Looking for the Guide Taran

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:35 am

Hi Taran
So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen? Is there a choice in what you see, in what you are aware of?
no to all your questions
Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?
no
Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?
no
Can you turn off seeing?
No
Is there a chooser who chooses what is seen?
No
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
I don’t understand this question - if you’re not aware of something you can choose it as it’s not an option available to you

Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:16 pm

Dear V
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
I don’t understand this question - if you’re not aware of something you can choose it as it’s not an option available to you
Exactly! If you’re not aware of something, then how can it exist? It would just be an idea. Even if you are aware of some ‘thing’, it is not a ‘thing’, it is not an object…there are no objects in direct experience.

Here is an old koan to ponder.... If a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?

The only reality in any given moment is what you are aware of i.e. colour, smell, taste, sensation, sound, thought. And when you look at what thought is pointing to, it either points to direct experience or to stories about direct experience -which are fantasy. The Buddha was pointing at freedom being in living in direct experience.

From our chat I know that you are very busy at the moment, and feeling slightly overwhelmed, so I will give you one simple exercise per day.

It seems that looking to see there is no controller, chooser or decider is the working ground at the moment, I gather this is something that you get when you are doing the exercises, which is great, but there appears to still part of you that thinks any moment now you will find someone or something that is the doer of these. So let’s do continue on this theme of looking at the idea of a chooser/controller.

Please continue to keep repeating where appropriate (or looking in similar ways at other simple daily tasks), and I will try to remind you each evening to respond, so that you don't need to reply immediately to the exercise message.

Please keep letting me know how the exercise is affecting you, as well as the answers.
So here is one, possibly now for tomorrow morning.


GETTING UP FROM BED
Can you find a controller/chooser making you get up from bed?
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from?
What makes the body get up?
Does a ‘chooser’, ‘controller’ ‘you’ or a thought command the body?
It's always interesting to see the difference between thought content and what really happens.

MAKING THE BED:
“Can you see a controller/chooser making the body leave the bed?”


When you have some spare time, over the next couple of weeks, please reread your whole thread, and let me know if there are any areas earlier on, that you would also like to go back to.

Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:03 pm

Hi Taran

[
quote]GETTING UP FROM BED

Can you find a controller/chooser making you get up from bed?
no - there seems to be a choice but no chooser making that choice - only a thought which is there but not making the choice
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from?
I don't know - it seems to be a sort of organic movement - like breathing - its automatic. Pondering your question I just lifted my arm and scratched my neck and then my head. As I did that I watched it. It was as if my arm was another being. `Another creature crawling around my neck and head. It didn't seem to be any attachment to my body. I had no control of it and it had a mind (or action) of its own. This is sort of what happens when I get up from be but because the whole body gets up from the bed its a different experience from an arm on its own. it feel harder to 'get' it when its a whole body rather than a limb.
What makes the body get up?
I don't know
Does a ‘chooser’, ‘controller’ ‘you’ or a thought command the body?
non of those.

It's always interesting to see the difference between thought content and what really happens.

MAKING THE BED:
“Can you see a controller/chooser making the body leave the bed?”
[/quote] no

Dear Taran, on trying to answer your questions here I feel quite nervous and upset and it feels important to point this out to you because I feel as if I have lost touch with what I 'had' in terms of awareness and understanding or recognition.

This process seemed to be so clear and flowing up. I was reading your messages, doing the exercises, writing my experience, and then posting that back to you quickly whilst it was fresh - like a first impression if you like... and then I was repeating the exercise continuously throughout the day, bedding in the experience, 'playing' with it and exploring it and being curious and watching it. Sort of letting it settle in me whilst at the same time checking it out again and again to be sure I hadn't got it wrong.

It all seemed to be very clear and easy and automatic and known...

however now I am feeling less flowing and rather jolty. Its as if I have lost my nerve somehow. I was doing this process in a way that felt right to me. I felt at ease with it and comfortable. I felt as if it was simply confirming what I already knew. Yet I was paying full attention because I needed to know I know it (if you see what I mean)
Sadly now I seem to have lost that ease and flow. Not sure if any of this will seem relevant to you but I am sharing it just in case.

So I have a couple of questions for you please...
Does it matter how one approaches this process?
Is feeling my confidence sureness and ease with it all has been knocked - part of the process?

