Looking for the Guide Taran

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
Taran
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:58 am

Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:08 am

Hi V

Thank you for that, well seen.

You could play with this over the next couple of days, perhaps with other sense e.g. sound and vision, perhaps watching people or cars... let me know how that goes.

Generally, I'm wondering how this is going for you, because you put such short sweet answers, I am not quite sure how things are 'landing'....

How are you feeling now you have investigated the nature of thought a bit and seen there is no controller?
Did this bring up any emotions for you?
Has there been any change in your experience since the exploration started?
Do you have any questions so far?



Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

User avatar
Viquillusion
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:14 am

Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:53 am

Dear Taran
You could play with this over the next couple of days, perhaps with other sense e.g. sound and vision, perhaps watching people or cars... let me know how that goes.
Thank you yes I’m happy to do that. But just to clarify with you.... I’m to do what exactly with (For example) people or cars?
Generally, I'm wondering how this is going for you, because you put such short sweet answers, I am not quite sure how things are 'landing'....
I’ve been putting brief or yes or no answers to your questions partly because that’s what I thought you were wanting based on a lot of the questions being closeD questions (Seeming to require a yes or no answer) rather than open questions.

So I wanted to be brief to be clear (for you and for me) so I did the exercise until my answer was (or seemed to be) clear enough to give a yes or a no answer.

Also I haven’t really felt I had much to say after a yes or no because if I were to start thinking and analyzing and reflecting I thought I might get myself into trouble! (not with you 😂 but with myself!) I thought it best not to think or feel beyond the actual exercise but just let the experience and the recognition Of the experience get absorbed more deeply into my being and my general experience of life....if you see what I mean.

Plus another reason for brief answers is that I’m aware you’re time is precious and your work on LU is a gift to I didn’t want to (and don’t want to) take more of your time than is absolutely necessary.🙏🏼

I’m happy to elaborate in the future if that’s what you need from me but up till now I only expanded on things when I felt it necessary.
How are you feeling now you have investigated the nature of thought a bit and seen there is no controller?
The hand exercise was awesome. I’ve always felt that I am energy Occupying this body and on Numerous occasions I’ve had experience of not being in it and needing to get back in it (or not as the case may be) and on occasions I’ve felt I was lurking somewhere Near it so the last two exercises have felt reassuring in that other people know this too.

Did this bring up any emotions for you? Confirmation and reassurance May have brought up a sense of completeness or calm but I am only making that up now. I wasn’t aware of any emotion at the time of the exercise other than ‘yes’ which isn’t an emotion but might have had a sense of warmth, knowing and wonderment with it(?)
Has there been any change in your experience since the exploration started?
Mostly not because I think I’m doing a lot of that in my daily life anyhow. But the most subtle thing that’s intriguing me is the no controller - demonstrated in the hand exercises. I understand about sensations vision and thoughts Being seperate from one another but wasnt so aware of no controller as is demonstrated In the hand exercise.
D o you have any questions so far?
Non other than mentioned earlier in this post - as in please can you explain exactly what it is you are asking me to keep doing (You suggested with people and cars)

Many thanks for all your time and attention and guidance
Vx

User avatar
Taran
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:58 am

Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:52 am

Hi V
Thank you for all of that, it's a very helpful update.

I really like your clarity, you come into this process more aware than many people, but as my mentor has pointed out to me, without knowing where the resistances, or 'ah-ha' moments or wobbles happen for you, we don't know which corners to help guide you to "dust out" a bit more. I'll respond to the specifics of what you wrote more fully later.


Just a brief response for the on going exercise where I mentioned sound & vision and e.g. people and cars.... apologies for not being clear!

So what I meant was, if you observe your senses around a person, or perhaps a passing car in the street, a thought might suggest that "this noise relates to this vision".... is this true in your direct experience? Is one noise coming from the other or contained by the other, is there anything other than thought linking them?

I'll look forward to hearing.

Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

User avatar
Viquillusion
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:14 am

Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:45 pm

Hi Taran

No need for apologies but thank you for explaining a bit more about what you’re asking me to do in the exercise and for explaining why you need more from me in terms of what’s going on....I’ll try to answer more fully in the future.

[
quote]So what I meant was, if you observe your senses around a person, or perhaps a passing car in the street, a thought might suggest that "this noise relates to this vision"....

....is this true in your direct experience? Is one noise coming from the other or contained by the other, is there anything other than thought linking them?
[/quote]

I’d say (intuitively) that thought is the only thing that is linking them.

Vx

User avatar
Taran
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:58 am

Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:48 pm

Hi V

With regard to the Q&A about how things are going, thank you again, that was truly helpful. Learning to guide is a pleasure, and helping people an honour, particularly when they’re obviously very keen to see this. You are doing very well.
Also I haven’t really felt I had much to say after a yes or no because if I were to start thinking and analyzing and reflecting I thought I might get myself into trouble! (not with you 😂 but with myself!) I thought it best not to think or feel beyond the actual exercise but just let the experience and the recognition Of the experience get absorbed more deeply into my being and my general experience of life....if you see what I mean.
Yes I do know exactly what you mean! However if I was to push you into more thinking .... what might the “trouble” be? Have you spotted any particular resistant train of thinking?
Plus another reason for brief answers is that I’m aware you’re time is precious and your work on LU is a gift to I didn’t want to (and don’t want to) take more of your time than is absolutely necessary. I’m happy to elaborate in the future if that’s what you need from me but up till now I only expanded on things when I felt it necessary.

Bless you for being so considerate, it’s true that I don’t have the time (or energy) to have long philosophical conversations, but yes perhaps you can expand a little more... a ‘middle way’, where you can tell me any niggles or resistances, or wobbles, or anything ‘exciting’... basically any emotional responses or resistant thinking.

Did this bring up any emotions for you?
Confirmation and reassurance May have brought up a sense of completeness or calm but I am only making that up now.
How great you see that revisiting your memories is “making that up”.
Has there been any change in your experience since the exploration started?
Thank you good to note, we’ll work some more with this.


Let me know how you get on
Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

User avatar
Taran
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:58 am

Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:53 pm

Apologies was trying to change “let me know how you get on”
To a question!....
I’d say (intuitively) that thought is the only thing that is linking them.

What did/do you find in direct experience, when you did/do the exercise ?

Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

User avatar
Viquillusion
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:14 am

Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:10 pm

[
quote]what might the “trouble” be?
Confuse myself and take myself away from seeing clearly - deluding myself
Have you spotted any particular resistant train of thinking?
[/quote] nothing that I’m strongly aware of but if I’m searching for something then I’d say theres some sort of sense of pushing a door open .......please see the answer to your next question (below) Which Might explain a bit more. it’s nothing big.... very subtle but I’m mentioning it because it’s what Came to mind in response to your question.
What did/do you find in direct experience, when you did/do the exercise ?
It was (Is) as if I was (Am) having to prize them (Thought and sound In the last exercise) apart like lift doors that are trying to close. It’s as if they were more conflated in this exercise than before. I get them apart but they are like lift doors. Less so the more I door the Exercise though. Hope that makes some sense!!!?

Vx

User avatar
Taran
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:58 am

Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:53 am

Hi V

That’s great, so what you will find helpful (well it helped me when I was in the process), is continually looking at this throughout your day in order for it to become a habit; until the looking just happens on its own. It's the continual looking that will make it feel less and less like having to prise a door open.

This is the sort of thing (i.e separating the sensory experience into individual senses and seeing it is thought that adds the conceptual connections) that you can do whilst washing up, going for a walk, having a shower etc. Let me know how you progress with this, as you notice changes, emotional responses, resistant thoughts etc.

Additionally, here’s another exercise for today:

Drink Exercise
The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience.

