No idea

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Vivien
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Re: No idea

Postby Vivien » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:55 am

Hi Tom,

Lets look at thoughts, that is where we find the story, right?

Generally there seem to be two kind of thoughts:
1. thoughts which content point to something which is directly experienced, now in the moment.
2. thoughts which content point to nothing in DE (direct experience), rather to other thoughts content.

#1 would be ‘There is a table’, or ‘my hands are wet’, or ‘the flower is blooming’ - since something is SEEN at the moment, the thought points to something, even though table / hand / flower is just a label for something SEEN / EXPERIENCED.

#2 would be "I had dinner last night”, or “she said something nasty to me”, or “I want to be free”, or “I am going to do some shopping tomorrow”, etc.

Now please, gently observe your thoughts, noticing how do their thing, chatting about this and about that, labelling, interpreting, giving meaning to events and things, analysing how things could have done differently, and so on.
While noticing the dance of thoughts, how they go around in loops trying to find verification for their own self-appointed truth…. check for yourself if the above given statement is true.

Are there two ways of thoughts or do you find more? If yes, please do give an example.
Does one set of thoughts point to something in DE and does the other one really points to another thought only?


Please spend a whole day looking at this. Check this again and again throughout your day.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

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Re: No idea

Postby TomnotTom » Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:50 am

Hi Vivien,
Are there two ways of thoughts or do you find more? If yes, please do give an example.

Does one set of thoughts point to something in Direct Experience

and does the other one really points to another thought only?
I have spent the day exploring this question.

I couldn't find any thoughts that fall outside of these 2 types you mention.

There are a lot of variations within those 2 categories and there is no distinct line between them. As soon as a thought appears about something in direct experience, it is immediately becoming a thought about another thought because it is taking a snapshot of a moment and making stories about it.

For example I could have an angry thought because my computer crashes. The thought is seemingly about what just happened but it is really a collection of thoughts and feelings that have nothing to do with the reality of the screen changing. It is an old story latching onto something in direct experience and leading away from it towards deeper thought.

In a way all thoughts are in direct experience as i am experiencing them. The content of them always seems to point to something real which is why they are so compelling.

Thought seemingly can't coexist with the direct experience of life where nothing is fixed so it latches onto something and turns it into a mental form which can then lead into more thought forms.

One type of thought which kind of spans both categories is the sort of inner dialogue or monologue that makes comments on things that could be directly experienced or not. It makes judgements and comments on things that are seen or heard - either from direct experience or from memory. This is often the way thought takes attention from direct experience into some kind of commentary or story which usually leads to some story about the past or future.

It's often a conversation with somebody who isn't here. Perhaps a conversation I expect to have in the future or a replay of a past conversation, or a dialogue with an imaginary person about something happening right now.

Some thoughts are a direct replay of something, like a song or a vivid memory which seems quite close to a direct experience.

Sometimes there is a whole scenario which is quite convincing. These more vivid thoughts often come with feelings. Emotions like fear or guilt are sensations in the body that also come with stories. Often it involves an idea of me as the central character in a situation. The person that things are happening to. These type of thoughts, although very convincing, seem a long way from direct experience. There is often a moment of "waking up" where attention comes back to the present and it feels like I have been in a deep sleep.

Tom

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Vivien
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Re: No idea

Postby Vivien » Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:48 am

Hi Tom,
For example I could have an angry thought because my computer crashes. The thought is seemingly about what just happened but it is really a collection of thoughts and feelings that have nothing to do with the reality of the screen changing. It is an old story latching onto something in direct experience and leading away from it towards deeper thought.
Yes, so this is just a thought about more thoughts. It’s just a story woven about anger and how bad it is for me, and how angry and frustrated I am. Just notice that this has nothing to do with direct experience.

In experience there is just a computer that doesn’t work.
Everything else is just an added narrative, just interpretation with an added flavour to it: It’s all happening TO me!
In a way all thoughts are in direct experience as i am experiencing them. The content of them always seems to point to something real which is why they are so compelling.
But that’s the whole point… that the contents of thoughts just rarely pointing to something that which is real.
“How angry I am” – story is not about something real. It’s just a story told on behalf of a self. Just a play of thoughts. Not an actual experience. Can you see this?
One type of thought which kind of spans both categories is the sort of inner dialogue or monologue that makes comments on things that could be directly experienced or not. It makes judgements and comments on things that are seen or heard - either from direct experience or from memory
.
Let’s say the table in front of you is noticed. A thought about DE would be like: “seeing the table” or “It’s brown”, or “the laptop is on the table”.

