Looking for the Guide Taran

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:05 am

Hi Taran
What is the DE of ‘heart’? Is a ‘heart’ known as DE? Can you find a heart in sound, colour, smell, taste or sensation? Or is it simply the DE of thought?

The label ‘heart’ is DE of thought and not DE of a heart
The sensation labelled as ‘heart’ is DE of sensation and not DE of a heart
Thoughts about a ‘heart’ are DE of thought and not DE of a heart.
Can you see this?
Yes - I have sensations from within my chest which is a place I label ‘heart’ with my thoughts. so DE is thought and sensation not ‘heart’ - is that what you are saying?

Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’.
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation (labelled ‘pressure’) and thoughts ABOUT a head?


there are only thoughts about ‘head’ the DE is pressure
do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
Just sensations

Have a look to see if fingers can actually be found. Can they?


no. Only thoughts about fingers
And is there anything between the pressure points, or are there just thoughts about something being in between them
There’s nothing between the pressure points other than thoughts about what might be there
Without thought, how big is your head?
I don’t know
Without thought, does it have an inside or an outside?
no
Without thought, does it have a location?
no

Can you find a feeling as DE?
no
Can you find a feeling in colour, sensation, smell, taste or sound? Or is it simply a thought?
just thought (and sensations of pressure)
Is the feeling an actual sensation? no it’s a sense or an emotion.
And what is the DE of ‘sense’? Is it a colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation…or is it a thought?
this question is doing my head in..... it’s as if I can’t quite get it... it’s as if I do get something but not quite and done want to. Or can’t.
An emotion = thought + sensation. So, is it an actual sensation or is it simply a thought?
what ‘it’ are you referring to? I seem to have lost the thread!
Can you find an “I” that is feeling this ‘sense of peace’?
yes - the I is a DE in thought - or do we not call thought a DE? I’m confused.
Can you find an “I” in the sensation being labelled as ‘sense of peace’ (if it’s an actual sensation)?
Yes - I is a sense which could be thought - the I isn’t a bodily sensation but it is a sense within energy so it’s much more subtle- but I think you’re going to say this is thought because it’s not a physical experience in the same way as touch is.
Does the sensation itself suggest in anyway that it is a ‘sense of peace’.
do you mean from the previous exercise? I didn’t feel a ‘sense of peace’ with the fingers on head exercise. Just sensation of pressure and though about ‘pressure’ ‘fingers’ ‘head’ .....sorry if my answers don’t make sense but I’m getting very confused with this post!

Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:20 pm

Hi V
Thanks for your answers, you did very well with the exercise and keeping in DE.
Great responses and sharings.
The sensation labelled as ‘heart’ is DE of sensation and not DE of a heart
Thoughts about a ‘heart’ are DE of thought and not DE of a heart.
Can you see this?
Yes - I have sensations from within my chest which is a place I label ‘heart’ with my thoughts. so DE is thought and sensation not ‘heart’ - is that what you are saying?
Yes the DE is thought & sensation.

Great, let’s be even clearer...in your direct experience can you know the sensation is “within my chest”?
In fact, are you experiencing a ‘me’ having a chest?




Can you find a feeling as DE?
Is the feeling an actual sensation? no it’s a sense or an emotion.
And what is the DE of ‘sense’? Is it a colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation…or is it a thought?
this question is doing my head in..... it’s as if I can’t quite get it... it’s as if I do get something but not quite and done want to. Or can’t.
Great! I’m serious...this is the crunch point.... this is what we need to help you through. This is a good sign you are on the edge of seeing.... you just have to keep in direct experience, and not let thought take over.

So keep looking.

Can you find a feeling as DE? Is the feeling an actual sensation?
If it is not an actual sensation (physical) and it is not colour, sound, smell or taste...then what is it?

An emotion = thought + sensation. So, is it an actual sensation or is it simply a thought?
what ‘it’ are you referring to? I seem to have lost the thread!
Sorry, the ‘it’ was ‘feeling’.

Is “feeling” and actual body sensation or just a thought?

Can you find an “I” that is feeling this ‘sense of peace’?
yes - the I is a DE in thought - or do we not call thought a DE? I’m confused.
yes, a thought is DE

can you find an “I” outside of thought?

Can you find an “I” in the sensation being labelled as ‘sense of peace’ (if it’s an actual sensation)?
Yes - I is a sense which could be thought –
great...both the "I" and "sense"(in this type of non physical context) are thought
the I isn’t a bodily sensation but it is a sense within energy so it’s much more subtle- but I think you’re going to say this is thought because it’s not a physical experience in the same way as touch is.
I am not going to tell you anything. I am asking you to look in YOUR direct experience.
In direct experience is a “sense within energy”......

Can you find this in direct experience? Or is this an unquestioned belief?



This really is the important part of the investigation, what is real and what is an unexamined belief.... a belief is just another thought.

Keep doing what you are doing.

Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:39 am

Hi Taran
Great, let’s be even clearer...in your direct experience can you know the sensation is “within my chest”?
In fact, are you experiencing a ‘me’ having a chest?
No I can’t know that the sensation is within my chest. That’s a thought.

Am I experiencing a me having a chest? ....well I can only answer that with a sense of a me........but really they are just all thoughts

Can you find a feeling as DE? Is the feeling an actual sensation?
If it is not an actual sensation (physical) and it is not colour, sound, smell or taste...then what is it?
The feeling is not a DE sensation.