The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?


Let me know what happens :-)
Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

User avatar
Viquillusion
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:14 am

Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:27 pm

Hi Taran

You suggested I separate the sensory experiences into individual senses and seeing it is thought that adds the conceptual connections to the sensory experiences and that I can do further exercises to see this whilst washing up, going for a walk, having a shower etc. and to Let you know how I progress with this on going exercise, as I notice changes, emotional responses, resistant thoughts etc.

I am doing this frequently and need to keep doing this. I don't have anything more to report about this right now other than that I am seeing the thought adds conceptual connection between sensory experiences. I'll keep observing it.....

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
I didn't choose the qualities they popped up. I didn't choose preferences they sort of popped up too - by themselves.
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event?
I am not sure what you mean?
Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?
No it just happened
Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?
No and No

I
n step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?
No
Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’?
No
If so, what does this function look like?
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?
No a feeling cannot choose. No.

Sorry for vague (or brief or unfleshed out) answers. I have a heavy workload on at the moment and this is the first time have managed to get back to you to reply.

Thanks again for all your guidance.

Vx

User avatar
Taran
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:58 am

Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:40 pm

Hi V
Thank you for your answers..... how are you feeling about the idea of there being no chooser now?

Re following the senses
I am doing this frequently and need to keep doing this. I don't have anything more to report about this right now other than that I am seeing the thought adds conceptual connection between sensory experiences. I'll keep observing it.....
Great. It sounds like you are busy, let me know what you think about there being no chooser.

Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

User avatar
Taran
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:58 am

Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:42 pm

Hi V
Thank you for your answers..... how are you feeling about the idea of there being no chooser now?

Re following the senses
I am doing this frequently and need to keep doing this. I don't have anything more to report about this right now other than that I am seeing the thought adds conceptual connection between sensory experiences. I'll keep observing it.....
Great. It sounds like you are busy,

CORRECTION Please also let me know how watching the sensory experience goes!

Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

User avatar
Viquillusion
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:14 am

Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:25 am

Hi Taran
Thanks for your 2 replies.
how are you feeling about the idea of there being no chooser now?


You asked about controller but now say chooser. These feel slightly different to me. Are they the same to you? (For the purpose of your questions)

I’m mostly trying to trust and accept and watch the process. Basically I’ll alright. I’m well, happy, going about my business in my life and in this process and I’m exploring observing and experiencing - so no need to panic or get upset. Well - That’s all the rational thinking that’s keeping me calm I suppose.

Underneath that I’m wondering, sensing deeper, maybe a bit confused and a bit sad. But mostly curious..... When you say ‘no’ controller or no chooser I’m wondering ‘exactly HOW far does that go?’ And is ‘no controller Or no chooser’ Different from ‘no decider ’? And does ‘no chooser or no controller’ mean ‘no distinguishable Chooser or controller’ Actually mean ‘no controller’ at all or is there a controller somewhere of some sort even though we can’t feel it? I have Lots of questions coming up (obviously!! 🙄🤦🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️😂)
CORRECTION Please also let me know how watching the sensory experience goes!
I had a serious car crash some years ago and it felt as if I was knocked out of my body. For some time after the crash I felt as if I was lurking near my body but not properly in it.

When I watch my sensory experience (as I watch it more and more) and separate thought from sensory experience it feels more and more like that experience. I’ve also had numerous times where I’ve left my body. This exercise is reminding me of wha happened in those experiences too. It’s like thought is so clearly separate from sensory experience and getting into sensory experience is like slipping on a glove and getting back into it. Or getting back into a coat or a onesie suit or something like that. Thought without sensory experience sort of floats around on its own more clearly until I put the suit on - or get into the suit (which seems more like it - it’s more ‘getting into it’ rather than ‘putting it on’)

I don’t know whether any of this is relevant but I’m just trying to explain my experience as I do the exercise more and more.