Everything else would be just a story woven from it with all sorts of judgements, interpretations, like: “I find this table so boring”, “I should buy a new laptop”, “I hate this laptop, it never works when it should”.
Just notice that these thoughts are not pointing to the immediate experience, these are just thoughts about thoughts. Can you see this?
This is often the way thought takes attention from direct experience into some kind of commentary or story which usually leads to some story about the past or future.
Yes. And past and future are just more thought, more story. It has nothing to do with the here-and-now experience.
It's often a conversation with somebody who isn't here. Perhaps a conversation I expect to have in the future or a replay of a past conversation, or a dialogue with an imaginary person about something happening right now.
So what is experienced in this case is an imagination.
But there is no actual experience of having a dialog with someone, right?

Is it clear that when we say right now, then we mean it literally? Not just generally what happens nowadays in my life, but what happens in this very moment?

Please give me a deception of what is happening in this very moment, without adding anything extra to it (without adding a story).
Some thoughts are a direct replay of something, like a song or a vivid memory which seems quite close to a direct experience.
But is a memory a direct experience? Or a memory is just a thought happening now?
If there is a memory of a song here now, is that song actually experienced, or it’s just imagined?
The person that things are happening to. These type of thoughts, although very convincing, seem a long way from direct experience. There is often a moment of "waking up" where attention comes back to the present and it feels like I have been in a deep sleep.
yes, nice observation. We can literally dream with open eyes :) we even call it as daydreaming.

Vivien
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Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

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Re: No idea

Postby TomnotTom » Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:19 am

Hi Vivien
"How angry I am” – story is not about something real. It’s just a story told on behalf of a self. Just a play of thoughts. Not an actual experience. Can you see this?
Yes. The computer crash is nothing, just a slight change on the display of the computer screen but the anger is a complex story. It involves ideas of what should and shouldn't happen and a me who is a victim to the computer which is an evil tormentor.

In reality nothing is happening - the screen changed slightly on the computer. The story masquerades as reality but it is far from it.
Just notice that these thoughts are not pointing to the immediate experience, these are just thoughts about thoughts. Can you see this?
Yes they are built upon layers of stories. it could be a judgement based on a story about a self and what should and shouldn't happen to it. It connects to other thoughts about similar experiences in the past and other judgements and creates an ever more elaborate story which is further and further from what is real.

So what is experienced in this case is an imagination.
But there is no actual experience of having a dialog with someone, right?
Right. It's 100% imagined.
Is it clear that when we say right now, then we mean it literally? Not just generally what happens nowadays in my life, but what happens in this very moment?
Yes, i inderstand. There is a big difference between this moment and "these days". The general idea of now is exactly that - an idea. Everything except the direct experience here and now is just thought.
Please give me a deception of what is happening in this very moment, without adding anything extra to it (without adding a story).
I see the screen and letters and words in the centre of my vision. To the sides of the screen there are colours. The image fades and blurs out the further from the centre of vision it is. There is also a blurry ring around vision which thought calls "my glasses on my face".

I see hands holding the phone as the thumbs type these words.

There is movement as breathing happens. Various sensations in the body come and go. Attention is now focusing on the body and feeling the sensation of my bottom and legs on the seat.

Typing is happening. The sound of the thumbs tapping on the screen. The sounds of the room. There are different sounds here, coming from different directions.

There is new information wherever attention goes. When attention is on the screen there is mostly just screen and words but also a vague sense of shape, colour, sound and feeling in the perifery.

But is a memory a direct experience? Or a memory is just a thought happening now?
If there is a memory of a song here now, is that song actually experienced, or it’s just imagined?
No there is no song here now, no sound although it can be very convincing at times.

yes, nice observation. We can literally dream with open eyes :) we even call it as daydreaming.
Yes. The more I look, the more similarity i see between dreaming and thinking.

Tom

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Re: No idea

Postby Vivien » Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:41 am

Hi Tom,

You did a nice investigation.
Here are two exercises for you along the same lines.

1. Take a piece of paper and divide it in two parts.
- In one part you mark each thought which content points to the intake of senses,
- on the other part you make a mark for all thoughts which don't point to anything in DE, like into the so called future/daydreams/plans or past/memory.

Take half an hour time for it or longer and have a look how the percentage is.

2. Play around and notice thoughts during the day, and label them according to which category they belong to.
Share what you find.

Vivien
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Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

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Re: No idea

Postby TomnotTom » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:11 am

Hi Vivien,
1. Take a piece of paper and divide it in two parts.
- In one part you mark each thought which content points to the intake of senses,
- on the other part you make a mark for all thoughts which don't point to anything in DE, like into the so called future/daydreams/plans or past/memory.

