Looking for the Guide Taran

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:47 pm

Hi V

You seem very clear that there is no separate self when you are doing the exercises, but you don’t seem to truly “believe” it wholeheartedly.

Let’s do some more exercises, so we can get this understanding to be your 100% reality. I think we need to look more at the controller/decision maker. However, for today here’s an exercise to do before you answer the questions I have from yesterday's responses.

Close your eyes and imagine holding a watermelon in your hands.
Imagine it so vividly that it seems as if you can feel its weight, the shape and texture of the skin.
Hold it there, sensing it.

Then open your eyes.

What happened to the melon?
How about the sensation that was so believable?
Was there ever a melon in ‘reality’?
Was there an appearing mental image?
Was the content of the mental image (the melon) ‘real’?

What is the difference between the imagined melon and V-self?

If there are any differences, what are they?

Can these differences be found in your direct experience?

There are many things I’ve not seen and experienced in my DE and yet I believe they do exist beyond my experience because new discoveries are made every day.
Are these new discoveries any different to the watermelon?
What is a belief?


Experience, for example, can show up as a person getting prepared to travel, getting into the plane and flying to a different country.

But did experience travel, did it fly or did all that simply show up in/as experience?

Did experience go anywhere? Did anything travel at all? Or was it just a play of images with the story of a person traveling?

Have a close look, are other countries waiting just around the corner outside of experience ready to be explored or is this present experience all there is?


Images seems to change and thought stories seems to change that gives the impression that there is something other than this present experience somewhere outside of this experience.
That there is a past, a future, time, change etc...

But isn’t anything outside of this present experience just a presently known thought that seems to say that there is something more?

Can that which seems to be outside of experience be known besides the presently known thought of it?

If not then how can we state that there is anything outside of experience ?

And when a thought about a place that seemed to be outside of experience shows up in/as experience, was it because it was outside of experience waiting, or is it just that this is how experience shows up?


So what is it that you need to experience in order to be 100% certain that no separate self exists?

From where I stand or exist in my DE - I am 100% certain
Where do 'you' stand?

DO 'you' exist in DE?


Please keep looking for the self that you think exists behind everything you do.

Let me know how you get on.

It is good that you’re communicating your response beyond ‘yes’ & ‘no’, but yes also helpful to be clear whether you believe the additional thoughts or are just acknowledging passing thought content which you’re not buying into.
Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:57 pm

Hi Taran

You have asked me some very difficult questions. I will try to answer but I am having trouble understanding or getting my head around some of them.
Close your eyes and imagine holding a watermelon in your hands.
Imagine it so vividly that it seems as if you can feel its weight, the shape and texture of the skin.
Hold it there, sensing it.

Then open your eyes.

What happened to the melon?
It isn't there, but it hasn't 'gone' because it was only ever there in thought content
How about the sensation that was so believable?
same as above - imagination - thought content
Was there ever a melon in ‘reality’?

no
Was there an appearing mental image?
yes - within thought content
Was the content of the mental image (the melon) ‘real’?
no
What is the difference between the imagined melon and V-self?
probably not much other than the V self has DE
If there are any differences, what are they?
V self has DE
Can these differences be found in your direct experience?
no
There are many things I’ve not seen and experienced in my DE and yet I believe they do exist beyond my experience because new discoveries are made every day.
Are these new discoveries any different to the watermelon?
This is a tricky question to answer. They are not my discoveries - they are things other people have discovered - for example I have never seen the things deep down in the ocean or from outer space but others have - so just because I haven't had a DE of it doesnt mean it isn't there.
What is a belief?
thought content
Experience, for example, can show up as a person getting prepared to travel, getting into the plane and flying to a different country. But did experience travel, did it fly or did all that simply show up in/as experience?

Experience cannot travel or fly
The experience is DE at the time and then later, afterwards, it is thought content
Did experience go anywhere?

no
Did anything travel at all?

thought content imagines travel
Or was it just a play of images with the story of a person traveling?
yes that was it - and ~DE and then thought content holding the story
Have a close look, are other countries waiting just around the corner outside of experience ready to be explored or is this present experience all there is?