Thanks
I hope you weren’t up too late replying to me last night Taran🙏🏼! It looks (from the time sent on the message) that you might have been. 🤔

I’ve got so much to practice explore and look at at the moment with these exercises that there’s absolutely no rush for you to reply so swiftly - especially at your expense. Controller or no controller, chooser or no chooser - you still need to take proper rest. 😉

All this makes me think of taking responsibility- which no chooser and/or no controller who is taking responsibility?

Thanks
Vx

User avatar
Taran
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:58 am

Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:19 am

Dear V

Thank you for sharing your thinking process, it is good that ‘curiosity’ was high in the responses.
You asked about controller but now say chooser. These feel slightly different to me.
apologies, I may have been mixing exercise questions.
When you are doing these exercises can you find either a controller or a chooser?
When you chose your drink, your food, what to household chore to do next – can you find a chooser or controller?

I had a serious car crash some years ago and it felt as if I was knocked out of my body. For some time after the crash I felt as if I was lurking near my body but not properly in it.

When I watch my sensory experience (as I watch it more and more) and separate thought from sensory experience it feels more and more like that experience. I’ve also had numerous times where I’ve left my body. .
I’m definitely not asking you to leave your body, but to be more observant of it, and just see that thought is one of 6 senses and is not any more important than the others.

Thank you for the concern about my sleep ☺️
All this makes me think of taking responsibility- which no chooser and/or no controller who is taking responsibility
It is good to keep remembering that the idea of a self is a delusion, something you never had.... so if “you” have always been responsible this will not change.

Who is taking responsibility? Well the Buddha would say life happens based upon conditions, I might say “who knows?!” but the point is I haven’t become irresponsible, I have just let life happen .... and without a “me” being in the way everything seems to be freer and I feel more loving.

So please look for a chooser and/or controller as you go about your day. Really LOOK and report from DE (not previous experience) . Let me know how it goes.
Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

User avatar
Viquillusion
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:14 am

Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:22 pm

Hi Taran
When you are doing these exercises can you find either a controller or a chooser?
no
When you chose your drink, your food, what to household chore to do next – can you find a chooser or controller?
No
So please look for a chooser and/or controller as you go about your day. Really LOOK and report from DE (not previous experience) . Let me know how it goes.
There’s no controller or chooser that I can find. It’s weird. I keep looking but I can’t find one. Thought tells me I ‘should’ be able to find one so I keep looking but each time there isn’t one. It feels as if there might be one so the looking becomes like stretching a muscle to reach for something that’s just out of reach and grasp .....but still I can’t find one.

I say is weird or strange but actually it’s a very familiar feeling and knowing - it’s just that thought is now one to it’ too.... and it’s thought that’s making it seem weird.

V x

User avatar
Taran
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:58 am

Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:09 am

Hi V
There’s no controller or chooser that I can find. It’s weird. I keep looking but I can’t find one.
Great!!
Thought tells me I ‘should’ be able to find one so I keep looking but each time there isn’t one. It feels as if there might be one so the looking becomes like stretching a muscle to reach for something that’s just out of reach and grasp .....but still I can’t find one.
Yeah well, thought likes to think a lot of things, and makes up all sorts of rubbish to keep us in suffering, most of which isn't true. :)
This is why we stick to direct experience of the here and now whenever possible.... the present is liberating, hence Eckhart Tolle's book title "The Power of Now". If you can't find something in DE, don't let thought create it (unless needed e.g. to plan an event).
Okay, so we have looked at the idea of a controller, decider/chooser..which all have to do with the idea of doership...so let's look at the idea of a doer, of doership.

For this exercise, we are only using the 'sense of seeing'.
Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:

Look to your right. Then look to your left.
Bring your head back to centre, now close your eyes and look in front.


Okay, so when you look to the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look to the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen? Is there a choice in what you see, in what you are aware of?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

Is there a chooser who chooses what is seen?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?


Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests