Wanting to know the truth of our reality

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skb
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Re: Wanting to know the truth of our reality

Postby skb » Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:14 pm

I wouldn't say it's lousy that it's outside at all. It's actually kinda nice. It feels in a way like everything sort of comes from out there. It's like it's all part of my experience and the thoughts arise the same way a sound might. They just sort of come to me.

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Re: Wanting to know the truth of our reality

Postby Bananafish » Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:18 pm

Sorry, that was my typo; I meant to say "what makes you say" lol


It's like it's all part of my experience and the thoughts arise the same way a sound might. They just sort of come to me.


What is that "me" to whom they come?
I'm available for Skype or Zoom face to face conversation. Drop me a line and we could arrange
the date.
Email: swinganova@hotmail.co.jp
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Re: Wanting to know the truth of our reality

Postby skb » Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:42 pm

Sorry for the slow response. I haven't been staying at my actual home so my routine has been all thrown off for the last few weeks. But I want to keep with this consistently so it's my top priority at the moment to do this work.

There isn't much thinking in the it being outside of me, if I don't think that's where the pointing went to. If I start thinking the something seems toe say that it should point back at my face head body etc.
What is that "me" to whom they come?
I guess they're not really coming to me per say they're just arising. There's something there that recognizes the thoughts or there is maybe simply recognizing of them.

You asked me in our talk about why I want to do this work and it is largely curiosity but I also realized thinking a bit deeper it feels like I'm at a real crossroad in my life where I'm not sure what to do with my life. So there is a feeling that figuring this out and getting through the veil of the self might make it easier to figure out what to do next. I'm not sure if this is totally false and unfounded though haha. Maybe it'll make those choices harder but regardless I still want to figure it all out and make decisions from a place of truth.

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Re: Wanting to know the truth of our reality

Postby Bananafish » Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:48 pm

Hi Scott. :)


getting through the veil of the self might make it easier to figure out what to do next.


Well, that may or may not happen. I'm pretty much sure that it will bring about a drastic change.


I guess they're not really coming to me per say they're just arising. There's something there that recognizes the thoughts or there is maybe simply recognizing of them.


What if you don't guess? Guessing or supposing won't work in this context of inquiry.
Would you like to actually observe and describe what was found?



Warm wishes,

Kento
I'm available for Skype or Zoom face to face conversation. Drop me a line and we could arrange
the date.
Email: swinganova@hotmail.co.jp
Modern Koan Project: https://www.facebook.com/groups/628553401153461

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Re: Wanting to know the truth of our reality

Postby skb » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:45 pm

Would you like to actually observe and describe what was found?

So I was observing last night and it looked like that in each and every moment there is just "being" prior to everything else. Just being seems to be prior to the thoughts, perceptions, etc and the "selfing" that occurs. So if one can "be" without selfing / thinking then one exists without the self since the being happened before the selfing occurs.


I haven't had a big "shift" or anything like that yet but this was really interesting to look at.

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Re: Wanting to know the truth of our reality

Postby Bananafish » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:35 pm

Hi. :)


Just being seems to be prior to the thoughts, perceptions, etc and the "selfing" that occurs.


Is "just being" something existing apart from thoughts, perceptions, etc and the "selfing"?
I'm available for Skype or Zoom face to face conversation. Drop me a line and we could arrange
the date.
Email: swinganova@hotmail.co.jp
Modern Koan Project: https://www.facebook.com/groups/628553401153461

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Re: Wanting to know the truth of our reality

Postby skb » Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:27 pm

Hey :)


Is "just being" something existing apart from thoughts, perceptions, etc and the "selfing"?


Yes and no. It seems "just being" is always present where as thoughts and perceptions seem to arise and fade away so there is a separation while "just being" is happening and thinking etc isn't, and then at the same time while thinking is present the thinking is part of just being and it's kind of all perceived as one and the same.

I think that perceiving it all as one and the same is where that selfing comes into play a bit and this entity just being turns into "the self".

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Re: Wanting to know the truth of our reality

Postby Bananafish » Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:59 pm

Hi! Well, that sounds like a nice theory, but what if you don't
theorize it?

This time, please be clear whether your answer is yes or no, and describe how
you referred to the direct perception of what is here and now. Please describe the process.
I'm available for Skype or Zoom face to face conversation. Drop me a line and we could arrange
the date.
Email: swinganova@hotmail.co.jp
Modern Koan Project: https://www.facebook.com/groups/628553401153461

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Re: Wanting to know the truth of our reality

Postby skb » Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:44 am

Is "just being" something existing apart from thoughts, perceptions, etc and the "selfing"?