Present experience is all there is
Images seems to change and thought stories seems to change that gives the impression that there is something other than this present experience somewhere outside of this experience.
That there is a past, a future, time, change etc...
But isn’t anything outside of this present experience just a presently known thought that seems to say that there is something more?
Yes I agree
Can that which seems to be outside of experience be known besides the presently known thought of it?
no
If not then how can we state that there is anything outside of experience ?
there isn't
And when a thought about a place that seemed to be outside of experience shows up in/as experience, was it because it was outside of experience waiting, or is it just that this is how experience shows up?
I don't think it was 'waiting'
So what is it that you need to experience in order to be 100% certain that no separate self exists?
I am not sure - I feel certain, and as you said
"You seem very clear that there is no separate self when you are doing the exercises, but you don’t seem to truly “believe” it wholeheartedly."
you found a glitch and I am not sure whAT I need to bow it away or release it.
From where I stand or exist in my DE - I am 100% certain. Where do 'you' stand?

I am still not sure. As you have so astutely pointed out - It feels like I am 100% certain when I am doing the questions
but there is just the tinniest 'wondering' left.. Its as if I 'get it' and then can't quite hold on to it. Its not as if I completely lose it though - its such a tiny thing.
DO 'you' exist in DE?

no (well first I type 'no' with certainty and then I reflect and question it (with thought) and then I connect back into the answer being 'no'. And when I do that I drop deeper into the 'no' and really know it.... Its so subtle.... the knowing. Dose that make sense? It is as you described before - like those magic images where you can't see the image and then you can..... and then ou lose it again.... and then it comes back again. Appearing and disappearing.

Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:49 pm

Hi V
is the difference between the imagined melon and V-self?

probably not much other than the V self has DE
really? (given everything else you said!) Is there a V-self having DE? Or is there just DE?

This is exactly what will make the difference.....investigating the truth of everything in DE

What is the DE of the Vself?
The label ‘Vself’ is AE of thought and not AE of Vself
Colour labelled ‘Vself’ is AE of colour and not AE of Vself
Sound labelled ‘Vself’ is AE of sound and not AE of Vself
Sensation labelled ‘Vself’ is AE of sensation and not AE of Vself
Taste labelled ‘Vself’ is AE of taste and not AE of Vself
Smell labelled ‘Vself’ is AE of smell and not AE of Vself
Thoughts ABOUT Vself are AE of thought and not AE of Vself.


So label + colour + sound + sensation + taste + smell + thoughts about Vself are known…but is Vself actually known?

Does the label Vself know anything about Vself?
Does colour know anything about Vself?
Does sound know anything about Vself?
Does sensation know anything about Vself
Does taste know anything about Vself
Does smell know anything about Vself
Do the thought themselves know anything about Vself?


Can an object called ‘Vself’ be found at all, or all that is experienced is label + colour + sound + sensation + taste + smell + thought?
Present experience is all there is
Great – well seen.

So why do you say this then....
They are not my discoveries - they are things other people have discovered - for example I have never seen the things deep down in the ocean or from outer space but others have - so just because I haven't had a DE of it doesnt mean it isn't there.
In direct experience where is there evidence for this? People may or may not be making discoveries but is this in direct experience? How do you know the truth of this?

It’s only a tricky question to answer if you use thinking as your means to answer the question. If you actually LOOK and see what the DE is..then it’s not a tricky question at all. It is no different to me asking you what the DE of an ‘apple’ is.

What people? What others? What is the DE of others?

You are not LOOKING, you are thinking.
What is the DE of “deep down in the ocean”?
What is the DE of “outer space”?


If thought says that you saw a ‘spectacular sunrise’ yesterday…is that sunrise experience as you presently find it? No…so it is just thought story ie ‘imagination’. If however, the colours labelled ‘spectacular sunrise’ is experience as you presently find it (i.e. now), then thought is pointing to actual experience as you presently find it (i.e. your direct, actual experience). In other words the colour that thought is referring to as a 'sunrise' is what is actually appearing now. Thought either points to actual experience as you presently find it...or it is pointing to thoughts about thought if the ‘sunrise’ is not the current experience, so it only equates to story...thought fluff/imagination – thoughts about thoughts.

Is this clear?
What is a belief?
thought content
Yes and more to the point, it’s unexamined thought content!
Experience, for example, can show up as a person getting prepared to travel, getting into the plane and flying to a different country. But did experience travel, did it fly or did all that simply show up in/as experience?

Experience cannot travel or fly
The experience is DE at the time and then later, afterwards, it is thought content

'Do I actually KNOW this right now?'