Is “feeling” and actual body sensation or just a thought?
can you find an “I” outside of thought?
Feeling is a thought.
I cannot find an I (that I can identify with DE) outside of though.

the I isn’t a bodily sensation but it is a sense within energy so it’s much more subtle- but I think you’re going to say this is thought because it’s not a physical experience in the same way as touch is.
I am not going to tell you anything. I am asking you to look in YOUR direct experience.
In direct experience is a “sense within energy”......
My head says there’s no sense within energy. But my head says there IS energy

Can you find this in direct experience? Or is this an unquestioned belief?
. You are right! It’s an unquestioned belief that’s going on here.

V

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:59 am

Hi V

Super responses, well done.
Great, let’s be even clearer...in your direct experience can you know the sensation is “within my chest”?
In fact, are you experiencing a ‘me’ having a chest?
No I can’t know that the sensation is within my chest. That’s a thought.

Am I experiencing a me having a chest? ....well I can only answer that with a sense of a me........but really they are just all thoughts
Well done...interesting isn’t it!.... “sense of me” is only a thought.. yep!

Is “feeling” and actual body sensation or just a thought?
can you find an “I” outside of thought?
Feeling is a thought.
I cannot find an I (that I can identify with DE) outside of thought.
: - ) Well seen

Can you find this in direct experience? Or is this an unquestioned belief?
You are right! It’s an unquestioned belief that’s going on here.
Wonderful!
How has the rest of your day been?
Have you had any more opportunities to see that the sense of self is only a thought?
How did/do you respond to this realisation?
Please keep looking for a sense of self that appears outside of thought and let me know how it goes.


Today let's explore this feeling of sense of self further. Take your time.

Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire…

Does the feeling 'sense of self' have a location?
Does the feeling 'sense of self' have a shape or a size?

Does the 'sense of self' say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the 'sense of self' do this exactly?

Does the 'sense of self' have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?


Just to give you something else to look at during your day....
Watch to see if you choose the next emotion, mind state, or attitude that arises... Sit & look at what is happening. Can you find any choice-point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?
Have fun
Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:13 pm

Hi Taran
Thanks again for your time and attention to this process with me.
How has the rest of your day been?
Have you had any more opportunities to see that the sense of self is only a thought?
I am watching it most of the time on and off
How did/do you respond to this realisation?
I am both resisting it and accepting it at the same time
Please keep looking for a sense of self that appears outside of thought and let me know how it goes.
as far as I am aware there isn't one beyond thought
Today let's explore this feeling of sense of self further. Take your time.
ok
Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire…
Does the feeling 'sense of self' have a location?
no - it has no boundary
Does the feeling 'sense of self' have a shape or a size?
It seems to be constantly morphing
Does the 'sense of self' say or communicate anything?
no
If the answer is yes, how does the 'sense of self' do this exactly?
na
Does the 'sense of self' have any characteristics or attributes?
no
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?
if anything its ether or stuff of the universe because it is the universe - but that is probably just thought. It certainly has no image sound taste smell or sensation and no thought of its own
Just to give you something else to look at during your day....
Watch to see if you choose the next emotion, mind state, or attitude that arises... Sit & look at what is happening.
Can you find any choice-point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?
I don't choose my emotions, mind states or attitudes but I seem to be trying to change them once they have appeared.

Thanks
Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:21 am

Hi V
Thanks again for your time and attention to this process with me.

It’s a pleasure & an honour to help. : - )

You are doing really well.
How did/do you respond to this realisation?
I am both resisting it and accepting it at the same time
I’m pleased you shared this...... This is really important to look at. Really turn to this and examine it.
Tell me more about the resisting.....What sort of thoughts and sensations are arising?
Did you have a look at what your direct actual experience of this ‘resisting is?
Did you look at what it is exactly that can be resisting or accepting?
If it already happening...can anything actually be resisted...or only thoughts point to sensation and makes a correlation and labels it 'resistance'?


As you realise by now, the label ‘resisting’ is DE of thought and not DE of the actual ‘resisting’; and
Sensation labelled ‘resisting’ is DE of sensation and not DE of resisting
Colour labelled as me/I/body is DE of colour and not DE of resisting
The ensuing thoughts about resisting, what it is and who it is happening to are DE of thought and not DE of resistance.

What is known is label + sensation + colour + thoughts about resistance, however is resistance actually known? Is resistance known as direct experience?
Please keep looking for a sense of self that appears outside of thought and let me know how it goes.
as far as I am aware there isn't one beyond thought
do you have a sense of self?

no - it has no boundary
Does the feeling 'sense of self' have a shape or a size?
It seems to be constantly morphing
It “seems” tends to be thought based – where is this sense of self that is morphing in DE?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?
if anything its ether or stuff of the universe because it is the universe - but that is probably just thought. It certainly has no image sound taste smell or sensation and no thought of its own
It “probably just thought” : - ) please have another look and tell me what you find..
Can you find any choice-point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?
I don't choose my emotions, mind states or attitudes but I seem to be trying to change them once they have appeared.
Can you just change them, without doing something else? Do you find an “I” that is changing them?