Yes they are something very different. Being is clear, it’s open, relaxed, peaceful, empty and available. Thoughts etc bubble up into being until there’s focusing on them but they’re two very different things.

While being thoughts begin to swirl then focusing occurs and there’s either more thoughts that come or the focus shifts to something else and more thoughts come after that. Sometimes it slips back into just being but If the thoughts involve the past or the future a version / vision of of Scott emerges or a relationship to these thoughts emerge. This then pulls more thoughts or beliefs or judgements about the thoughts. Feelings of things should be a certain way or should be different than they are in some way which causes closing off separation and tightness and pulls one out of just being. Then there is getting wrapped up in this cyclical habitual process. It's interesting getting to notice this process happening.

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Re: Wanting to know the truth of our reality

Postby Bananafish » Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:43 am

Ok Scott, my question was,


Is "just being" something existing apart from thoughts, perceptions, etc and the "selfing"?


so, I didn't ask whether they are different.
Would you say that "just being" is always relaxed and peaceful?
I'm available for Skype or Zoom face to face conversation. Drop me a line and we could arrange
the date.
Email: swinganova@hotmail.co.jp
Modern Koan Project: https://www.facebook.com/groups/628553401153461

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Re: Wanting to know the truth of our reality

Postby skb » Mon Nov 02, 2020 7:02 pm

Ok Scott, my question was,


Is "just being" something existing apart from thoughts, perceptions, etc and the "selfing"?

Ah whoops, I misinterpreted your question. I'm still not totally clear on what you're asking but I'll give it a shot.


It doesn't feel like something existing apart from everything else — It doesn't seem like just being is a thing at all — it's like the absence of other conscious things or any processing (thoughts perceptions etc). Sensations still seem to be there but they just exist there and there's no thinking or judging or desire to change them.

Like when you're in a flow state doing work or playing sports and you're not consciously thinking abut what you're doing but it's just happening but you're still doing stuff, acting in the world, talking, etc. As soon as the thoughts start you get disrupted and pulled out of that state and attention is focused on thinking perceiving judging etc. So the thoughts are things and they happen in the same place as Being but Being is like a no-thing so I don't know how to say if they're "something existing apart" from each other.


Would you say that "just being" is always relaxed and peaceful?


I don't like to say anything is "always" something. However for me Just Being is existence unclouded by thoughts or beliefs etc. Whenever thoughts and beliefs leave from my own experience I seem to be left in a peaceful state, it's not blissful or anything like that, it's just easy, clear, quiet, and calm. So there's a thought afterwards labeling it as peaceful since it seems to line up.

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Re: Wanting to know the truth of our reality

Postby Bananafish » Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:43 pm

Hi Scott. :) Let's have a look at some parts of what you wrote:


As soon as the thoughts start you get disrupted and pulled out of that state and attention is focused on thinking perceiving judging etc.


Who is the one that is disrupted?
What makes you use the expression "pulled out?"

Is there any special place from which you are pulled out from?

Are "thinking perceiving judging etc." something not preferable?
If so, what tells you that?


Whenever thoughts and beliefs leave from my own experience I seem to be left in a peaceful state, it's not blissful or anything like that, it's just easy, clear, quiet, and calm.


What happens when thoughts and beliefs come back?
Could it be that thoughts and beliefs will disappear for good?


Warm wishes,

Kento
I'm available for Skype or Zoom face to face conversation. Drop me a line and we could arrange
the date.
Email: swinganova@hotmail.co.jp
Modern Koan Project: https://www.facebook.com/groups/628553401153461

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Re: Wanting to know the truth of our reality

Postby skb » Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:14 am

Hey Kento, sounds good :) Lets take a look.

Who is the one that is disrupted?

I'm don't know. It's like the state of open unfocused and wide attention is disrupted. But there is still a feeling of ownership of that state or a tie in to me somehow even though I can't find any evidence of me. There's just some belief in there I'm having a hard time recognizing the untruth of.


What makes you use the expression "pulled out?"

It's more like pulled in thinking closer, you're open and then the thoughts bubble up and you get pulled into those some times or some times you can watch them fade away as well


Is there any special place from which you are pulled out from?

No I wouldn't say it's a special place, its just blank in a way. There's an even spreading attention and then there's a pulling into focus on something specific. Which starts the thought cycle feedback loops.


Are "thinking perceiving judging etc." something not preferable?
If so, what tells you that?

It doesn't seem like they are inherently not preferable, they're an unstoppable part of existing. It's in the way we can attach to these thoughts, judgement, perceptions or tie them into that sense of self that can make them non preferable.


What happens when thoughts and beliefs come back?