That is the question that needs to be asked in order to LOOK and see clearly. .
Notice that there is only NOW and that means you have to LOOK without taking taking anything 'from the past' as knowing anything this instant. So, with this in mind, let’s look at the idea of flying.
Let’s say you are sitting in an aeroplane before take off. You are sitting with your eyes closed and asking yourself:-
- 'What do I know right now?'
- 'I’m sitting in an aeroplane'
- 'Do I actually KNOW that right now?'
- 'No. I'm sitting.'
- 'Do I actually KNOW that right now?'
- 'No. There is pressure'
- 'Do I actually KNOW that right now?'
- 'No. There is sensation'
- 'The plane is moving now'
- 'Do I actually KNOW that right now?'
- 'No. There is shaking.'
- 'Do I actually KNOW that right now?'
- 'No. There is sensation...
...and you keep questioning your thoughts and noticing what DE actually is.
So the point being made here is LOOKING isn't hard to do. Just look at what you actually KNOW right now.
I don't think it was 'waiting'
“I don’t think” is an idea....in your DE is experience ‘waiting’?
you found a glitch and I am not sure whAT I need to bow it away or release it.


– you need to look at EVERYTHING! Watch everything that you do, does a V-self exist in direct experience. Or does experience happen and then a thought pops u and says ‘I did this’?
I am still not sure. As you have so astutely pointed out - It feels like I am 100% certain when I am doing the questions
so treat your whole day like the questions. Question everything that you think.

Here is a suggestion on how to go about your day and taking absolutely EVERYTHING at face value.

You're in the kitchen and you hear a song playing from the other room. Of course, it’s only thought that says that, isn't it? So take that thought for face value. Then look again, that song isn't coming from anywhere is it? In fact, it is not a song at all, is it? Only thought says it’s a song. In reality it’s just sound. So, stick with that, discard everything that isn't obvious and apparent.

When you’re out shopping do the same. Stand still for a moment. Look around and thought will say that you are looking at other people shopping. But that is only thought that says that, isn’t it? So take the thought at face value i.e. as the DE of thought only. LOOK again. What thought points to as people, are in fact not people at all, but colour.

At your desk, if you to-do list is getting longer, you might think you are getting anxious because you aren’t able to meet a deadline. But that is only thought that says that, isn’t it? But LOOK again. What thought points to as a person at work getting anxious is in fact, sensation.

Do the same with smell and taste. This will help in breaking down what SEEMS to be happening into what actually IS.


no (well first I type 'no' with certainty and then I reflect and question it (with thought) and then I connect back into the answer being 'no'. And when I do that I drop deeper into the 'no' and really know it.... Its so subtle.... the knowing.
Great so keep looking and you will see the truth, that anything about a V-self is purely an idea.
Does that make sense?
Yes perfect sense. The losing it is when you start to believe thought.... question everything. Don’t be afraid of the ‘nauseous’ feeling either..... that’s a good sign.

Please do the exercises for a couple of days before responding.

Have fun – you’re doing well..... keep LOOKING

Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:18 pm

Hi Taran

Thanks for your response.

I’ll do as you’ve suggested and take a couple of days to do the exercises before I reply but firstly please can you answer a couple of questions for me?

What does AE stand for?
The label ‘Vself’ is AE of thought and not AE of Vself
Colour labelled ‘Vself’ is AE of colour and not AE of Vself
Sound labelled ‘Vself’ is AE of sound and not AE of Vself
Sensation labelled ‘Vself’ is AE of sensation and not AE of Vself
Taste labelled ‘Vself’ is AE of taste and not AE of Vself
Smell labelled ‘Vself’ is AE of smell and not AE of Vself
Thoughts ABOUT Vself are AE of thought and not AE of Vself.
And you said....
Don’t be afraid of the ‘nauseous’ feeling either..... that’s a good sign

Why is this a good sign?

Thanks
Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:05 pm

Hi V

Sorry .... my mistake

AE=actual experience, same as DE= direct experience. I use DE and forgot to change them (the AEs) for consistency.

Nausea and other sensations that feel a bit "wobbly" are all signs that the truth is very close.

