Looking for the Guide Taran

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:34 am

Hi V

Fantastic. I'm glad that exercise was crystal clear to you.

It is great that this is something you do this anyway, and it really IS worth continuing to watch how each thought arises and subsides, as an on-going process throughout your waking day. Observe the gap (be it a short subtle gap or a long gap) between each thought, and notice how the current thought is passing, and watch and wait for the next thought to arise/appear.

So if thoughts just appear and it isn't possible to choose which thoughts to have.... Can a thinker of thoughts be found in the gap? is there a you in control of thinking?


In your a private message, you said you thought there was something else about the cup exercise to see, so let's come back to something like that now, it might be clear now you're getting into the swing of the 'language' we use in this process. :-

There are two types of thoughts:
(1) Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
(2) Visual mental images of a ‘cup’

Today’s exercise is to look at this:


Close your eyes and imagine holding a watermelon in your hands.
Imagine it so vividly that it seems as if you can feel its weight, the shape and texture of the skin.
Hold it there, sensing it.

Then open your eyes.

What happened to the melon?
How about the sensation that was so believable?
Was there ever a melon in ‘reality’?
Was there an appearing mental image?
Was the content of the mental image (the melon) ‘real’?


The thoughts and mental images are real only as direct experience of thoughts and mental images, their appearance cannot be denied.


The thoughts and mental images are real only as a direct experience of thinking mental images, the ‘presence’ of thought cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about (like the watermelon ) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. In other words, the picture/idea that thought is ‘painting’ is the content of thought and is fictional.
Can you see this?

So whilst you are watching thoughts arise and pass, also really notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination.

Let me know how you get on.

Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:59 pm

Hi Taran

Thanks for this
So if thoughts just appear and it isn't possible to choose which thoughts to have.... Can a thinker of thoughts be found in the gap? is there a you in control of thinking?
No and No
What happened to the melon?
It faded and disappeared
How about the sensation that was so believable?
It faded and disappeared too
Was there ever a melon in ‘reality’?
No
Was there an appearing mental image?
Yes
Was the content of the mental image (the melon) ‘real’?
No
Can you see this?
Absolutely

Thanks
Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:10 pm

Hi V
Fantastic, that seems very clear.
Did the melon exercise clear up whatever you felt needed more looking from the cup exercise? Otherwise we can go back to that.
In the meantime here’s another little exercise for you to try....

Here’s an exercise about “I” labelling


Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes.

Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side.

If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the “self” side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened) get it?

Let me know how you get on and what you notice.
Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:50 am

Hi Taran

Thank you. Yes the melon exercise cleared up my queries around the tea cup exercise.
Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes.

Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side.

If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the “self” side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened) get it?

Let me know how you get on and what you notice.
All thoughts were ultimates related to self/I. Even if they Seemingly started About something other than self... Ie start off as ‘other’ they all stemmed back to self in some way.

All thoughts arose from sensory experiences sounds, touch, and visualisations (Images that appeared)

V x

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:34 pm

Hi V

I hope you’re having a good weekend. Thanks for the last exercise. Here’s another.

The following link is a 7 minute clip of a soccer game. If you prefer another sport...please feel free to find one to do this exercise with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy5pL-myDzw

1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.

2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.

Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice. It seems to feel as though they can influence, somehow, what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome. The commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.

3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.

4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound.
What did you find when doing this exercise?
Is the commentary on the soccer game a necessity for the play to happen?
And in the same way, is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?


Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:07 pm

Hi Taran

All is good here thanks. I hope you’re weekend has been enjoyable too.

Thanks for sending the next exercise.

Regarding your instructions.....
1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.

2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.

Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice. It seems to feel as though they can influence, somehow, what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome. The commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.

3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.

4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound
.
I’ve followed them. Thank you.
What did you find when doing this exercise?
I found that I:
1.) enjoyed Watching the movement in part 1 (silent viewing)
2.) didn’t want the narration In part 2. it interfered with my experience of the movement so I let the narration be just sound.
3.) was happy to experience in silence again
4.) found it harder to ignore the sound the second time around



[
quote]Is the commentary on the soccer game a necessity for the play to happen?[
The game is the game - commentary or not.
And in the same way, is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?
No.

Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:54 pm

Hi V
Great stuff...
2.) didn’t want the narration In part 2. it interfered with my experience of the movement so I let the narration be just sound.
So did you notice feeling more neutral to the muted video, while being more sucked in to the commentary version of the game kind of sucked you into the story that the commentator was telling? Did you experience A heightening of emotions when the commentator was commentating from heightened emotions? Also with the muted viewing, did you notice that without the commentary everything was viewed as the present moment – current action, whereas the commentator was mostly referring to what just happened ie past? Of course the same goes for your own inner commentator.

Here’s another exercise

Palm Flipping Exercise
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?


Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?


Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:43 am

So did you notice feeling more neutral to the muted video, while being more sucked in to the commentary version of the game kind of sucked you into the story that the commentator was telling?
Hi Taran
Did you experience A heightening of emotions when the commentator was commentating from heightened emotions?
yes
Also with the muted viewing, did you notice that without the commentary everything was viewed as the present moment – current action, whereas the commentator was mostly referring to what just happened ie past?
yes
Of course the same goes for your own inner commentator.
Yes in fact I think it was my inner commentary Trying to accept and blank out the outer commentary which distracted me the most! I nearly got the outer commentary to be just noise so I nearly felt as calm as with the silent Version but my thoughts around being calm and shutting out the detail and noise of the commentary lifted my emotional state a bit.


