Subside the story

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Vivien
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Re: Subside the story

Postby Vivien » Sat Oct 03, 2020 4:41 am

In other words, if you want to ride a bike, you don’t start reading books about or watching videos of others’ experiences on how was it for them when they rode their bikes. Rather, you sit onto your bike and ride it for yourself.

If you want to have a swim, you don’t watch a video about how others do it, rather you go into the water and do it for yourself.

If you want to eat you won’t be satisfied by reading the menu. You actually have to eat the food. You have to experience it for yourself.
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NYX
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Re: Subside the story

Postby NYX » Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:03 pm

Hi Vivien,

Apologies, I only noticed now that I've been spelling your name wrong!
Words are just symbols, by themselves they are not actual things.
Like the word ‘apple’ is just a symbolic representation of something that is real.
But the word ‘apple’ is not the real thing itself.
Is this clear?
I have studied a bit of Semiotics in college so that concept makes sense. Just like brand names or company names don't actually mean anything but the meaning has been added to them through product association.
I can also see this to be true by being able to speak a couple of different languages...different variations of words used to represent something that is real.
Like the word ‘economy’ doesn’t point to anything real.
It’s purely just a concept, which can ever be defined by other concepts, but not with experience.
So it’s just a man-made idea, just a fictional concept, and not a reality.
The word ‘economy’ doesn’t point to anything real, just to other ideas, just to more thoughts.
Is this clear?
Yes, that makes sense. The word Greta would equal to what you were saying about the word ''economy'', it's a fictional concept that is not a reality. Body as a thing on-the-other-hand is experiential because it has senses, it experiences other objects, however the word 'body' itself is just a label. Body as a thing is real, while Greta is not.
Right spot on. We often say or thing that “I feel like” without any actual feeling behind it. It’s often just an expression we use, but not an actual feeling. It’s just a thought. But if we don’t see it that this is just a thought, just words without actual feeling behind them, rather we take these thoughts for granted, then the illusion of it being an actual feeling is created.
Can you see this?
An actual feeling would be felt through the senses like touching for example a throw...it feels soft. While ''I feel worried'' is not actually a feeling that is felt. Worry occurs from thoughts about events or things or situations that could go wrong. There is no worry without a thought. I'm not worried about anything unless I start thinking about something that may cause it. There is no feeling of missing someone until the mind starts thinking about them and that creates the illusion of feeling.
Just notice how many times in a day you thing or say “It feels like” without any actual feeling behind them.
Actually today, there were several occurrences where I usually would have felt embarrassment because of what had happened, however no such feelings arose. Thoughts about what had happened occurred again a few times throughout the day however there were no feelings associated with it. I felt no shame or embarrassment each time even though usually something like that would have brought such feelings.
But if you read a book, you don't investigate. You spend your time with reading, not investigating.
I understand. I'm not actually being in the present moment but I'm distracting myself with a book or a video. And by trying to intellectually think about it, I'm not experiencing it ether as they are just thoughts.

I was on a hike the other day and I was very thirsty. I thought that that feeling was something that was making me feel present in the moment, however it was pointed out to me that it was actually distracting me as it was the only thing I could think about the whole time. That was true. I couldn't think about anything else or stop the thoughts. So to experience and be present there has to be no thoughts?


Greta

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Vivien
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Re: Subside the story

Postby Vivien » Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:31 am

Hi Greta,
I was on a hike the other day and I was very thirsty. I thought that that feeling was something that was making me feel present in the moment, however it was pointed out to me that it was actually distracting me as it was the only thing I could think about the whole time. That was true. I couldn't think about anything else or stop the thoughts. So to experience and be present there has to be no thoughts?
But what does it mean to be present?

And what is it exactly that is sometimes is present but other times don’t?
And who wants to be present?

When you are not present, where do you go?
Can you not be present?
Is it possible at all to not be present?
Is there any time when it’s not now?

And when there are thoughts, aren’t those thoughts are also here now in the present moment?

Can there be any thought that doesn’t a present happening?
Is there anything that is not presently happening?

So to experience and be present there has to be no thoughts?
The present or absence of thoughts have nothing to do with ‘being present’.
Since there is no other time or place to be then being here now.

But there is another problem with the desire of ‘being present’.
It assumes that there is an entity who is moving between being present and not being present.

But where would this entity go?
And is there an actual entity at all? Where is it?

Where is this I right now?

Is there an I that is separate from the present moment?