Tell me what you find, and what comes up in the way of emotions and resistant thoughts.
Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:35 pm

Hi Taran
Tell me more about the resisting.....What sort of thoughts and sensations are arising?
I am considering the possibility that my sense of self is only a thought.... in some ways this make over for sense but that’s only a thought too so what is there after that .... nothing or no thing. And if my experience is actually no thing at all then there’s really nothing to get a hold off. Again I totally get this in some moments and in others I find myself not wanting to get it... not wanting to agree with it, not wanting to accept it... in those moments I want to argue that this must be wrong and that something is missing because we can’t know everything... so my knowing it’s true might be untrue... it’s just that my ability to know is limited and I can’t see round the corners yetz

Did you have a look at what your direct actual experience of this ‘resisting is?


YES - I found there’s no DE

Did you look at what it is exactly that can be resisting or accepting?


yes - but it’s not there either - there’s nothing to resist or accept
If it already happening...can anything actually be resisted... or only thoughts point to sensation and makes a correlation and labels it 'resistance'?


only thoughts point to sensation and makes a correlation and labels it 'resistance
What is known is label + sensation + colour + thoughts about resistance, however is resistance actually known? Is resistance known as direct experience?
no and no
Please keep looking for a sense of self that appears outside of thought and let me know how it goes.
as far as I am aware there isn't one beyond thought
do you have a sense of self?


I’ll keep looking for a sense of self that appears outside of thought but if I can’t find it now (which I can’t) then it’s unlikely to appear any time soon! ......sadly! :-(
It seems to be constantly morphing
It “seems” tends to be thought based – where is this sense of self that is morphing in DE?
it’s only a thought :-(
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?
if anything its ether or stuff of the universe because it is the universe - but that is probably just thought. It certainly has no image sound taste smell or sensation and no thought of its own
It “probably just thought” : - ) please have another look and tell me what you find..


I only find thoughts :-(
Can you find any choice-point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?
No - that’s clear to me I don’t choose emotion
I don't choose my emotions, mind states or attitudes but I seem to be trying to change them once they have appeared.
Can you just change them, without doing something else? Do you find an “I” that is changing them?
I can’t change them without doing something else
I can’t find an I and nothing is hanging them they just arise and fall
Tell me what you find, and what comes up in the way of emotions and resistant thoughts.
Emotion - sadness confusion
Resistant thoughts - it can’t be this way, we just are limited in our knowing and seeing, something will get discovered by someone somewhere at some point in the future and we will see how limited we were before, if item harder I’ll see something else

Thanks for your time and attention Taran
I’m thinking this must be time consuming for you?

Have a good and hopefully restful weekend. :-)
V x

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:51 am

Hi V
Thanks for the gratitude and acknowledgment of the time, but it is my passion to guide.
Great and interesting responses, well done for looking really hard at this.
So you can’t find an “I” beyond thought, you don’t choose emotion they just arise and fall – fantastic – well seen!

Tell me more about the resisting.....What sort of thoughts and sensations are arising?
I am considering the possibility that my sense of self is only a thought.... in some ways this make over for sense but that’s only a thought too so what is there after that .... nothing or no thing. And if my experience is actually no thing at all then there’s really nothing to get a hold of.
Wonderful seeing.... there really is nothing to get a hold of!
Again I totally get this in some moments and in others I find myself not wanting to get it... not wanting to agree with it, not wanting to accept it... in those moments I want to argue that this must be wrong and that something is missing because we can’t know everything...

Well spotted ..... what are you afraid of?

Just keep looking in your direct experience, rather than listening to thought, then you will find the truth of things.
Remember you’re not losing anything except a belief in something you never had.

do you have a sense of self?

I’ll keep looking for a sense of self that appears outside of thought but if I can’t find it now (which I can’t) then it’s unlikely to appear any time soon! ......sadly! :-(
Great – well seen.

I am interested in your sad face responses to several of the answers in the last post.... aren’t you here to see through the separate self? Are you having to question more beliefs than you thought? Or is it something else? What fears are arising?


Tell me what you find, and what comes up in the way of emotions and resistant thoughts.
Emotion - sadness confusion
Resistant thoughts - it can’t be this way, we just are limited in our knowing and seeing, something will get discovered by someone somewhere at some point in the future and we will see how limited we were before, if item harder I’ll see something else
Thanks for your honesty, these thoughts are Mara in the Buddhist texts i.e. all the thoughts that tried to distract the Buddha from seeing the truth when he sat under the Bodhi tree.
Keep turning to your direct experience and you will see the truth of how things are.

I hope you have a restful weekend too.
Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:32 am

Hi Taran
I am interested in your sad face responses to several of the answers in the last post.... aren’t you here to see through the separate self? Are you having to question more beliefs than you thought? Or is it something else? What fears are arising?
Yes I am here to see through the separate self.

It’s weird because in many ways I feel as if I do already see through the separate self. I’m aware when I am seeing through it and when I’m stuck in it or in the illusion of it. Even when I’m in the illusion of it I’m also aware of it being an illusion. So in those times it’s as if I’m both seeing through it and I’m in the illusion of it at the same time. Part and part. Its rare to feel totally lost in the illusion. If that happens it’s only like it for minutes and it goes. A gap appears and I can hold my list in it part with the seeing through it part until I can lean back more into the seeing through it part. Does that make sense?

It’s been like this for me for many years and the amount of time I’m in the illusion of a separate self has decreased more and more over the years. Plus the depth of the illusion is lessening all the time.