There is a focusing, this can bring up emotions or judgments about the thought which cycles into more thoughts. Sometimes there is recognition that it's just a thought and the thought drifts away on it's own. Sometimes it taps into some belief that you might not even be aware of and it makes you feel either good, bad, or neutral depending on the view on that thought.


Could it be that thoughts and beliefs will disappear for good?

Anything is possible but it really doesn't seem like it, it seems like they'll always be there in some form or another.



Thank you so much for your time and help :)

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Re: Wanting to know the truth of our reality

Postby Bananafish » Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:22 am

Hi Scott. :)


But there is still a feeling of ownership of that state or a tie in to me somehow even though I can't find any evidence of me. There's just some belief in there I'm having a hard time recognizing the untruth of.


What is this "feeling"? How is it perceived?


the thoughts bubble up and you get pulled into those some times


However many times I read this, it simply sounds like a metaphor; but what is it that's actually
happening? What is really happening when "you get pulled into thoughts"?


pulling into focus on something specific


Ok, when you are cooking, the focus is on cutting vegetables or grilling meat;
what is the problem about that?


tie them into that sense of self that can make them non preferable.


Again, this seems to be told as a metaphor, but what is "tying thoughts into the sense of self,"
really? What is happening at the very moment that is happening?


There is a focusing, this can bring up emotions or judgments about the thought which cycles into more thoughts.


Ok, please describe more precisely how "thoughts bring up emotions" but telling what the
link between thoughts and emotions is.


Anything is possible


Well, I'm afraid this is not true. You can't defy gravity while being on earth.
In the same way, there are things that are impossible however "enlightened" (if such a thing exist)
you are. Well, I'm half joking in this part ... :)


it seems like they'll always be there in some form or another.


Would you restate what the problems about thoughts are for you, not something thought to be
a problem in general?



Warm wishes,

Kento
I'm available for Skype or Zoom face to face conversation. Drop me a line and we could arrange
the date.
Email: swinganova@hotmail.co.jp
Modern Koan Project: https://www.facebook.com/groups/628553401153461

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skb
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Re: Wanting to know the truth of our reality

Postby skb » Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:38 am

But there is still a feeling of ownership of that state or a tie in to me somehow even though I can't find any evidence of me. There's just some belief in there I'm having a hard time recognizing the untruth of.

What is this "feeling"? How is it perceived?

This is something I'm having a really hard time with, I can't actually locate any feeling. There doesn't seem to be anything there just open blankness. When looking there's no words, no emotions, no thoughts.


the thoughts bubble up and you get pulled into those some times

However many times I read this, it simply sounds like a metaphor; but what is it that's actually
happening? What is really happening when "you get pulled into thoughts"?

The pulling in is definitely a metaphor. There is knowing of the thought occurring. It becomes known that it's happening. Then attention follows to the next thought some times and sometimes it doesn't. Unless I'm trying to see the thoughts and sit and quietly look they all just run one into the next over and over all day long without much awareness they're happening.


when you are cooking, the focus is on cutting vegetables or grilling meat; what is the problem about that?


There's no problem there. It's when you're cutting meat and you're thinking thoughts about something else and you're projecting into the past or future in some way seeing an imaginary self. I find if I'm focused on a task and in flow there's no real thinking and it's like I'm not actually doing anything but it's all being done for me or through me.

Ok, please describe more precisely how "thoughts bring up emotions" but telling what the
link between thoughts and emotions is.

So in order to try and figure thing out I'm intentionally thinking negative to see what happens.This causes a bunch of other reactions. My body hunches over and gets smaller, the breath almost stops, there a feeling of the gut tightening. So what it looks like is that thoughts cause sensations in the body which then associate with negative sensations that gets thought as an emotion.

It's like the thing happens before there is knowing of it and can only see if you're looking. There's this link using the sense data of the body which seems to make more negative thoughts come up which then makes more sensations in the body. It all seems to cycle. I know if I'm feel frustrated in a situation there's a lot of thinking thoughts about the situation that keeps making more and more thoughts about it what seems like more sensations and a lot of times these validate ones previous held opinion on the subject.


Would you restate what the problems about thoughts are for you, not something thought to be
a problem in general?

I don't know if thoughts is where I get held up most. It does look like I don't do the thinking there is just knowing of the thinking happening.

One thing that I have had a hard time seeing through is the thought about this subject object relationship. This idea of I'm over here looking and something else is over there. I think that's part what keeps me held into the belief of a separate self. Which I know we were working on in our chat and I'm still having a hard time with it.

Another thing I think that's sticking for me is the physical body I've inhabited. The feeling of it's where I'm located.

Thanks so much for all your help sorry for the essay, ;)

Happy Friday!


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