It’s very important that you don’t think about the answers, since that would just speculation.
You have to investigate your immediate experience, and describe what you see as precisely as you can without adding anything extra. Just the raw facts.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NYX
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Re: Subside the story

Postby NYX » Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:06 pm

Hi Vivien,

But what does it mean to be present?
To be concentrating on the exact moment when things are happening. For example, drinking coffee and only concentrating on that gesture.
And what is it exactly that is sometimes is present but other times don’t?
And who wants to be present?
I guess one is always present, but the mind gets distracted. The mind wants to be present.
When you are not present, where do you go?
Can you not be present?
Is it possible at all to not be present?
Is there any time when it’s not now?
You don't go anywhere. It is always now. You are always in the moment but you experience distractions. Distractions that come in the form of thoughts. When you are experiencing things happening around you, you are still present, for example having a conversation with a friend...however when thoughts arise one becomes distracted by those thoughts and the concentration from that conversation shifts and so it seems that you are not present anymore.
And when there are thoughts, aren’t those thoughts are also here now in the present moment?
The thoughts are here and now. Some seem like they link one and the past because some are memories, but they are still happening in the present.
Can there be any thought that doesn’t a present happening?
Is there anything that is not presently happening?
No, everything is happening presently.
But there is another problem with the desire of ‘being present’.
It assumes that there is an entity who is moving between being present and not being present.
I was confusing the idea that being present meant the mind had to be absolutely clear, with full focus on things that were happening in the moment. Now I see that thoughts are happening in the present. My focus was still on the content of thoughts and that it was taking the mind somewhere else....perhaps they are not distractions either, they are something that just appears.
But where would this entity go?
And is there an actual entity at all? Where is it?
The entity doesn't go anywhere. The focus shifts between things but it is always present.
Where is this I right now?
The I is answering these questions.
Is there an I that is separate from the present moment?
There is no separate I, the I is in this moment answering questions.

Greta

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Vivien
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Re: Subside the story

Postby Vivien » Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:14 am

Hi Greta,
V: Where is this I right now?
G: The I is answering these questions.
This is vague. Can you be more precise? Much more precise…

Where is the EXACT location of the I right now?
Be as specific as you can.

How do you know that an I is answering the questions?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NYX
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Re: Subside the story

Postby NYX » Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:32 pm

Hi Vivien,
Where is this I right now?
Where is the EXACT location of the I right now?
Be as specific as you can.
The I is answering these questions, on a laptop. Sitting on the couch in the living room. Hearing voices from upstairs. Typing loudly. Hearing noises made by the laptop. Answering of these questions is constantly interrupted by thoughts of what needs to be done later tonight and tomorrow.
How do you know that an I is answering the questions?
The voice in the mind that is reading these questions is also answering them. This voice seems to be part of the entity. It used to seem like the ''voice'' was Greta, however now it is clear that Greta is not real.

I've been struggling with answering questions such as these, due to the fact that you ask me not to think about the answers. It seems then that the answers are short and vague. I don't know how to approach them.

I haven't been able to investigate for the last few days because I had constant anxiety. It's like it clouds everything...the mind, the body. The thoughts were all centered around the cause of anxiety...overthinking or the anxiety itself. The body felt discomfort...the mind concentrated on it...and it became a vicious cycle.

Greta

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Vivien
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Re: Subside the story

Postby Vivien » Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:03 am

Hi Greta,
The voice in the mind that is reading these questions is also answering them.
How do you know that a voice is reading these questions?
Can a voice read? Or is this just an unquestioned assumption?
I've been struggling with answering questions such as these, due to the fact that you ask me not to think about the answers. It seems then that the answers are short and vague. I don't know how to approach them.
The difficulty is that you are actually thinking about the answers. Your answers are intellectual. You have an intellectual understanding that Greta is just a fictional character, but you are not seeing this clearly in experience.

So we have to change the course of our inquiry, to learn how to distinguish between thinking and experiencing.
But first, we have to deal with this anxiety.
I haven't been able to investigate for the last few days because I had constant anxiety. It's like it clouds everything...the mind, the body. The thoughts were all centered around the cause of anxiety...overthinking or the anxiety itself. The body felt discomfort...the mind concentrated on it...and it became a vicious cycle.
Can you notice, that fear and anxiety come with thoughts about future? What will happen if?
Is fear here when you think about this present moment?

Do thoughts about future make future real?

The thoughts were all centered around the cause of anxiety...overthinking or the anxiety itself.
Do you think that by thinking about anxiety you can make it go away?
Just notice, the more you want to get rid of this anxiety (or any unpleasant emotion), the stronger it gets.

The resistance to it, actually makes it stronger. Why? What we resist, we are actually holding onto.
Thus what we resist, persists.