So.... given all that it feels as if it’s just an organic process that has been taking place and it’s natural for it to continue.

Maybe my fear is the speed of this process on LU. Maybe the fearful part of me says I’m happy with the organic process and don’t want or need a push.

With the speed of the organic process I feel as if I know where this is all going because ive already experienced it happening naturally for decades.

I’m noticing that taking these steps further with LU is pushing me beyond my organic process and speed and I’m assuming it’s into a permanent state of DE and letting go of all thought and body.

Fir the fearful resistant part of me that could be feeling ir seeing like a step too far? I’m just trying to work it out as I type so as to try to explain what’s going on and where I am.

Perhaps also it feels too difficult.... or something. It’s certainly fearing that it might be unknown and partly my attachment to the little bit of sense of self I’ve got remaining.

It’s as if for all these years I’ve been snipping away at the weave, thread by thread and that’s been fine because when another thread goes I know there are still some more to hang on to but now I feel there are so few threads left and I don’t know what I’d be like to cut the final tiny thread. Cutting the final thread is going to be very different from cutting the others - if non are left then what?! It’s unknown.

When you cut threads of fabric the fabric is still in your hands. The fabric in your hand just adjusts its shape each cut you make a cut.

When you cut the final thread though, the fabric falls from your hands. It drops. It falls. And if there is a surface it drops onto the surface. There’s always a surface and you can move the fabric to be in a position so it’ll land in a way that you can to some extent predict. But even then - how it lands is unknown until you do it.

I guess I’m a bit tense and unsure about the final letting go. I do also see though that all this is just thought. Part of the illusion.

Does that make sense?

Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:28 am

Hi V
Thank you for your full and helpful response. Fantastic... Yes it all makes perfect sense, and I will write a fairly full response back, hopefully to help you relax further into this process, so that you can let go of those final threads.

You could, of course, continue your organic method, but something has brought you here! I totally understand about your experience, and if you continue and trust the process, you will see this all in a much clearer light. So maybe it is time to snip that final thread and let the fabric can fall...... because it won’t drop like a brick....rather will fly like silk gracefully in the breeze, to wherever it needs to be next. : - )

Cutting that final thread is the point when awakening deepens, when in Buddhist terms you enter ‘the stream of the dharma’, and can only float towards deeper awakening.

But I remember being in the process, experiencing the fear too – feeling that I was hanging over a void, holding on to my ‘separate self’ by my finger nails. Then it dawned on me that I was now fearful of the VERY thing I’d been working towards. So I decided to trust in the wisdom of the Universe that had brought me here, and I let go (and have never ever regretted it). So yes absolutely you might feel you are about to fall or you are falling. .....Chogyam Trupnga Rinpoche said about insight practice:

“The bad news is you're falling through the air, nothing to hang on to, no parachute. The good news is, there's no ground.”

To me that letting go, opened me to the passion of being in service to others, in a much deeper way than before – I feel that the direct pointing is the biggest gift to offer anyone and the biggest benefit to the Universe. I wouldn’t be guiding if I didn’t find this true in experience.

It is worth me repeating you are only losing BELIEFS in things that have NEVER existed. You are not going to disappear in a puff of smoke and you will still be able to function normally. The world may look totally different to you afterwards, however other people will NOT notice the difference! (Well they may notice you’re more relaxed but that’s about it!)
Maybe my fear is the speed of this process on LU
It is true that this process can work fast..... Why suffer longer than necessary? To add another metaphor.... I do like a metaphor....if you’re in an airplane which loses oxygen, you have to put your own mask on before you can help others, the quicker you can get that mask on the better able you are to help all the others in your reach.

Thanks for sharing your resistances – exactly as I asked. But of course all of these are thoughts (our Maras again). So let’s use some direct pointing to address them.

Let’s address your sentence, quoted above. Someone once told me that FEAR stood for False Evidence Appearing Real .... so can you find fear in direct experience? What is fear?
.
.
I’m noticing that taking these steps further with LU is pushing me beyond my organic process
the fearful resistant part of me that could be feeling ir seeing like a step too far?
Where exactly is the resistant part of me?
Where is the ‘me’ that could be resistant....in your big toe? behind your eyes?

.
.
Perhaps also it feels too difficult.... or something
What is “difficult” in direct experience?

.
.
It’s certainly fearing that it might be unknown and partly my attachment to the little bit of sense of self I’ve got remaining.
You never had a self to have a sense of, it was only ever an idea ... You have nothing to lose. The words ‘sense’ & ‘feeling’ always indicates a thought (sometimes an interpretation of a body sensation, but not necessarily a correct interpretation.)
where is this ‘little bit of sense of self’ in DE, can you find it? (please look)

.
.
It’s as if for all these years I’ve been snipping away at the weave, thread by thread and that’s been fine because when another thread goes I know there are still some more to hang on to but now I feel there are so few threads left and I don’t know what I’d be like to cut the final tiny thread. Cutting the final thread is going to be very different from cutting the others - if none are left then what?! It’s unknown.
This is purely a fearful thought, understandable, but when you think about it.... every ‘next moment’ is unknown.

E.g. In February I had my year planned, my business was expanding to a second location, I had booked two holidays etc but then on 23rd March I came home from work to find those were all ideas. What happened was none of those ideas.... All around me was anxiety as most of the planet was realising what happened next was totally unknown.

what is known with 100% certainty in DE?

