
It is experienced when there's relaxation, when there's no focus on anything specific. All other senses seem to become sharper when that happens. Things look, sound and feel much more conceptual as nothing is labeled.
Is there an independent observer/entity waiting in the background for things to appear in?
No, the presence is always there, the focus just gets shifted from objects to thoughts to the experience and once the focus is relaxed, it becomes aware of itself. It's not an independent observer, just an essence or something that's there.


Greta


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