Take half an hour time for it or longer and have a look how the percentage is.

2. Play around and notice thoughts during the day, and label them according to which category they belong to.
Share what you find.
When I did the first exercise I counted about 90% of the thoughts as not pointing to direct experience.

I don't know if I found any solid conclusions here but I made some observations:

This may just be more thinking but it seems that all thoughts about direct experience lead away from it and towards more thinking. Although a thought may appear to be a direct response to experience, it excludes reality and as the thought expands so the connection to direct experience diminishes.

Almost all thought seems to have some degree of judgement attached to it. I went outside and had the thought "it's cold". It was a statement of the senses of the body feeling cold but there was also a subtle layer of judgement in it - that it was unpleasant and I wanted it to be less cold.

The more I look, the less thoughts I find pointing to direct experience. I am actually doubting that there is such a thing.
For example, the thought "the laptop is on the table" is connected to the visual sense but it is an abstraction of what is seen. The labels don't come close to the direct experience.

It's more of a sliding scale where the thoughts take on increasing complexity the further they get from what is in direct experience. Once attention is focused on thought it becomes very much like a dream. The deeper the daydream, the more likely there is to be emotions attached, sometimes very strongly.

There is another type of thinking which is "directed" thinking where the thought has a particular goal - to solve a puzzle or make a decision. It is not based in direct experience but it tends to be less immersive than "story" thinking.

Tom

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Re: No idea

Postby Vivien » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:54 am

Hi Tom,
This may just be more thinking but it seems that all thoughts about direct experience lead away from it and towards more thinking.
Yes, but this is just a conditioned habit.
Almost all thought seems to have some degree of judgement attached to it. I went outside and had the thought "it's cold". It was a statement of the senses of the body feeling cold but there was also a subtle layer of judgement in it - that it was unpleasant and I wanted it to be less cold.
Nice observation.
The more I look, the less thoughts I find pointing to direct experience. I am actually doubting that there is such a thing.
For example, the thought "the laptop is on the table" is connected to the visual sense but it is an abstraction of what is seen. The labels don't come close to the direct experience.
In strictly speaking, there are only a handful of words to points to DE, like the word ‘sensation’, ‘sound’, ‘color’, taste’, ‘smell’, ‘thought’, ‘experience’. Probably pretty much this is it.
It's more of a sliding scale where the thoughts take on increasing complexity the further they get from what is in direct experience. Once attention is focused on thought it becomes very much like a dream. The deeper the daydream, the more likely there is to be emotions attached, sometimes very strongly.
Yes :) Thoughts add. Likes and dislikes are added, judgments are added, opinions are added, interpretation is added, and so on.

Thoughts claim everything and connect it to an I, a self. This is something easily observed. Chocolate becomes ' I love chocolate and want some now", a car becomes "This is my car", and so on.

The thing can be any object (like cat, house, table, food), but it can also be a concept (love, freedom, job, emotion, etc).

Notice how many thoughts are in a day that make a thing into MY thing, or that thing is being related to ME or are about ME, or I have an opinion or judgement about that thing.

Let me know what you find.
There is another type of thinking which is "directed" thinking where the thought has a particular goal - to solve a puzzle or make a decision. It is not based in direct experience but it tends to be less immersive than "story" thinking.
If you look very closely, is there really such thing as ‘directed thinking’? Or only thoughts ABOUT directed thinking?

What is it that would direct thoughts? Where is the director, the thinker? What is the proof?

By what mechanism are thoughts directed? Is there such mechanism? Or it’s just an unexamined thought assumption?


Always check what only happens in thought and what is really direct experience.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: No idea

Postby TomnotTom » Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:52 am

Hi Vivien,
Notice how many thoughts are in a day that make a thing into MY thing, or that thing is being related to ME or are about ME, or I have an opinion or judgement about that thing.

Let me know what you find.
At first this felt quite difficult. A lot thoughts tend to be unclear and arrive with feelings that come and go without really being fully aware of them.

It seemed difficult to distinguish if they were about me or something else.

As I looked more though I began to see that almost every thought is in some way about me.

There are visions of the future in which I am having conversations or I am doing things. Often these come with feelings of excitement or fear.

There are memories of conversations or doing things. Often these come with feelings of happiness or shame or regret.

There are commentaries or judgements on things which are often ideas about how my perspective is better and more truthful than certain other people. Often this comes with a feeling of frustration and wanting to change people or situations.