You have been safely cutting those threads to date, with each one just seeing clearer, why would this be any different? Metaphorically speaking, cutting this last thread, is just freeing this beautiful piece of silk from the restricted loom.
When you cut threads of fabric the fabric is still in your hands. The fabric in your hand just adjusts its shape each cut you make a cut.
You want control.... you have NEVER had control. : - )
Do you still believe that you control anything?
I’m assuming it’s into a permanent state of DE and letting go of all thought and body.
Yes & no – for some of us the permanent state of DE etc only lasts for a temporary period (for me 2 months of bliss) then there are other delusions to work on... (the illusions of ill will & desire, form & formlessness, beingness, restlessness & ignorance). ... and when it’s time I can help you. For now, just be assured that once let go, once you cut the last threads in the belief in a separate self, there will still be a V functioning perfectly in the world, but from a place of growing peace and contentment, not attached to outcomes & false views but feeling equanimity, love etc.

Don’t worry about the final letting go right now. I think you will relax into this a bit more as we look deeper, tomorrow we’ll look at the body. But I’ll let you absorb this and check out the above first questions first.

Pretty much everyone experiences some fear. Without it, I might suspect people aren’t looking deeply or truthfully enough. You are being courageous on this path, and doing very well.
Love
Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:33 am

Hi Taran

Thank you for your long and thorough reply. It’s very very helpful and Your understanding is supportive and useful. Much appreciated ! Thank you also, for giving me some time to be with your reply a bit. That’s helpful too. I’ll probably need to read it a few more times. The answers to your questions have come easily though.... so here they are...
Someone once told me that FEAR stood for False Evidence Appearing Real .... so can you find fear in direct experience? What is fear?
No I can’t find fear in direct experience. Fear is a thought.’False Evidence Appearing Real’ fits and makes sense in theory and in much practice but there’s still a sense of it.... or at least a sense of hesitation. I’ll answer the rest of your questions and see how I feel at the end of doing that.
Where exactly is the resistant part of me?
In thought only!

Where is the ‘me’ that could be resistant....in your big toe? behind your eyes?
In an illusion.
What is “difficult” in direct experience?

nothing. It just is what it is. It just IS.

I know this from my work with SE (somatic experience).... ie when in extreme upset (overwhelmed, distressed etc) if we come back to the body, back to DE (ie asking ‘what am I hearing right now? seeing right now?, touching right now?,) and that’s all there is. It helps take one out of intense feelings, emotions and spiralling thoughts. It helps calm and soothe and settle ones self.

What I’m working with here with myself right now is much more subtle though. In a distressed upset state of what feels like emergency it’s easier (or it makes more sense) to turn to choose solely DE because ones suffering it’s so unbearable at that extreme moment.

But when one is generally already not really suffering much at all (which I’m not) then it’s very subtle. What I’m working with here with you Taran is very subtle. So I’m thinking why let go of my subtle illusion (which I know is an illusion anyway) when life is pretty calm already and I’m already pretty floaty.

Plus, I’m thinking ....surely I need a bit of thought and emotion otherwise what’s the point of having them? Where will my passion for life go? And my ability to think and act and make decisions and get’stuff’ done?

There was a time in my life where my mediation practice took me to a place where I was so detached from life I felt as is I was ‘as good as dead’ a sort of living dead or living spirit or observer in the ether.

Nothing really mattered. It did matter but I felt so strongly I was in a dream or illusion or a film that it was more as if I was just seeing what happened next. I was just in it but not in it. It was as if I saw the truth of existence and so there was no more ‘gritty’ living to do.

It’s difficult to describe but the outcome was that I didn’t like that experience because I didn’t know where it was going - so I changed my meditation practice to one of mindfulness in every moment rather than a sitting practice.

This mindfulness practice enabled (enables) me to be with the DE and watch my thoughts and watch my feelings and emotions, and observe my body whilst knowing I have them and I’m not them. I’ve been doing this practice since mid/late 1990s.

In the other practice, the sitting practice, I’d lost touch with my body, my feelings and to some large extent, my thoughts. In the mindful practice I’m aware of them more so it feels more grounded.

There’s something in this LU process or in my response to the LU process, that feels as if it is inviting me to take a step further with what I’ve been doing and I want to take this step.

Perhaps I’m holding on to what I think I already know because I’ve been spending most of my life stepping into unknowns and lately I decided it might be good to be more setting to stay in something known for a while. I don’t want to keep moving on all ALL the time. I want to stay still and be a bit more gentle with myself. I know in theory this process could achieve that but then I think maybe that static state is what I fear ..... like the state I had with the sitting practice that I stepped away from.
It’s certainly fearing that it might be unknown and partly my attachment to the little bit of sense of self I’ve got remaining.
You never had a self to have a sense of, it was only ever an idea ... You have nothing to lose. The words ‘sense’ & ‘feeling’ always indicates a thought (sometimes an interpretation of a body sensation, but not necessarily a correct interpretation.)
where is this ‘little bit of sense of self’ in DE, can you find it? (please look)
I’ve no idea where it is and it’s not in DE but I think when I realised I didn’t have it (in the 1990s when I was doing the sitting mediation practice) I must have chosen to reclaim the illusion just a bit because I didn’t like not having it.
what is known with 100% certainty in DE?

only the DE
When you cut threads of fabric the fabric is still in your hands. The fabric in your hand just adjusts its shape each cut you make a cut.
You want control.... you have NEVER had control. : - )
I know. But sometimes I like the illusion!
Do you still believe that you control anything?
No - I don’t think I’ve ever believed I’m in control or have control. It’s all just an illusion and out of (beyond) my control.