Taran xx
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:26 pm

Hi Taran

Thanks for your message. I have been LOOKING as much as I can over the last few days. To be honest with you though I am exhausted with this process. I feel irritated and resistant. I am frustrated I can't quite get it and feel part of me doesnt want to totally get it. Anyhow I have done much more on all this and what you said in your last message is beginning to make more sense. I mean - I am getting it more and more. It was good to take some days to LOOK in the way you suggested as that helped me.
What is the DE of the Vself?
There is no DE of the Vself
The label ‘Vself’ is AE of thought and not AE of Vself
Colour labelled ‘Vself’ is AE of colour and not AE of Vself
Sound labelled ‘Vself’ is AE of sound and not AE of Vself
Sensation labelled ‘Vself’ is AE of sensation and not AE of Vself
Taste labelled ‘Vself’ is AE of taste and not AE of Vself
Smell labelled ‘Vself’ is AE of smell and not AE of Vself
Thoughts ABOUT Vself are AE of thought and not AE of Vself.

So label + colour + sound + sensation + taste + smell + thoughts about Vself are known…but is Vself actually known?
No
Does the label Vself know anything about Vself?
No
Does colour know anything about Vself?
Does sound know anything about Vself?
Does sensation know anything about Vself
Does taste know anything about Vself
Does smell know anything about Vself
Do the thought themselves know anything about Vself?
No
Can an object called ‘Vself’ be found at all, or all that is experienced is label + colour + sound + sensation + taste + smell + thought?
No object called Vself can be found - only labels

Present experience is all there is
Great – well seen.
So why do you say this then....
They are not my discoveries - they are things other people have discovered - for example I have never seen the things deep down in the ocean or from outer space but others have - so just because I haven't had a DE of it doesnt mean it isn't there.
I don't know. I am baffled at this. I guess its an urge to bring in thought and thought content.
In direct experience where is there evidence for this? People may or may not be making discoveries but is this in direct experience? How do you know the truth of this?
I don't - again its thought content
It’s only a tricky question to answer if you use thinking as your means to answer the question.
I get it
If you actually LOOK and see what the DE is..then it’s not a tricky question at all. It is no different to me asking you what the DE of an ‘apple’ is.
I can see this
You are not LOOKING, you are thinking.
Yes I can see this now - thanks for getting it clearer
What is the DE of “deep down in the ocean”?
There is none its just thought content again!
What is the DE of “outer space”?
Again - just thought content! (sigh!)
If thought says that you saw a ‘spectacular sunrise’ yesterday…is that sunrise experience as you presently find it? No…so it is just thought story ie ‘imagination’. If however, the colours labelled ‘spectacular sunrise’ is experience as you presently find it (i.e. now), then thought is pointing to actual experience as you presently find it (i.e. your direct, actual experience). In other words the colour that thought is referring to as a 'sunrise' is what is actually appearing now. Thought either points to actual experience as you presently find it...or it is pointing to thoughts about thought if the ‘sunrise’ is not the current experience, so it only equates to story...thought fluff/imagination – thoughts about thoughts.

Is this clear?


I get the past one being only thought but I am not quite understanding what you mean about thought pointing to an actual DE - isn't thought and thought content simply always though and thought content regardless of whether it is a story from yesterday or a moment in time right now?.
What is a belief?
thought content
Yes and more to the point, it’s unexamined thought content!
What do you mean about unexamined thought content? Isn't it all unexamined?
Experience, for example, can show up as a person getting prepared to travel, getting into the plane and flying to a different country. But did experience travel, did it fly or did all that simply show up in/as experience?

Experience cannot travel or fly
The experience is DE at the time and then later, afterwards, it is thought content
Yes I understand
'Do I actually KNOW this right now?'
That is the question that needs to be asked in order to LOOK and see clearly. .
Notice that there is only NOW and that means you have to LOOK without taking taking anything 'from the past' as knowing anything this instant. So, with this in mind, let’s look at the idea of flying.
Let’s say you are sitting in an aeroplane before take off. You are sitting with your eyes closed and asking yourself:-
- 'What do I know right now?'
- 'I’m sitting in an aeroplane'
- 'Do I actually KNOW that right now?'
- 'No. I'm sitting.'
- 'Do I actually KNOW that right now?'
- 'No. There is pressure'
- 'Do I actually KNOW that right now?'
- 'No. There is sensation'
- 'The plane is moving now'
- 'Do I actually KNOW that right now?'
- 'No. There is shaking.'
- 'Do I actually KNOW that right now?'
- 'No. There is sensation...
...and you keep questioning your thoughts and noticing what DE actually is.
So the point being made here is LOOKING isn't hard to do. Just look at what you actually KNOW right now.
This is VERY helpful. I really get this.
I don't think it was 'waiting'
“I don’t think” is an idea....in your DE is experience ‘waiting’?
no

– you need to look at EVERYTHING! Watch everything that you do, does a V-self exist in direct experience. Or does experience happen and then a thought pops u and says ‘I did this’?
No Vself doesnt exist in DE. Experience happens and then thought pops up and says something.

