Looking for the Guide Taran

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:53 am

Hi Taran

You asked me how the previous exercise was for me ie
How was that exercise for you?
I liked it. It seemed very simple and obvious so "I" enjoyed it. It makes sense to "me". "I" have sort of been aware of all of that on and off all of "my" life. So the exercise was quite fun in that it was nice to play with that familiar sense all again.
Can you attend to sensation exclusively?

Is the mind babbling about this and that.... labeling sensations etc ?
There might be moment of sensation exclusively but there is usually some kind of distant mind - not so much babbling about this and that but more labelling the sensations
Thought may say "I'm lying here" or "my body is lying here" or "a body is lying here"
But could this be known from pure sensation?
No
Thought might suggest "There's soft pressure against my back"
But could you know about "pressure" or "back" from pure sensation?
No
Can it be known how tall the body is?
No
Does the body have a specific size, shape or weight?
No
How many toes are there?
No idea
How does the exercise make "you" feel?
Comfortable. Like a recognition of a deep knowing. "I" like the feeling. It makes "me" feel calm and in touch with the bigness, the expanded ness, the sort of not "me" ness of "me". "I" doubt that makes much sense but it was the words that arose when "I" contemplated your question. "I" suppose what is trying to be expressed to you is that the exercise enables a greater more magnified sense of the knowing of the no self. Hope that does make sense.

Thanks
Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:03 am

HI V

Thanks for the responses - and well seen. It is good that 'you' are noting a more 'magnified sense of no self' when doing the exercises/going about life this way. This needs to become life. Thinking is a widely overrated tool, but has its uses for problem solving but really doesn't need to be listened too constantly.

I want you to get on with looking rather than philosophising and getting trapped by language. But something to ponder
'magnified sense of no self' - can you find that in direct experience? or is it just an idea?

With the exercises now you're really getting to grips with how things are in DE, let's go back to movement and control.

1. Hold a hand in front of you, palm down
2. Turn the palm up .... and down.... and so on!

Look very carefully at the direct experience of this:

How is the movement controlled?
Does thought control it?
Can a 'controller' of any description be found?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?
Track any decision point when a THOUGHT made the decision to turn the hand over and the hand turns immediately.
Who or what chose which hand (left or right) for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?.

Have fun
Taran x
No thought - no problem. (Byron Katie)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:34 am

Hi Taran
'magnified sense of no self' - can you find that in direct experience? or is it just an idea?
No this can't be found in direct experience - its just an idea :-)
1. Hold a hand in front of you, palm down
2. Turn the palm up .... and down.... and so on!
Look very carefully at the direct experience of this:
How is the movement controlled?
No idea
Does thought control it?
Theres no sense of thought controlling it
Can a 'controller' of any description be found?
No
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?
there is no decision that 'I' am aware of or can find
It just seems to happen automatically
Track any decision point when a THOUGHT made the decision to turn the hand over and the hand turns immediately.
'I' can't find such a point
When there is intention and focus on the thought the thought to turn the hand does happen but the the though remains the though and the turning of the hand still happens independently of the thought
Who or what chose which hand (left or right) for the exercise?
no one or thing chose the hand it just happened that a hand moved
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?.
no

The more conscious or aware 'I' am of this - who seems to be automatic movement the weirder it feels.

Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:51 am

HI V

Well done.

Did you notice that the hand turns without the thought that says 'turn the hand'.?

Here's another exercise...

Close your eyes & sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does.

So focus on focusing, attention, itself.

Do you move it (focus), or does it move by itself?

Hold focus on the breath, see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.

Is this something you control?

What moves attention?

Can anything be found that moves attention, or does attention/focus move on its own?

Is thought in control of attention?


I look forward to hearing
Taran x
No thought - no problem. (Byron Katie)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:58 pm

Hi Taran
Did you notice that the hand turns without the thought that says 'turn the hand'.?
Yes - that's what's so weird ....the more I watch this happening the more weird it seems
Close your eyes & sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does.

So focus on focusing, attention, itself.

Do you move it (focus), or does it move by itself?


it moves by itself
Hold focus on the breath, see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.

Is this something you control?
No
What moves attention?
I have no idea
Can anything be found that moves attention, or does attention/focus move on its own?
attention/focus moves on its own
Is thought in control of attention?

no

Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:54 am

Hi V
Great well done.

I would like you to raise a hand into the air. It doesn't matter which hand.
Look at it very closely. Did a thought “own” that? Was it a self that chose to do that?