Death (the one at the end of life) illustrates that most clearly. We never know when or how we will die ....but clearly we will die because we see everyone else die. And there is a death of each moment too - that is the same. It dies before our eyes.

Thank you again for sharing yourself and you time with me on this process. I don’t know if anything I’ve written fives you any ideas as to where to go next with me by hopefully it will.

It feels to me as if I’m mostly just talking to avoid letting go. But beside that I’m also trying to give you as much information as I can so that the jetting go is a good thorough one not a temporary or half hearted one. I must be trying to let go of control but possibly I’m trying to control how I do that too! Exhausting! Frustrating!

I trust you’ll know what to do next.... what best to do with me!!! (I’m laughing now!)

Love Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:18 am

Hi V
What is “difficult” in direct experience?
nothing. It just is what it is. It just IS.

Please answer the question when looking with DE. What is "difficult' in DE? Is it a thought, smell, colour, sound etc...what is it?

You need to be looking at EVERYTHING as DE and not just some things...because this is the key to realising that there is no separate self that is thinking, saying, feeling or doing. What does the label 'difficult' point to exactly? Does it point to any actual direct experience or to thought and its content?
In a distressed upset state of what feels like emergency it’s easier (or it makes more sense) to turn to choose solely DE because ones suffering it’s so unbearable at that extreme moment.
So the aim here, is to work towards there being no suffering, and yes ultimately to be in DE all the time.
So I’m thinking why let go of my subtle illusion (which I know is an illusion anyway) when life is pretty calm already and I’m already pretty floaty.
Well this process isn’t about feeling floaty, it is just about not having any illusion at all.
You keep referring to a 'me' that is in different states and who likes and dislikes.
Where is this 'me' exactly? The point of looking is for you to look everyday, throughout your day to see who this "I" is that the mind keeps referring to and to see if you can find it.
Plus, I’m thinking ....surely I need a bit of thought and emotion otherwise what’s the point of having them?
Thoughts may or may not lessen, for some they drop until needed, but they will still happen.
And where exactly is this "I" that is thinking? Where is it located and what does it look like?
Emotions will still happen. But an emotion with nothing attached to it lasts about only a few seconds (Somewhere between 30-90secs depending what you read) .... they just flow through.

Where will my passion for life go? And [/color]my ability to think and act and make decisions and get ’stuff’ done?
What "I"? Passion for life appears...but is it actually happening to a someone? Can you find that someone? If you look and cannot find an "I/me" anywhere...then why is there now an "I" that is concerned about where passion for life will go? What is it exactly that has a passion for life? There has never been a ‘V’self....ever and yet "passion for life" appeared. You need to be persistent and consistent in your looking. There is either an "I" or there isn't....you can't have it both ways.

NB if you have always been able to ‘get stuff done’ then getting stuff done will still happen. Passion for life will still be there too.
There was a time in my life where my mediation practice took me to a place where I was so detached from life I felt as is I was ‘as good as dead’ a sort of living dead or living spirit or observer in the ether.
That is not a state that LU will take you to....this DP process is far more gritty & real.
Nothing really mattered. It did matter but I felt so strongly I was in a dream or illusion or a film that it was more as if I was just seeing what happened next. I was just in it but not in it.
another state that people can experience.
It’s difficult to describe but the outcome was that I didn’t like that experience because I didn’t know where it was going - so I changed my meditation practice to one of mindfulness in every moment rather than a sitting practice.
Great well, as you should have witnessed already – this is just extreme mindfulness. Just keep applying DE to your experience.
In the other practice, the sitting practice, I’d lost touch with my body, my feelings and to some large extent, my thoughts. In the mindful practice I’m aware of them more so it feels more grounded.
Yep formless dhyana states can be ‘floaty’ and some people get attached to these states, and whilst they can be useful for some to slow the mind for the process of looking, for many they seem to just become an dissociative state- this is NOT what we do here.
There’s something in this LU process or in my response to the LU process, that feels as if it is inviting me to take a step further with what I’ve been doing and I want to take this step.
GREAT! Yes this is just a taking what you do a tiny step further.
where is this ‘little bit of sense of self’ in DE, can you find it? (please look)
I’ve no idea where it is and it’s not in DE
So is this any more than a thought then? AN idea?
Death (the one at the end of life) illustrates that most clearly. We never know when or how we will die ....but clearly we will die because we see everyone else die. And there is a death of each moment too - that is the same. It dies before our eyes.
what is the DE of death?


It feels to me as if I’m mostly just talking to avoid letting go. But beside that I’m also trying to give you as much information as I can so that the letting go is a good thorough one not a temporary or half hearted one.
This isn’t about letting go.... this is a realisation that you didn’t have anything to let go... it was just an idea.

So let’s look at the body

Sit eyes closed for approx 15mins.
pay attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images.
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In actual experience does the body have a shape or form?

Is there a boundary between the body and clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and chair (whatever you're sitting on)?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an insider - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label 'body' ACTUALLY refer to?

look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don't rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like hand washing, showering, walking etc) before replying.
(I know you usually do anyway).