Thanks
Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:07 pm

Hi V
Lovely to hear from you and read your response
Thanks for your message. I have been LOOKING as much as I can over the last few days. To be honest with you though I am exhausted with this process. I feel irritated and resistant. I am frustrated I can't quite get it and feel part of me doesnt want to totally get it.
Is there an expectation here….what is it?

Whenever you look for the ‘me’ you become frustrated because you cannot find it …so stop looking for the ‘me’ because you won’t find it...ever!
Instead look at what is.

What is here underneath all thinking? Not conceptual, not an image? What is here right now? Move attention from mind images and thoughts to actuality, this very moment, what are you noticing?


Also this bit might help us with digging out your fears....
part of me doesnt want to totally get it.
why?.... what is it you’re afraid of ?

Anyhow I have done much more on all this and what you said in your last message is beginning to make more sense. I mean - I am getting it more and more. It was good to take some days to LOOK in the way you suggested as that helped me.
Well done! 
Great – well seen.
So why do you say this then....
They are not my discoveries - they are things other people have discovered - for example I have never seen the things deep down in the ocean or from outer space but others have - so just because I haven't had a DE of it doesnt mean it isn't there.
I don't know. I am baffled at this. I guess its an urge to bring in thought and thought content.
Anytime you have to say “I guess”, that is indeed thought content.... if you could find “it” in DE you wouldn’t need to ‘guess’.
If thought says that you saw a ‘spectacular sunrise’ yesterday…is that sunrise experience as you presently find it? No…so it is just thought story ie ‘imagination’. If however, the colours labelled ‘spectacular sunrise’ is experience as you presently find it (i.e. now), then thought is pointing to actual experience as you presently find it (i.e. your direct, actual experience). In other words the colour that thought is referring to as a 'sunrise' is what is actually appearing now. Thought either points to actual experience as you presently find it...or it is pointing to thoughts about thought if the ‘sunrise’ is not the current experience, so it only equates to story...thought fluff/imagination – thoughts about thoughts.

Is this clear?
I get the past one being only thought but I am not quite understanding what you mean about thought pointing to an actual DE - isn't thought and thought content simply always thought and thought content regardless of whether it is a story from yesterday or a moment in time right now?
Yes, what the above is trying to express is that “ a sunset” is always a thought, the direct experience would be “colour”.
thought content
Yes and more to the point, it’s unexamined thought content!
What do you mean about unexamined thought content? Isn't it all unexamined?
Ha! Yes ... unless you have already examined it e.g. you might believe the blue or grey stuff outside your window is sky, so you look out the window right now and realise that whilst a thought says ‘I’m looking at sky’ your experience is ‘colour’ .... So having examined the experience and realising you can’t find ‘sky’ in DE then you could say that ‘I’m looking at sky’ has been examined and found to be pure thought content and not DE.... the belief it is sky would have fallen.

Well done for your looking. At the end of the above response you said
No Vself doesnt exist in DE. Experience happens and then thought pops up and says something.
How does it feel to see this?

Well done again for your efforts over the last few days.
looking forward to your next response
Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:54 pm

Hi Taran

Just as I was hoping you'd be giving me a rest over the weekend! ha ha!
Is there an expectation here….what is it?
I am expecting to find a Big Bang sort of truth or experience that there is no self. I mean, I know there is no Vself but I think that maybe I am expecting some sort of sudden realisation over and above and beyond what I already know.
What is here underneath all thinking? Not conceptual, not an image? What is here right now? Move attention from mind images and thoughts to actuality, this very moment, what are you noticing?
only DE
Also this bit might help us with digging out your fears....
part of me doesnt want to totally get it.
why?.... what is it you’re afraid of ?