Palm Flipping Exercise
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.
Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-
How is the movement controlled?
not really sure. It doesn’t seem to be a thought.
Does a thought control it?
No I don’t think so. A thought about the movement or about having the movement (Just before the movement) can be close to the movement but not close enough For me to be sure that the thought is controlling the movement.
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
No
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?
No idea !
Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
this is really tricky.... I don’t think I can.
Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
not really sure who or what made that decision. I can think it was (or might have been) a thought (my thought) but that doesn’t seem true. That seems like just another thought.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
No.

V x

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:48 am

Hi Taran

My apologies- the answer to this question should have been in my previous post to you....
So did you notice feeling more neutral to the muted video, while being more sucked in to the commentary version of the game kind of sucked you into the story that the commentator was telling?
Yes I felt more neutral to the muted version. I wasn’t sucked into the detail content of the commentary In the commentary version but I was distracted by the noise of it and my thoughts around how to blank out the noise of it.

Thanks
Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:23 am

Hi V
That is great seeing in those two exercises.
I wasn’t sucked into the detail content of the commentary In the commentary version but I was distracted by the noise of it and my thoughts around how to blank out the noise of it.
After the last exercise, do you think you could blanked out the noise of the commentator... does you have any control of hearing?

Here is another similar exercise, let's really get this to sink in.

Raising hand exercise
1. Place both hands on the table in front of you, palms down.
2. Rest for a moment, then raise one hand in the air (but not the other).

Try to stay with your direct experience ( rather than going off into thought content).


What exactly is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is controlling the hand?
Can a 'controller' of any description be located?
can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?


have fun
Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:48 am

Hi Taran
After the last exercise, do you think you could blanked out the noise of the commentator... does you have any control of hearing?
No I don’t think I could blank out the noise of the commentary completely. No I don’t think I’ve got control of my hearing in that way,

I think I could change what the noise is or does in my head. I’m not sure how that happens but In the last exercise I did that to some extent. I mostly stopped listening to (Or hearing) the commentary in a way that the thought content about it distracted or upset me. Thought about commentary changed or lessened. I heard general noise. Perhaps I focused harder on the direct experience (similar to how I had on the silent version) and this resulted in less attention of thoughts on the commentary words content and the details Of that? The result was similar to how I’d hear speech in a foreign language when I’m In a country where I don’t understand that language. I hear noise happening but don’t (in the case of foreign country - can’t) understand the words so thought content is different from hearing commentary in English.

I’m not saying I controlled this In the exercise. I’m not exactly sure how it happened but I do know the commentary was initially disturbing To me so somehow I shut it off or changed it or my attitude towards it in some way changed so that it made it less disturbing. Another way to describe it might be how one is upset by traffic noise and then one thinks about it differently (Eg I Think of the noise as gushing water in a river for example) in order the make the noise more acceptable.

Does that make sense?
What exactly is choosing which hand to raise?
No idea.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
No
What is controlling the hand?
I don’t know.
Can a 'controller' of any description be located?
No.
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
No.

How is the decision made? I’ve no idea!

Vx

Ps I thought I’d completed this exercise and posted it a few hours ago but can’t find my responses on this thread so I’ve completed it again - please forgive me if you’ve already read responses to this exercise.

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:20 am

Hi V
I think I could change what the noise is or does in my head. I’m not sure how that happens but In the last exercise I did that to some extent. I mostly stopped listening to (Or hearing) the commentary in a way that the thought content about it distracted or upset me. Thought about commentary changed or lessened. I heard general noise. Perhaps I focused harder on the direct experience
Yes it would be that you were focussing more on the direct experience, as you have seen there is no controlling thought, and there is no controller of your hand, so how could you change the noise, other than your focus?

Again well done on the palm flipping and hand raising exercise, they are almost identical (which maybe why you thought you had done that earlier), it is just really important to see, so I thought the repetition would be useful.

Moving on then....

Please watch this short video clip which shows how there is no correlation between sensation and hand!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmt ... e=youtu.be


Let's have a look at the idea of what the hand moving actually is. Normally we believe that sensation is coming from sight (ie colour) - the object seen. In this example, the object being the ‘hand’ (colour labelled as ‘hand’). This exercise helps to start to see how the illusion of the body is ‘created’, so to speak. We will look further into the idea of the body later...but this exercise is a good follow on from hand flipping and the idea of something controlling the 'hand'.

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensation ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ (colour) and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight ie colour? In other words is the sensation actually ‘coming from’ the sight (colour labelled as ‘hand’), or only thought and mental constructs link them?


Let me know what you find.
Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:48 am

Hi Taran

Thank you for your message.

Please can you resend the link to the video as the current link isn’t working.

Thanks
Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:32 pm

Hi V
sorry to hear that link caused difficulties.

I have just tested this link below and it should work (click on it rather than trying to copy and paste), if it is still not working then go to youtube and search for "Is That My Real Hand?" the video comes up top of the list, and is linked to the National Geographic mag. (It is only a few minutes long).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmt ... e=youtu.be

Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:58 pm

Hi Taran,

Thanks for resending the link - it worked this time. I watched the film and did the exercise a few times. These are my conclusions....
Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ (colour) and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?
yes
Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?
Yes
Is there any link between the sensation and the sight ie colour? In other words is the sensation actually ‘coming from’ the sight (colour labelled as ‘hand’), or only thought and mental constructs link them?
Only thoughts and mental constructs link them

Thanks
Vx


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