Many thanks
Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:08 am

Hi V

Fantastic answers re the getting up & making the bed exercises. Well ‘looked’.
I just lifted my arm and scratched my neck and then my head. As I did that I watched it. It was as if my arm was another being. `Another creature crawling around my neck and head. It didn't seem to be any attachment to my body. I had no control of it and it had a mind (or action) of its own
Brilliant!.... the fact you have no control will become more and more clear, the more that you look in direct experience, rather than listen to thought content.
it feels harder to 'get' it when its a whole body rather than a limb.
It will get easier with practice, you might notice that thought believes the controller is inside your head, and therefore if your head moves it must be in control....is this what you think?.....and is it what you find?
Dear Taran, on trying to answer your questions here I feel quite nervous and upset and it feels important to point this out to you.
Sorry to hear you that you are nervous and upset, especially when you’re doing so well.
because I feel as if I have lost touch with what I 'had' in terms of awareness and understanding or recognition
Firstly, you only THINK you have lost touch, it is still there under your fears. Secondly, you will get to a point where you can’t lose touch with it (this may take a little work in further fetters, but you will certainly feel a deeper sense of that awareness at the end of the LU process). I guess you could consider it a bit like a game of snakes and ladders.
This process seemed to be so clear and flowing up. I was reading your messages, doing the exercises, writing my experience, and then posting that back to you quickly whilst it was fresh - like a first impression if you like... and then I was repeating the exercise continuously throughout the day, bedding in the experience, 'playing' with it and exploring it and being curious and watching it. Sort of letting it settle in me whilst at the same time checking it out again and again to be sure I hadn't got it wrong.
I’m sorry that I misunderstood this, and thought you weren’t doing the exercises more than once.
It all seemed to be very clear and easy and automatic and known...
however now I am feeling less flowing and rather jolty. Its as if I have lost my nerve somehow.
So you had a good level of awareness, and this process is asking you to look deeper, but it will come up with resistances (remember I said to point out those- so well done for sharing), and they will appear to be due to other causes.... parts of our mind don’t want to see the truth, and will find any excuse to go ‘but’ and usually this happens just when we are doing REALLY WELL.
You ARE doing really well!
I was doing this process in a way that felt right to me. I felt at ease with it and comfortable. I felt as if it was simply confirming what I already knew. Yet I was paying full attention because I needed to know I know it (if you see what I mean)
Sadly now I seem to have lost that ease and flow. Not sure if any of this will seem relevant to you but I am sharing it just in case.

So I have a couple of questions for you please...
Does it matter how one approaches this process?
Yes it does matter, however what you described above sounds perfect.

Looking all throughout your day with curiosity is super. Better than it feeling forced. I wonder if, since I unfortunately checked that you were looking more than just to complete the exercise, it has felt more forced – more trying to get it right? My apologies.

If you want to return to an immediate answer, and then just let me know the next day (or later the same day) if anything else is seen in your further practicing that's fine.

The main thing is to keep looking, keep curious and keep in direct experience (rather than listening to past thoughts and expectations).
Is feeling my confidence sureness and ease with it all has been knocked - part of the process
Sorry to hear your confidence, sureness and ease feel knocked – you are doing GREAT. And yes absolutely feeling shaken is part of the process....as described above the resistances will start rearing their heads now. This is what is the story of the Buddha under the bodhi tree is about, when Mara brings in all the things he can to distract the Buddha.

Trust me dear friend, I will get you to a deeper, stronger level of awareness if you stick with me in this process.

Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:22 am

Dear Taran

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful and thorough responses.

I appreciate your understanding and yes I will go back to replying soon after you send the message when I can and then I will follow through with repeating the exercises through out the day and beyond. That works for me. I can't always reply to your message straight away but I will if/when I can.
It will get easier with practice, you might notice that thought believes the controller is inside your head, and therefore if your head moves it must be in control...
.is this what you think?
absolutely not. I am under no illusion about the controller being inside my head.
.....and is it what you find?
No I don't find that if my head moves it must be in my head.

When I have a sense that there is a controller somewhere out there it is more like a very distant, far away controller. I sort of universal energy ......like a collective consciousness making the flow of things flow - like the moon that causes the waters of the world to move... that kind of thing.

Thanks again for your kind and reassuring message. I will continue to observe around the controller until I get your next instruction.

Thanks also for your apologies for misunderstanding. It goes both ways - I will try to be clearer about what I am doing. But if in doubt please ask.

Thanks Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:43 am

Hi V

Fab. It seems that we are back on track : - )
No I don't find that if my head moves it must be in my head.
Good....well seen.
When I have a sense that there is a controller somewhere out there it is more like a very distant, far away controller. I sort of universal energy ......like a collective consciousness making the flow of things flow - like the moon that causes the waters of the world to move... that kind of thing.
Well this may or may not be true.... for this process we have to set aside all beliefs, and surrender to not knowing ....Afterall, can you find any of this in direct experience?
Thanks again for your kind and reassuring message. I will continue to observe around the controller until I get your next instruction.
Thanks also for your apologies for misunderstanding. It goes both ways - I will try to be clearer about what I am doing. But if in doubt please ask.
Thank you
I wonder how you have got on with looking for the controller today?

So here’s an exercise for night time, though I guess you could try it at any time of day:
FALLING ASLEEP
Can you choose to fall asleep?
Can you find the moment/point/spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?


Let me know how you get on.
Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:20 am

Hi Taran

Sorry for a delayed reply I am on an intensive training course so I might be a bit slower to reply for the next couple of weeks but I will do my best.
Afterall, can you find any of this in direct experience?
No
FALLING ASLEEP
Can you choose to fall asleep?
Can you find the moment/point/spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?
No

If my answers are (or seem) too brief please ask me what else it is you need to know.

Many thanks
Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:19 am

Hi V

'no' is fine, if there are no emotional responses or “but’s” etc

The main thing is to keep checking in to find the chooser/controller as you go about the day, which I trust you will, so you don’t lose touch with what you are learning here, whilst involved in other training.

I will keep sending simple exercises until your course is over.

Today’s is

Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made.
Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?

After you have given clear answers, please examine and share any thoughts such as "well this is all very well for this exercise, but...." or other responses, emotions coming up etc

I hope the training course goes well.

Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:42 pm

Hi Taran,

Thanks for accommodating my training. I’m still regularly doing the exercises you are giving me too. I’m on an afternoon break from my training course at the moment so I will reply right now though because otherwise I’m not free again for another 24 hours.
Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made.
Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?
.

No.

I’ve done this over and over. I don’t ever know what number will pop up until the moment it flashes in my head or minds eye or where ever it is flashing.
After you have given clear answers, please examine and share any thoughts such as "well this is all very well for this exercise, but...." or other responses, emotions coming up etc
This exercise is at first ‘glance’ very simple and easy to do. I find it intriguing and each time I do it I’m more and more fascinated by it. I keep wanting to give it another try.

I close my eyes and think ‘number between 1 and 20’ and then I wait... it’s as if i am in a waiting room, waiting for something to come up. What’s intriguing to me is the time it takes for the number to appear. When I first started doing this the number came very quickly but it’s taking longer to come as I’ve done it more. this process of waiting for the number feels strangely comforting. I feel comforted by the fact that the number seems to come from nowhere.

V x

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:07 pm

Hi V
Well done.
This exercise is at first ‘glance’ very simple and easy to do. I find it intriguing and each time I do it I’m more and more fascinated by it. I keep wanting to give it another try.
Do do! :-)
I close my eyes and think ‘number between 1 and 20’ and then I wait... it’s as if i am in a waiting room, waiting for something to come up. What’s intriguing to me is the time it takes for the number to appear. When I first started doing this the number came very quickly but it’s taking longer to come as I’ve done it more. this process of waiting for the number feels strangely comforting. I feel comforted by the fact that the number seems to come from nowhere.
Yes really interesting how observance creates more space isn't it!?

Here's another exercise for your repertoire:

Go into another room, pick a random object and bring it back to the computer

Why did you choose that object?
Did you notice a point where choosing happened?


When you have tested this out a time or 3, let me know how you FELT about what you found?

Was there any emotional response? any resistance? any "but"?
Did a you do the choosing? What is your response emotionally to answering this?


Have fun
Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:29 pm

Hi Taran

Sorry for the delayed reply. My training course (which still has another week or so to go (including the weekends) is intense and on top of that my computer has had to go to ‘hospital’ for emergency assistance. So I’m struggling with old devices and limited access.

Anyhow I’m here now and have done the exercises....
Go into another room, pick a random object and bring it back to the computer. Why did you choose that object?
There was no reason. It was an impulse. No rational. It didn’t even feel like Intuition. More like an automatic response.
Did you notice a point where choosing happened?
There was no choosing. I didn’t ponder and consider - it was an automatic movement.
When you have tested this out a time or 3, let me know how you FELT about what you found?


I felt curious, intrigued, fascinated, and, like with the previous exercise I felt compelled to try it out again and again - almost like a game. Like discovering something new and wanting to try it again to see if it was a fluke (a one off). I wasn’t suspicious or mistrusting it though. I just wanted to see if there’d be changes if I kept doing it. Like with the numbers exercise where the more I did it the longer it took fir the number to come.
Was there any emotional response? any resistance? any "but"? I didn’t experience resistance. And even the desire to try it again didn’t feel like a ‘but’

Did you do the choosing? What is your response emotionally to answering this?
no I didn’t consciously choose. I just spontaneously moved towards something. Interestingly it didn’t feel as if it was a random something. It felt as if it was the exactly the right thing.

Thanks
V x

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:46 pm

Hi V
I hope the training course is going well. Sorry to hear about the computer problems!