Can you sit just for a few minutes, and allow ALL the sensations to be here?
Can you put aside the story about anxiety, just for a few minutes?
Can you shift your focus to FEELING those sensations?

What happens if you stop thinking about it, if you stop labelling it and even calling it as ‘anxiety’, rather just gently stay with it and feel it?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Subside the story

Postby NYX » Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:04 pm

Hi Vivien,
How do you know that a voice is reading these questions?
Can a voice read? Or is this just an unquestioned assumption?
It's an unquestioned assumption. The ''voice'' are just thoughts.
Can you notice, that fear and anxiety come with thoughts about future? What will happen if?
Is fear here when you think about this present moment?
Yes, anxiety only occurs when there are thoughts about the future. The thoughts are based on past experiences and become worries for the future scenarios. What if this happens, because something similar happened before...
There is also some anxiety about finance but that also has to do with future scenarios.
Do thoughts about future make future real?
Thoughts don't make future real. Thoughts don't make anything real at all.

Just notice, the more you want to get rid of this anxiety (or any unpleasant emotion), the stronger it gets.
I have actually noticed that. When I focus on it and try to figure out why it is happening, it just becomes more intense. I get caught up in the content of the thoughts.
There are times when I acknowledge that these emotions are caused by overthinking and that they are all temporary. I allow the body to feel what it is feeling and it begins to fade into the background until I concentrate on it again. Other times I'm just overwhelmed and all that goes out the window...other unpleasant emotions start to appear, mostly of frustration because it seems like the process has reverted.
The only reason it has such an affect is because it all seems REAL, even though I understand that it is not. As you said, I need to learn how to distinguish between thinking and experiencing.
The resistance to it, actually makes it stronger. Why? What we resist, we are actually holding onto.
Thus what we resist, persists.
Because by resisting it I dedicate all focus and energy towards it.
Can you sit just for a few minutes, and allow ALL the sensations to be here?
Can you put aside the story about anxiety, just for a few minutes?
Can you shift your focus to FEELING those sensations? What happens if you stop thinking about it, if you stop labelling it and even calling it as ‘anxiety’, rather just gently stay with it and feel it?
There's a slightly more intense feeling in the body than usual, heart racing, tingling in the legs, but there's no emotional connection to it and after a short while everything gets calmer...
I've been trying to practice this with while feeling cold when I'm out hiking...Instead of concentrating on the thoughts about how cold and damp the clothes and body are I would shift focus to just feeling and embracing it....and after a short while the cold won't seem so intense. The cold is an external sensation therefore there is no personal connection to it and I am able to acknowledge that it is temporary. Anxiety seems personal.

Greta

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Vivien
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Re: Subside the story

Postby Vivien » Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:52 am

Hi Greta,
The only reason it has such an affect is because it all seems REAL, even though I understand that it is not. As you said, I need to learn how to distinguish between thinking and experiencing.
Yes, exactly. And the thing is that understanding doesn’t really help. This needs to be seen experientially.

Many of your replies are coming from intellectual understanding and not from experiential seeing.
You say that there is no separate I, since you have a good intellectual understanding of it.
But as you can see, this is not enough, since you still feel as if you were a separate self.
The cold is an external sensation therefore there is no personal connection to it and I am able to acknowledge that it is temporary. Anxiety seems personal.
Anxiety comes when we take things personally. When we believe that the cold is happening TO ME. I’m the one who is cold. And I don’t like it.

But the question is, where is this I that is cold when there is cold, and doesn’t like it?

It’s important that you don’t just write down what you already know intellectual.
If it FEELS to be a separate self, which is life happening to, then you have to investigate it in experience.
Don’t be satisfied with the intellectual knowing of there being no self.
Unfortunately, that won’t help.
You have to see it for yourself hundreds of times again and again.


Do you drink coffee or tea? Next time when you drink it, please investigate what is the difference between thinking about coffee and experiencing the coffee.

Is it possible to look at the coffee without thinking “this is a coffee, and I’m going to drink it”? Is it possible to EXPERIENCE it only by looking at it and SEEING it without thinking about it?

And when you take a sip, is it possible to just FEEL the warmth of it, without analysing and thinking why it’s warm, and how long will it stay warm?

And is it possible just to experience the TASTE of it, without analysing it, or thinking how bitter it is, or whether it needs some sweetener or not?

Is it possible to EXPERIENCE the SMELL of the coffee, without thinking “this smell reminds me of his or that”?


I would like to ask you to really try this out in reality, and not just think it through. In other words, not just think about it.