I am afraid of realising, accepting and admitting that I have been 'lying' to myself about this. or resisting the truth. So NOW I am resisting *admitting* that I get it! I am resisting admitting I knew this all along. I just denied it or kept it well buried. In that respect I lied to myself and others in order to fit in. I tried to let myself believe something that I knew wasn't true or want sure was true.

It's a bit like the story of the emperors new clothes. I get that there are no clothes. I see there are no clothes but part of me wants to keep the pretence or illusion that there are clothes. It is as if I have lived my life knowing the truth of the nakedness but, like most people, (except for the boy who told it as it really was) I have been pretending that there are clothes. How do I now turn around and say I know there are no clothes and I knew it all along?! Perhaps I have been lying to myself in order to fit in. I have been colluding, withholding and in authentic. This might all just seem like 'thought content' to you Taran but to me its important - its a serious ethical issue which gives me great concern.

All the time that part of me doesnt quite 'get it' I present myself from being a total lying toad. :-(
No Vself doesnt exist in DE. Experience happens and then thought pops up and says something.
How does it feel to see this?


It feels fine - it feels ok. It makes sense. It's very clear. I feel calm. I know this place. It is very familiar. It is only when I lose this place that other feelings arise. (as in the bit above where I wrote so much!!!)

Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:36 am

Hi V

Thanks for your response.

The process here will lead to a fuller realisation where it isn’t something you dip in and out of.

When you are truly “through the gate” you will have wisdom, clarity and relaxation re your ethical question. (We need to look further at other aspects such as body and control for example.)
Is there an expectation here….what is it?
I am expecting to find a Big Bang sort of truth or experience that there is no self. I mean, I know there is no Vself but I think that maybe I am expecting some sort of sudden realisation over and above and beyond what I already know.
What would it feel like not to be a person? What it 'feels like' right now, is what it 'feels like' to not be a person. But thought doesn't know that, hence the 'expectation'.

So now that you are aware of your expectation you can just see it for the thought content that it is. The ‘I’ that is being referred to can only be found in the narrative.
What is here underneath all thinking? Not conceptual, not an image? What is here right now? Move attention from mind images and thoughts to actuality, this very moment, what are you noticing?
only DE
Okay…so go deeper now. When you suspend ALL labels and thoughts of DE and any other thoughts that are appearing….if you empty the mind of everything… what do you notice?

All the time that part of me doesnt quite 'get it' I present myself from being a total lying toad. :-(
What a wonderful story… and the “I” in the narrative gets to feel sorry for itself, yet again. It’s amazing how long these stories are cherished instead of been seen for what they actually are…simply thought and its content.
No Vself doesnt exist in DE. Experience happens and then thought pops up and says something.
How does it feel to see this?
It feels fine - it feels ok. It makes sense. It's very clear. I feel calm. I know this place. It is very familiar. It is only when I lose this place that other feelings arise. (as in the bit above where I wrote so much!!!)
And what exactly is it that loses “this place”?
What place exactly are you referring to?
What would happen if you gave yourself 'permission' to be awake instead of waiting for an event/experience to confirm that you already are?


Let's say a man is looking for paint in an art gallery, but he says that all he can see is trees and mountains and rivers and birds etc. etc.
His friend tells him there are no mountains or trees or rivers, there is only paint. Suddenly the man 'finds' the paint. Hurray !
But he seems to find it in a 'particular painting', a painting of red roses.
I've found it! I have finally found the paint, it's so obvious, it's been here all along!
He wanders around the art gallery delighted with himself. A few hours later he looks for the red roses again. (EXPECTATION)
But he can't find them.
I've lost it! I had it and I lost it! The paint is gone! And off he goes looking for the RED ROSES not the PAINT.

Can you see the point being made?
It might seem like you GOT THIS one day while sitting at the computer, sun shining and listening to your favourite music...feeling relaxed...

... And then all of a sudden…
BAM ! EXPERIENCE IS ALL THERE IS! OF COURSE! AND I AM EXPERIENCE!

But then the sun fades, the music comes to and end and you no longer feel relaxed. Thought changes, it no longer says “I got this, I am experience”, it now says “I am confused once again”.

Now it seems like you've lost it. And the search continues. A search for an EXPECTATION.

This also needs repeating I think....if you look for the ‘me’ you become frustrated because you cannot find it …so stop looking for the ‘me’ because you won’t find it...ever!
Instead look at what is.