Thank you for your answers from the exercise about randomly choosing an object.... I was very curious to know what objects you picked!... anyway, regarding the last line.....
It felt as if it was the exactly the right thing.
What is it exactly that is feeling this?
What is the DE of ‘It felt as if it was the exactly the right thing.’?
Does a feeling know what feels right or not right?
Is the feeling an actual sensation?


Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:28 am

Hi Taran

Thanks re my computer. Lots to do !
Meanwhile....
regarding the last line.....[/quote][/quote]
It felt as if it was the exactly the right thing.
What is it exactly that is feeling this?
I can’t pin point it. It feels as if it’s in my heart and or the rest of my body in terms of a calm sense.
What is the DE of ‘It felt as if it was the exactly the right thing.’?
the experience of ‘no anxiety’ something settled - a sort of calm in the body
Does a feeling know what feels right or not right?
I guess not. Not in that literal way. But maybe a different kind of knowing Is there. I think I’ve slipped into old language here. Apologies if that’s the case.I mean ‘Right’ as in settled and good.
Is the feeling an actual sensation?
no it’s a sense or an emotion.

Vx

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:26 am

Hi Taran

I’ve just looked over my replies to you in my previous post and realize I forgot to tell you some of the objects I picked up in the previous exercise. They include a little sculpture, a teddy, a toothbrush holder.....

Also I ive thought long and hard about my previous answers in my previous post to you

I’m referring to this but if our conversation.....
Thank you for your answers from the exercise about randomly choosing an object.... I was very curious to know what objects you picked!... anyway, regarding the last line.....
It felt as if it was the exactly the right thing.
What is it exactly that is feeling this?
What is the DE of ‘It felt as if it was the exactly the right thing.’?
Does a feeling know what feels right or not right?
Is the feeling an actual sensation?
In answer to your final question :
Is the feeling an actual sensation?
it’s definitely a sensation or sense of peace within the body. I’ve come back to this before hearing from you though, because I’ve been checking to see if it’s a sensation or not and it does feel like a direct bodily experience. It’s predominantly internal (ie within the body) rather than external - as in to do with touch with hands, but it does seem to be a direct bodily experience never the less.

So it’s not so much a knowing of right or wrong, it’s more that it’s simply an experience of falling into or settling into a rest, as opposed to the opposite of that which would be a sensation of perhaps a bubbling up from within.

I realize that ‘it feels right’ was a thought which came as a result of the internal physical sensations of noticeably deducted internal vibration.

I hope that explains a bit more.

Thanks
Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:33 am

Hi V
It is great that you have written again. For clarity, I will still pick up the points from your previous post, which I was just about to post and saw your new reply.
It felt as if it was the exactly the right thing.
What is it exactly that is feeling this?
I can’t pin point it. It feels as if it’s in my heart and or the rest of my body in terms of a calm sense.
Maybe it can’t be pinpointed because it cannot be found as DE?

What is the DE of ‘heart’? Is a ‘heart’ known as DE? Can you find a heart in sound, colour, smell, taste or sensation? Or is it simply the DE of thought?

The label ‘heart’ is DE of thought and not DE of a heart
The sensation labelled as ‘heart’ is DE of sensation and not DE of a heart
Thoughts about a ‘heart’ are DE of thought and not DE of a heart.
Can you see this?


We will be looking at the body later on…but for now….let’s look at the idea of the head.

Please IGNORE all thoughts and mental images of ‘head’ and ‘fingers’ and just answer from actual Direct experience. Close your eyes and take in a couple of deep breaths to settle the dust and keeping your eyes closed...

Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’.
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation (labelled ‘pressure’) and thoughts ABOUT a head?

Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
Have a look to see if fingers can actually be found. Can they?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or are there just thoughts about something being in between them

Without thought, how big is your head?
Without thought, does it have an inside or an outside?
Without thought, does it have a location?

Does a feeling know what feels right or not right?
I guess not. ....
No guesses!!! .... LOOK :-) but fantastic in your second post...
I realize that ‘it feels right’ was a thought
Yay well done!! Well seen.

Can you find a feeling as DE? Can you find a feeling in colour, sensation, smell, taste or sound? Or is it simply a thought?

Is the feeling an actual sensation?
no it’s a sense or an emotion.
And what is the DE of ‘sense’? Is it a colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation…or is it a thought?

An emotion = thought + sensation. So, is it an actual sensation or is it simply a thought?
Is the feeling an actual sensation?
it’s definitely a sensation or sense of peace within the body.

Can you find an “I” that is feeling this ‘sense of peace’?
Can you find an “I” in the sensation being labelled as ‘sense of peace’ (if it’s an actual sensation)?

Does the sensation itself suggest in anyway that it is a ‘sense of peace’.


Looking forward to your responses.
Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)


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