Have fun
Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:42 am

Hi Taran

[
quote]Please answer the question when looking with DE. What is "difficult' in DE? Is it a thought, smell, colour, sound etc...what is it?
Sorry. I realise I slipped off the track a bit with that! I’ll try to keep on the DE track.
There’s nothing ‘difficult’ in DE - it’s just thought content that constructs ‘difficult’

You need to be looking at EVERYTHING as DE and not just some things...because this is the key to realising that there is no separate self that is thinking, saying, feeling or doing. What does the label 'difficult' point to exactly? Does it point to any actual direct experience or to thought and its content?[/quote]

the label ‘difficult’ points to thought and its content not DE
Well this process isn’t about feeling floaty, it is just about not having any illusion at all.


Ok thanks - I understand :-)
You keep referring to a 'me' that is in different states and who likes and dislikes.
Where is this 'me' exactly? The point of looking is for you to look everyday, throughout your day to see who this "I" is that the mind keeps referring to and to see if you can find it.
I can’t fine the me or I that I’m referring to. It’s a thought construct - and yet I keep looking! Why do I keep looking?!
Thoughts may or may not lessen, for some they drop until needed, but they will still happen.
And where exactly is this "I" that is thinking? Where is it located and what does it look like?
It’s just in thought content - so it doesn’t exist anywhere other than in thought content

Emotions will still happen. But an emotion with nothing attached to it lasts about only a few seconds (Somewhere between 30-90secs depending what you read) .... they just flow through.
Ok - thanks for explaining- I actually do get this
At the moment - when there an emotion I can see it arise and go as you say ....it’s only when thought comes in that though keeps the emotion going and puts layers on to it and frothed it up. Without thought going on to the emotion there just the rise and fall of an emotion.
What "I"? Passion for life appears...but is it actually happening to a someone? Can you find that someone? If you look and cannot find an "I/me" anywhere...then why is there now an "I" that is concerned about where passion for life will go? What is it exactly that has a passion for life? There has never been a ‘V’self....ever and yet "passion for life" appeared. You need to be persistent and consistent in your looking. There is either an "I" or there isn't....you can't have it both ways.
I is only in thought content - it’s a construct in thought. It’s not a DE

But thought content is sticky and is clearly attached to certain ideas!

I know I’m attached to the ‘I’ even thought I know it’s just thought content and not ‘real’ because it can’t be found in DE.

I get that ‘I’ is just as a concept in thought content because it’s been a construct which took years to focus on -, to deliberately build as a map or model to underarm the psyche. without that construct all the building blocks I have used to construct it need to come down. So what was all that investment of building that thought construct over years and years and decades in the first place if I now pull it down.... let it go. I know I need to but I don’t know how to. I know you’re trying to help but I don’t seem to be able to let go of certain thoughts. (Frustrated! )
what is the DE of death?


There’s no DE of death
Death is in thought content not in DE
So let’s look at the body
Sit eyes closed for approx 15mins.
pay attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images.
Can it be known how tall the body is?

NO
Does the body have a weight or volume?
no
In actual experience does the body have a shape or form?


no
Is there a boundary between the body and clothing?


no
Is there a boundary between the body and chair (whatever you're sitting on)?


no

Is there an inside or an outside?


no

[
quote]If there is an insider - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?


No - no inside or outside

Interestingly - Those last 6 questions were very easy and clear to answer. (Phew!)

They align with the way I perceive / experience the world and always have done. I get it! The thought content that came up when doing those questions was one of surprise that I got those so easily.

It seems as if it’s thought that I’m hung up on or holding on to the most - much more that feelings and body. Would you agree Taran?
What does the word/label 'body' ACTUALLY refer to?
[/quote]

I don’t know the answer to this question other than to say it refers to a thought construct of something seen by eye sight. (?)

Vx

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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:07 am

Hi V

There’s nothing ‘difficult’ in DE - it’s just thought content that constructs ‘difficult’
Well seen.
What does the label 'difficult' point to exactly? Does it point to any actual direct experience or to thought and its content?
the label ‘difficult’ points to thought and its content not DE
great
You keep referring to a 'me' that is in different states and who likes and dislikes. Where is this 'me' exactly?
I can’t find the me or I that I’m referring to. It’s a thought construct - and yet I keep looking!
Well it is good to keep looking until every part of you is convinced by this realisation.
Let’s take the fact that again you automatically referred to an "I" as a something that is doing something...even when you had just finished writing that the "I" is a thought construct! : - )

Looking doesn't stop...it is ongoing and becomes automatic and why would you want it to stop since it is confirming over and over that there is no "I" in any shape or form - and this is what needs to be seen over and over until it the penny drops!

There is no "I" that is looking. Can you find the "I" that is looking or is looking simply happening?
And where exactly is this "I" that is thinking? Where is it located and what does it look like?
It’s just in thought content - so it doesn’t exist anywhere other than in thought content
well seen
What "I"? Passion for life appears...but is it actually happening to a someone? Can you find that someone? If you look and cannot find an "I/me" anywhere...then why is there now an "I" that is concerned about where passion for life will go? What is it exactly that has a passion for life? There has never been a ‘V’self....ever and yet "passion for life" appeared. You need to be persistent and consistent in your looking. There is either an "I" or there isn't....you can't have it both ways.
I is only in thought content - it’s a construct in thought. It’s not a DE
There is no "a DE". DE is not things. The labels colour, smell, taste, sensation, sound, thought are labels that thought imposes on Reality, which divide Reality into seeming things. If you drop those labels...what is left? It is thought that divides and separates that which is whole and complete. There is no colour AND smell AND taste AND sound AND thought AND sensation....there is no AND. Coloursmelltastedoundthought sensation = experience exactly as it is and as you find it.
But thought content is sticky and is clearly attached to certain ideas!
Says what exactly?