As you go about your day, keep questioning
What is the DE of this moment? .... every moment but don’t let yourself get off the hook with “only DE”.... actually list what that means e.g colour (sky), sensation (touch of jumper) etc

Write up a fee examples during the day and let me know later what you found.

Have fun
Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Fri Dec 11, 2020 2:17 pm

Hi Taran
Okay…so go deeper now. When you suspend ALL labels and thoughts of DE and any other thoughts that are appearing….if you empty the mind of everything… what do you notice?
Just a sort of awareness or consciousness
No Vself doesnt exist in DE. Experience happens and then thought pops up and says something.
How does it feel to see this?
It feels fine - it feels ok. It makes sense. It's very clear. I feel calm. I know this place. It is very familiar. It is only when I lose this place that other feelings arise. (as in the bit above where I wrote so much!!!)
And what exactly is it that loses “this place”?
well its not so much that I lose this place as there is no I to lose something - but it is more that I slip back into the illusion of the I. Thought content comes in and ???????
What place exactly are you referring to?
the place of where I am fully aware of there being no Vself, where is all feels fine and makes sense and I feel calm.... the place where I am aware that thought content is popping up but am just watching it not grabbing onto it.
What would happen if you gave yourself 'permission' to be awake instead of waiting for an event/experience to confirm that you already are?
that would be nice. That is what I am trying to do.
As you go about your day, keep questioning
What is the DE of this moment? .... every moment but don’t let yourself get off the hook with “only DE”.... actually list what that means e.g colour (sky), sensation (touch of jumper) etc
I have been doing this a lot lately - and will keep doing it throughout the day. I will aim to get back to you about this over the weekend. - probably tomorrow.... but in the meantime I wanted to get the rest of this message off to you now.

Thanks
Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Sat Dec 12, 2020 12:30 am

Hi V

Thanks for your message.

I think it might be helpful if you sat with the questions and pondered them like koans before replying.

They are meant to provoke reflection in you that will help you see what is happening, rather than for you just to reply
immediately from thought .... as then I have to ask again in another way.

This was why a while back we asked you to reply at the end of the day. (I know you were worried about forgetting but couldn’t you set a phone reminder?)
And what exactly is it that loses “this place”?
well its not so much that I lose this place as there is no I to lose something - but it is more that I slip back into the illusion of the I. Thought content comes in and ???????
Thought content comes in
and you listen to it, without examining it.... that is all!

Stop it! Simples! :-)

What place exactly are you referring to?
the place of where I am fully aware of there being no Vself, where is all feels fine and makes sense and I feel calm.... the place where I am aware that thought content is popping up but am just watching it not grabbing onto it.

is this place findable? Or is it just another thought story?

What would happen if you gave yourself 'permission' to be awake instead of waiting for an event/experience to confirm that you already are?
that would be nice. That is what I am trying to do.

I hear you (hugs) but you didn’t actually answer the question.... try sitting with this for the day and see what comes up.
What would happen if you gave yourself 'permission' to be awake instead of waiting for an event/experience to confirm that you already are?

I look forward to that and some examples of your other experiences later in the weekend.

Taran xx
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:56 pm

Hi Taran,

Sorry for the delay in replying. I have been struggling with the LU website as I tried saving a reply in draft and then couldn't seem to retrieve it so I have been a bit preoccupied with the technology.

I have also been paying a lot of attention to DE though. ;-)
What place exactly are you referring to?
the place of where I am fully aware of there being no Vself, where is all feels fine and makes sense and I feel calm.... the place where I am aware that thought content is popping up but am just watching it not grabbing onto it.
is this place findable? Or is it just another thought story?
thought story
What would happen if you gave yourself 'permission' to be awake instead of waiting for an event/experience to confirm that you already are?
that would be nice. That is what I am trying to do.

I hear you (hugs) but you didn’t actually answer the question.... try sitting with this for the day and see what comes up.
What would happen if you gave yourself 'permission' to be awake instead of waiting for an event/experience to confirm that you already are?
I do give myself permission to be awake. I am not waiting for an event or experience.