Now, pretend someone just threw a ball at your head.
Watch the hand move, very quickly.
Does the hand “choose” to come up and catch the ball? Or does it just rise and catch it, without a thought?

Now, raise your hand and move it to the left, then to the right.
Watch the thoughts.
Look for a self, something which is not just a thought, which is able to move your hand.
Check and see where a story attaches to that thought, where the thought “I raised my hand” comes in. Before, during, or after the raising?


Have fun
Taran x
No thought - no problem. (Byron Katie)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:46 pm

Hi Taran
I would like you to raise a hand into the air. It doesn't matter which hand.
Look at it very closely. Did a thought “own” that? Was it a self that chose to do that?
No thought owns that movement
no self chose to do that
it was a spontaneous movement (well even that's a thought of course!)

Now, pretend someone just threw a ball at your head.
Watch the hand move, very quickly.
Does the hand “choose” to come up and catch the ball? Or does it just rise and catch it, without a thought?
No the hand does not choose
it just ruses up without a thought
Now, raise your hand and move it to the left, then to the right.
Watch the thoughts.
Look for a self, something which is not just a thought, which is able to move your hand.
Check and see where a story attaches to that thought, where the thought “I raised my hand” comes in. Before, during, or after the raising?
Theres nothing there - no self able to move the hand
the thought 'I raise my hand' comes in a fraction after the movement occurs

Thanks
Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:51 pm

Hi V

Well done! Great response!

I know you are looking at the exercises outside of your responses too. So are you seeing more and more that stuff just happens and that then there is a thought "I did this" or that? during your daily life? (tell me a bit about that if you are)

Let's continue looking at control, decisions and choice..... You've done this before, but let's do this again, as it should sink in even deeper this time around.

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in direct experience.

The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity. You need to get any two different drinks you like for this exercise, ie coffee, tea, herbal tea, water, etc.

One will be drink A the other will be drink B
Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B.
Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

Note: we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

So when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves?
If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?



2. Look at the drinks again and count to 5.
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

When you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat,
did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event?
Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?
Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?
Have you seen this function in action?


3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Again, Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 3 where you made a choice,
did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?
Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’?
If so, what does this function look like?


Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’?
Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?


In fact
Is there an "I" necessary for 'choosing'?

As usual, please answer ALL questions individually. And try to give more than a yes or no :) Looking forward to your answers.
No thought - no problem. (Byron Katie)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:44 pm

Hi Taran
So are you seeing more and more that stuff just happens and that then there is a thought "I did this" or that? during your daily life? (tell me a bit about that if you are)
Yes I am seeing more and more that stuff just happens and there there is thought - ' I ' am aware of this (observing this) a high percentage of the time. It is very apparent in the physical movements. The gap between the action or movement and then the thought is very clear - the thought being delayed and coming after the movement
So when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves?
If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
Cold drink or hot drink - both are the same type of tea but one is cold and in a different shaped mug
I did not 'choose' the qualites - the qualites just appear by themselves - they pop up or rise up
The pretence just arises on its own too
did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event?
Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?
Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?
Have you seen this function in action?
I did not 'choose' the sequence
I did not choose to shut down the preferences
I did not experience a mental function or faculty doing the choosing
I have not seen any function in action
did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?
Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’?
If so, what does this function look like?
There was not chooser
I did not witness or experience a mental function doing the choosing
Nothing arose saying 'I am the chooser'
There was no function to be seen - or maybe you meant something else by that question? There was an action that happened but no thing seen to make that action happen
But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’?
A feeling can't choose and I didn't even 'feel' as if I was doing the choosing - its as if "I" inhabit a body with sight and feelings and thought but the actual body is doing its own thing and the thoughts and emotions and sight and sound come in but are separate from the body and the body is a spontaneous moving creature that 'I' am inhabiting but not a part of.
Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?
No - that question feels like a riddle
Is there an "I" necessary for 'choosing'?
It certainly doesn't seem so. It seems as of the body is just getting on with things and doing its thing and no "I" is necessary at all. Weird!
And try to give more than a yes or no
Ive done my best with this. I hope its what you wanted but to be honest I am not sure what else you are wanting me to say though.

I say yes or no when the answer seems very clear to me. In those cases its seems that yes and no is all there is to say - plus on some of the occasions in the past when I elaborated on the answer a bit more than a yes or no you have told me not to analyse (or at lease that is what I read your reply to be saying) You seemed to be saying that what I am saying is just thought (which I agreed with) so please can you explain what more than yes and no are you looking for here?

Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:39 am

Hi V
Some good. answers - thank you, and when I said please put more than yes/no, your answers were great. (Previously I have been trying to get you to dig deeper in to the "I" stories and unquestioned beliefs.)
Is there an "I" necessary for 'choosing'?
It certainly doesn't seem so. It seems as of the body is just getting on with things and doing its thing and no "I" is necessary at all. Weird!
Wonderful! So there is no choice and no chooser :-)
A feeling can't choose and I didn't even 'feel' as if I was doing the choosing - its as if "I" inhabit a body with sight and feelings and thought but the actual body is doing its own thing and the thoughts and emotions and sight and sound come in but are separate from the body and the body is a spontaneous moving creature that 'I' am inhabiting but not a part of.
Ok so a feeling can’t choose, and “you” didn’t choose. However, we did body exercises before....

is there a body in DE?
Is there a moving creature body?
Are you inhabiting a body?
Where is the body that has senses and feelings?


Let me know what you find
Taran x
No thought - no problem. (Byron Katie)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:16 pm

Hi Taran
is there a body in DE?
Is there a moving creature body?
Are you inhabiting a body?
Where is the body that has senses and feelings?
These are difficult questions

I dont seem to have conclusive answers

There is no body in DE - I am sure of that

there seems to be a moving body creature experienced as a thought or seen through vision but it is therefore existing only in an imagined way - like in a movie

there is no 'me' to inhabit a body

Ive no idea where the body is that has senses and feelings - "I' dont think there is one - "I" think the body is sort of imagined - as it doesnt align with the DE - as demonstrated with the mirror exercises

Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:11 pm

Hi V
is there a body in DE?
Is there a moving creature body?
Are you inhabiting a body?
Where is the body that has senses and feelings?
These are difficult questions
No they really aren't dear friend!
I dont seem to have conclusive answers
that's because you're THINKING of an answer.... knowing you, and the way you have worded things... I suspect you're looking but then letting thinking confuse you! .... but it is good you are sharing, so that I know how to direct.
There is no body in DE - I am sure of that
exactly!

Here is the first part of the mirror investigation of the body. Do this before reading on!

Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen.
Repeat the exercise several times. Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.
(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

Super - now when you are ready, read on and answer the rest of the questions that have popped up from yesterday's response.
there seems to be a moving body creature experienced as a thought or seen through vision but it is therefore existing only in an imagined way - like in a movie
yes imagined.... so is this true in direct experience?
there is no 'me' to inhabit a body
correct there is no 'you' or 'me' to inhabit a body..... but where is the evidence there is a body all of a sudden?
is there a body in DE?

I've no idea where the body is that has senses and feelings - "I' dont think there is one - "I" think the body is sort of imagined - as it doesnt align with the DE - as demonstrated with the mirror exercises
you don't think and you do think in one sentence ; - ) are we thinking or looking? You are letting thoughts make it all seem so complicated.

So in direct experience is there a body?

happy looking
Taran x
No thought - no problem. (Byron Katie)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:50 pm

Hi Taran
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
No
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?
Just thoughts and mental images suggesting there is a connection
so is this true in direct experience?
no
but where is the evidence there is a body all of a sudden?
I dont know - but what you said here
knowing you, and the way you have worded things... I suspect you're looking but then letting thinking confuse you!
makes a lot of sense as that is exactly what was happening when I did that exercise a few days ago
is there a body in DE?
No
So in direct experience is there a body?

No - I can answer that really strongly and clearly, but then 'I' scratch my head and the sensations are felt in DE and as I do that thoughts pop in and say 'but how can there be sensations DE without a body ?!' Its as if 'I' am on a pivotal point and keep tipping one way and then the other - DE and then thought. Will try to keep that thought silent and answer your next questions or do your next tasks. ;-)

Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:26 am

Hi V

Thanks for your responses. well done.

Here is an exercise moving things on a little, and hopefully to clear things up further around the idea of a body.

Look into the mirror throughout the day. Body image appears... notice that all that's really there are some colours, and a thought-story saying 'these colours are my body'

When you return to the mirror each time, consider whether these 'body colours' have ever appeared before.

Has this body image + story ever appeared before - or is this the only time you have ever been aware of these *exact* colours and this exact story about the body?

Can you find any previous appearances of the body? Where are they? If not how can it be known that the body has appeared before?

Is the appearance just appearing 'now' with only a thought-story claiming you've seen this body before?

Do that for today and report back what you find.



Taran x
No thought - no problem. (Byron Katie)

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:47 am

hi V
Hope you are ok?
Taran x
No thought - no problem. (Byron Katie)


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