Thought is sticky when it is attached to an emotion. And the DE of an emotion is simply sensation + label. The thoughts about the emotion, of what is causing the seeming emotion is content.
I know I’m attached to the ‘I’ even thought I know it’s just thought content and not ‘real’ because it can’t be found in DE.
where is this ‘I’ that is attached?
There is no attachment to ‘your’ stories or to the story about an “I” labelled V.
Your = thought story
Attachment = thought story, riding piggyback on the 'your' thought story.
Thought referring to thought.
Simply notice the story about the story.
See if you're actually in it.
And see if it's actually yours
I get that ‘I’ is just as a concept in thought content because it’s been a construct which took years to focus on ............. I know I need to but I don’t know how to. I know you’re trying to help but I don’t seem to be able to let go of certain thoughts. (Frustrated! )
Yeah I remember what is was like ....the frustation. It’s like everyone sees the image in the magic-eye picture and you can’t! But you will if you keep looking!
From above “I don’t seem to be able to let go of certain thoughts”
What is this? Where is the I?
what is the DE of death?

There’s no DE of death
Death is in thought content not in DE
Great




Simple Body exercise
Interestingly - Those last 6 questions were very easy and clear to answer. (Phew!)

They align with the way I perceive / experience the world and always have done. I get it!
The thought content that came up when doing those questions was one of surprise that I got those so easily.
Super and it can ALL be that easy the more you look and look – and you will see it.
It seems as if it’s thought that I’m hung up on or holding on to the most - much more that feelings and body. Would you agree Taran?
Well of course all of these two sentences is mere thought contact. But Yes it is believing in thought that you are doing the most. But all the exercises will help you change the thinking patterns.

What does the word/label 'body' ACTUALLY refer to?
I don’t know the answer to this question other than to say it refers to a thought construct of something seen by eye sight. (?)
Good, yes there is no DE of body, it is a thought construct. (yep we might use the a label for something seen or touched.)

The DE of the WORD/LABEL 'body' is DE of thought! Thought points to sensations and colour and labels them as body. But when we look at the sensations and colours we see that they do not suggest in any way that they are a body.

Have fun
Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:30 am

Hi Taran

Some quotes from the previous post are repeated below - I’ve done that so I can reply to separate parts of what you’ve written. Hope that’s not too confusing. It seemed more thorough to do this on this occasion. Hope it’s clear.
Well it is good to keep looking until every part of you is convinced by this realisation.
I’m confused here. If there’s no me to be convinced - how can I be convinced. ? There’s only thought content - which I assume can’t be convinced - can only change. ?
Let’s take the fact that again you automatically referred to an "I" as a something that is doing something...even when you had just finished writing that the "I" is a thought construct! : - )
How else can I describe things and write to you without using I ? even though I know that ‘I’ is a thought construct I still need to write and say ‘I’ in order to be understood surely? Don’t I?
Looking doesn't stop...it is ongoing and becomes automatic and why would you want it to stop since it is confirming over and over that there is no "I" in any shape or form - and this is what needs to be seen over and over until it the penny drops!
I do get this (that there’s no I ) because I can actually remember times of DE when I was coming into form - before I had that thought construct. (But maybe the remembering us also thought content?) I do seem to remember when there was no sense of an I though - Just DE. Doing this LU process is reminding me of that time. And when I remember that time I really get it. It’s this just thought content arising though???? Confused? This is doing my head in!
There is no "I" that is looking. Can you find the "I" that is looking or is looking simply happening?
Looking is simply happening. I can’t find the I that is looking.
But thought content is sticky and is clearly attached to certain ideas!
Says what exactly?
I’m not sure I understand your question (?)
Thought content keeps arising
Thought is sticky when it is attached to an emotion. And the DE of an emotion is simply sensation + label. The thoughts about the emotion, of what is causing the seeming emotion is content.


the thought that is sticky in this case is that ‘there is a need to have an I (even if it’s just as a construct, which it clearly is - I do know this) in order to be in the world’. This thought is attached to an emotion, and this particular emotion has been born out of a large investment (of time and money) in the idea of ‘I’ being an essential element required for psychological and spiritual development.

Even as I write this I’m aware it’s not true AND aware the sticky attachment is strong. What to do?!
Yeah I remember what is was like ....the frustation. It’s like everyone sees the image in the magic-eye picture and you can’t! But you will if you keep looking!

I usually take ages to get those!
I know I’m attached to the ‘I’ even thought I know it’s just thought content and not ‘real’ because it can’t be found in DE.
where is this ‘I’ that is attached?
It can’t be found because it’s only thought content - so the attachment must be thought content too
Yeah I remember what is was like ....the frustation. It’s like everyone sees the image in the magic-eye picture and you can’t! But you will if you keep looking!
From above “I don’t seem to be able to let go of certain thoughts”
What is this? Where is the I?


It’s just thought content.
I can’t find the I

Thanks Taran
V x


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