But of course, thoughts about it might happen! But that’s all right. You just ignore the thoughts, and you turn your attention to experiencing.

Do you see, I’m asking you the same thing: not just to think it through what I wrote above, but actually do it in experience. Do you see the difference?


This difference will be the basis of our investigation.
You cannot experience (see, feel, taste, smell) the coffee by thinking. You literally have to experience it.

Do you see clearly the difference between thinking and experiencing?

Please experiment throughout the day with all sorts of things. Like having dinner, washing your hands, going up a staircase, ect.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Subside the story

Postby NYX » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:25 pm

Hi Vivien,

Throughout the day I was able to have short experiences...drinking coffee, sitting in the passenger seat while going for a drive, walking on the beach, making tea. At the beginning of the day, it all seemed a bit of a chore...something I HAD to do, however as the day went on I was able to tune into these experiences easier and easier.

At the beginning, there was a lot of distraction, thoughts kept popping in and out...The more I practiced, the easier it got to go to being aware.
Do you drink coffee or tea? Next time when you drink it, please investigate what is the difference between thinking about coffee and experiencing the coffee.
I found that when experiencing the coffee, there were no emotions/ feelings present apart from the senses. If I was looking at coffee, there was just looking. If there was touching the warmth of the cup...there was only touching...no emotions came of it. It was easier to experience coffee through seeing it and feeling it, rather than tasting it. When I was tasting it, thoughts of how bitter it was creeped in more often and they were harder to ignore.

When sitting in the passenger seat during a drive, we were listening to music...Once again, there was only seeing and hearing...only afterwards thoughts popped into the mind about how surreal it felt. Once again, there were no emotions present during the experience, only afterwards, only after I thought about what had happened.
Do you see clearly the difference between thinking and experiencing?
Now I know what the difference between thinking and experiencing is. Thinking creates a series of scenarios that are added to any experience. Experience is just experienced...no emotions or thoughts. Seeing is just seeing. Hearing is just hearing etc.
But the question is, where is this I that is cold when there is cold, and doesn’t like it?
The I is in the mind, in the thoughts. There is only cold happening. It only feels cold when we think about it and attach an emotion to it.

Greta

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Vivien
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Re: Subside the story

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:35 am

Hi Greta,
Now I know what the difference between thinking and experiencing is. Thinking creates a series of scenarios that are added to any experience.
Yes. Nice observation.
Experience is just experienced...no emotions or thoughts. Seeing is just seeing. Hearing is just hearing etc.
But if there is an emotion, that can also be experienced, isn’t it? As a sensation?

And when there is a thought, then the presence of the thought is also experienced, isn’t it?
Not the content of the thought (what the thought is about), but the thought as a phenomenon itself?

So in order to experience seeing, do thoughts and emotions needs to stop?
When there are thoughts interpreting the taste of the coffee, does this mean that you cannot experience the taste itself?
Or there can be both at the same time, taste + a thought commentary about the taste?


It’s not about stopping thinking, or not having any thoughts about the taste of the coffee, but rather shifting attention from the commentary thoughts to the experience of taste.

Thoughts don’t have to stop. It’s just the question of shifting attention from thinking to experiencing.
Can you see this?


Viviven
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Subside the story

Postby NYX » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:12 am

Hi Vivien,

But if there is an emotion, that can also be experienced, isn’t it? As a sensation?
Yes, I can see that. I guess having a lot of emotions, especially ones associated with negative connotations, led to the idea of needing them to stop altogether, however if the focus shifts to the actual sensation in the body, it's not negative at all. I noticed the sensation itself is not causing any discomfort, only the content of thoughts...
And when there is a thought, then the presence of the thought is also experienced, isn’t it?
Not the content of the thought (what the thought is about), but the thought as a phenomenon itself?
Yes, that's true. Emotion is experienced and so are thoughts. The content itself seems to have a major affect on me. From time to time I still take it as the truth, even though I understand that non of it is real. Paranoia and fear are the ones driving these thoughts.
So in order to experience seeing, do thoughts and emotions needs to stop?
When there are thoughts interpreting the taste of the coffee, does this mean that you cannot experience the taste itself?
Or there can be both at the same time, taste + a thought commentary about the taste?
There can be both. Both appeared when I was experiencing the coffee. When the content of the thoughts relates to the direct experience, thoughts are welcome, in my case... It's when the thoughts are random, it distracts me from the experience.
Thoughts don’t have to stop. It’s just the question of shifting attention from thinking to experiencing.
Can you see this?
I can see it.

Greta

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Re: Subside the story

Postby Vivien » Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:09 am

Hi Greta,
Yes, I can see that. I guess having a lot of emotions, especially ones associated with negative connotations, led to the idea of needing them to stop altogether, however if the focus shifts to the actual sensation in the body, it's not negative at all. I noticed the sensation itself is not causing any discomfort, only the content of thoughts...
Exactly. And this is a very important discovery. Since emotions cannot be stopped. It’s not in the cards of not having half of the human emotions, only the pleasant ones.

Rather it’s about discovering that sensation cannot hurt us, and they are not actually problematic. Only the thought story around those sensations make them seem to be problematic and not wanted.
The content itself seems to have a major affect on me. From time to time I still take it as the truth, even though I understand that non of it is real.
Understanding that there is no real self is simply not enough.
Actually, this understanding can be in the way. Why? Because if I accept the idea that there is no self, then I might not actually look to see that there is no self in reality, since I ALREADY know.
“I already know it” – can be a dangerous stance. It can stop me from actually looking and seeing it for myself.

Can you let go this knowing? Can you let go what you already know intellectually?


Since if you FEEL to be a separate self, then that is the truth for you.
And no amount of thinking that there is no self could change that.

You have to let go of the idea that you know that there is no separate self, and accept that you FEEL to be a separate self. Face it.

When you fully face it and accept that this is how it is to be for you right now, then you have a change to investigate it.
Otherwise, you might miss the whole thing.
The content itself seems to have a major affect on me.
So let’s look into this, with an ‘empty mind’. Just let go of the idea that you know that there is no self.
Since you believe and feel that there is a me who is being affected by thought content.

So look in this very moment, what is this me here now that thought have major effect on?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NYX
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Re: Subside the story

Postby NYX » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:23 pm

Hi Vivien ,
Can you let go this knowing? Can you let go what you already know intellectually?
You are absolutely right...I think that's what has been stopping me from investigating it. I just believed it and that was it, without actually investigating it properly and truly believing it. Then, every time I would get caught up in the separate self, anger and other emotions would arise because I wanted to believe that there was no separate self.

I can let it go.
So look in this very moment, what is this me here now that thought have major effect on?
I am a person called Greta. I am stressed in this very moment about not having a consistent full-time job. I feel like my skills are being wasted.
I am hearing my mother and sister laughing hysterically upstairs. My thoughts are shifting from stressful scenarios regarding work to exciting thoughts about going for a hike with my boyfriend tomorrow. My focus keeps shifting from the laptop to TV as Netflix ads are constantly changing, introducing new shows.


Also, lately I've been finding a lot of things quiet mundane...Nothing seems to be sparking much of an interest...friends, most conversations, unless they are about self-development or something along those lines...nor hobbies.
I'm not sure if mundane is the right word to use to describe it....there doesn't seem to be much emotion or a reaction when it comes to those things.

Greta

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Re: Subside the story

Postby Vivien » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:19 am

Hi Greta,
Also, lately I've been finding a lot of things quiet mundane...Nothing seems to be sparking much of an interest...friends, most conversations, unless they are about self-development or something along those lines...nor hobbies.
I'm not sure if mundane is the right word to use to describe it....there doesn't seem to be much emotion or a reaction when it comes to those things.
That’s OK, these things can happen.
You are absolutely right...I think that's what has been stopping me from investigating it. I just believed it and that was it, without actually investigating it properly and truly believing it. Then, every time I would get caught up in the separate self, anger and other emotions would arise because I wanted to believe that there was no separate self.
It’s good to notice this. This is essential. If you don’t look and investigate each questions for 50-100 times a day, then you are just wasting your time and energy by trying to make yourself to believe in something.
You cannot make yourself belief in no-self… or you can, but you cannot expect any change in your daily life.
V: So look in this very moment, what is this me here now that thought have major effect on?
G: I am a person called Greta. I am stressed in this very moment about not having a consistent full-time job. I feel like my skills are being wasted.
I am hearing my mother and sister laughing hysterically upstairs. My thoughts are shifting from stressful scenarios regarding work to exciting thoughts about going for a hike with my boyfriend tomorrow. My focus keeps shifting from the laptop to TV as Netflix ads are constantly changing, introducing new shows.
Look Greta, this comment is not looking what is here. This is focusing on thoughts and describe the STORY you believe in.
I am a person called Greta.

You missed the question.

Where is this I exactly in this very moment?
Please don’t say, that here or in the room. Tell me the EXACT millimetre or quarter of inch precision its location.

Also, how bit is this I?
What shape it has?
What texture?
What color?
Does it have a sound?
Temperature?
Can it be tasted it?
Smell it?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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