I know I said in a previous reply to you that I thought maybe something was going to 'click' (that wasnt the word I used but it is what I meant) or suddenly I could 'see' (as with the magic drawings) but the only reason am imaging that and saying that is because I am where I am, and I am experiencing what I am experiencing, and I don't know how to be anywhere else or experience anything else. So as far as I am concerned I am awake or at least as awake as I am. Stuff just arises, there are thoughts and there is senses - there is DE that comes and there are thoughts that come up and go ....and that's just how it is. What can be done other than be in it's arising?

As far as I can see - there is no reason why I wouldn't give myself permission to be awake.

Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:15 pm

Hi V

Please give some examples of your experience in direct experience as requested, then we can get on with decision making and controlling.

You WILL have a clear shift when you have fully awakened.... you’re not there yet. :-)

I look forward to reading your examples.

Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:03 pm

Hi Taran
Please give some examples of your experience in direct experience as requested, then we can get on with decision making and controlling.
My experience in DE is one of watching (sensing) the DE and the arising thoughts as thought content.

It goes like this....

DE touch THOUGHT Arises - thought content is Pressure sofa ankle
DE sensation Thought arises thought content is heat warm foot
DE sensation thought content sensation of temperature cold toes
DE sight thought content eyes move in eye socket focus on light and heart shaped glass ball
DE sound thought content buzzing in ears, noise in head, is this tinnitus
DE touch and hear - thought arises content - movement of neck head leans slowly over to the side

Is that the sort of thing you meant Taran?

V x

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:53 pm

Dear V
Thank you for the exercises.
First, let’s return to your first message of today....
as far as I am concerned I am awake
What exactly is it that is awake? Where is the "I" that is concerned?
what can be done other than be in it’s arising?
To “be” with arisings points to their being an experiencer of experience. Experience can be found, but can an experiencer of experience be found?

Look carefully at the following:
A thought is known, right?
Where does thought (known) end, and the knowing of it begin?
Can you find the dividing line between the knowing of thought and thought itself?
I know I said in a previous reply to you that I thought maybe something was going to “click” (that wasn’t the word I used, but it is what I meant) or suddenly I could “see” (as with magic drawings) but the only reason I’m imagining that and saying that is because I am where I am, and I am experiencing what I am experiencing”.
where is the “I” that is experiencing “what I am experiencing” – did you look to see if you could find that I?
Did you look to see if that was all thought content?


You need to LOOK instead of thinking at everything!

You have to question everything. If you want to hang on to the idea of a separate self who is experiencing...to carry on being involved with that character, rather than questioning your beliefs, thoughts and feelings, then this process will go nowhere.

Are you afraid of getting the answers wrong?

There is no wrong or right answer from direct experience.

Re your second message:
My experience in DE is one of watching(sensing) the DE
where is the ‘My’? can you find a watcher or senser of direct experience?

Your examples were the sort of thing I was hoping to see.

Direct experience is purely “colour” (image), sound, smell, sensation, taste and the knowing of thought. It helps if you can use brackets or “speech marks” to clarify the experience.

e.g. colour (thought content “glass ball”) etc BUT make sure you also look to see if glass ball can be found, otherwise we can get into a game of just re-languaging everything, rather than looking closely at experience.
touch and hear
Can you find “touching” or just sensation, can you find hearing or only “sound”?

A reminder about the LU process:

To see this, first you must be 100% committed to seeing it. It can’t be a nice idea, an intellectual curiosity. You have got to pursue this as if you have no other choice.

Second, you must be open with a willingness to set aside your current beliefs about how things are and engage in rigorous inquiry – no one can give this to you.

Your beliefs might be rushing in saying, “yeah, but....”, “OK, but what about...?”, “I was taught that....”, “my other teacher, video or the book I read said.....”All this must be pushed aside and sometimes quite aggressively.

Third, you must engage in actively – paying attention to the words the guide is using. Be sure you are clear on the context within which the words are being used. Review what is being asked, sometimes if you review what was asked or said, you may realise that what you thought you read versus what was actually asked/said are different things.

Fourth (ties in with the second) – practical application. You can’t just sit and ponder, you must apply the ideas to your life, see them in action. Do the work.

Fifth, be 100% honest with your guide and with yourself. You can’t “cheat” your way through this. Wherever you are with your understanding or lack of understanding, your guide can’t help if you are withholding. Withholding is unfair to both the guide and yourself.

Please sit with the questions and allow the answers to arise from within - from looking & not just answering from thought.

Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)


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