These judgements can also be directed at my self and all the things that I should/shouldn't be doing.

So far I can't say I have found a thought that isn't about me in some way.

Even if I think about some abstract concept like the political situation in America, there is always a thread that connects to me. It may be some fear about how it might affect me in some way. Or it may be a judgement and a sense of frustration of wanting to change the system - that "I" know better.

If a thought had no connection to a 'me' then it would not be interesting. The connection to me adds an element of emotion to the stories where everything is either good or bad in relation to what I want.
There is another type of thinking which is "directed" thinking where the thought has a particular goal - to solve a puzzle or make a decision. It is not based in direct experience but it tends to be less immersive than "story" thinking.

If you look very closely, is there really such thing as ‘directed thinking’? Or only thoughts ABOUT directed thinking?
By directed, I mean that the thought has a clear goal such as "what is 6x7" or "what shall I eat for breakfast" as opposed to a lot of thinking which seems mainly focused on making stories and expanding them. For example "Oh, why is there no milk, it's not fair, my breakfast is ruined! Why did I forget to buy milk I'm so stupid..." etc. etc.
What is it that would direct thoughts? Where is the director, the thinker? What is the proof?
There is no proof of a thinker that I can find.
By what mechanism are thoughts directed? Is there such mechanism? Or it’s just an unexamined thought assumption
?

They are not directed, but some thoughts seem to be responding to sensations in the body such as "I am hungry, I want to eat" The thought takes credit for keeping the body alive by telling it to eat. This is actually the thought that plays the role of director. It is just a thought though, it is not controlling or directing anything.

Tom

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Re: No idea

Postby Vivien » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:38 am

Hi Tom,
As I looked more though I began to see that almost every thought is in some way about me.
Exactly! Nice observation. Almost all thoughts, in one way or another, is referring back to ME.
There are visions of the future in which I am having conversations or I am doing things. Often these come with feelings of excitement or fear.
Is this a vision, or is this an imagination? Like an internal movie?
When this happens, are the contents of these thoughts are real or not?
There are memories of conversations or doing things. Often these come with feelings of happiness or shame or regret.
And aren’t these memories also just thoughts, playing themselves out, like an internal movie?
When these thoughts appear, are the contents of these thoughts experienced/real or not?
There are commentaries or judgements on things which are often ideas about how my perspective is better and more truthful than certain other people. Often this comes with a feeling of frustration and wanting to change people or situations.
And are these commentaries and judgments are pointing to the present experience, or is this just labels and interpretations as add-ons?
S o far I can't say I have found a thought that isn't about me in some way.
Even if I think about some abstract concept like the political situation in America, there is always a thread that connects to me. It may be some fear about how it might affect me in some way. Or it may be a judgement and a sense of frustration of wanting to change the system - that "I" know better.
Very nice observation. Everything seems to be about me :)
If a thought had no connection to a 'me' then it would not be interesting.
Yes! Spot on.
The connection to me adds an element of emotion to the stories where everything is either good or bad in relation to what I want.
Very good.
T: There is another type of thinking which is "directed" thinking where the thought has a particular goal - to solve a puzzle or make a decision. It is not based in direct experience but it tends to be less immersive than "story" thinking.
V: If you look very closely, is there really such thing as ‘directed thinking’? Or only thoughts ABOUT directed thinking?
T: By directed, I mean that the thought has a clear goal such as "what is 6x7" or "what shall I eat for breakfast" as opposed to a lot of thinking which seems mainly focused on making stories and expanding them. For example "Oh, why is there no milk, it's not fair, my breakfast is ruined! Why did I forget to buy milk I'm so stupid..." etc. etc.
Here you gave a different explanation. Which is just more thoughts. But have you looked with the questions?
Please look at the question thoroughly.

If you look very closely, is there really such thing as ‘directed thinking’? Or only thoughts ABOUT directed thinking?
They are not directed, but some thoughts seem to be responding to sensations in the body such as "I am hungry, I want to eat" The thought takes credit for keeping the body alive by telling it to eat.
Are you sure?? Do you really need thoughts in order to eat when there is hunger?

Newborns have no thoughts whatsoever, and yet they eat quite often!

Look very closely. No thought is needed to experience the sensations called hunger.
No thought is needed to go to the fridge and pick something.
No thought is needed to open the mouth and put the food in.
No thought is needed to chew the food.
No thought is needed to swallow it.
No thought is needed to digest it.
And not thought is needed to eliminate it.

Go through each step, and check if they are actually true.

Of course, thoughts come along and comment on anything, like an unbidden narrative, but are thoughts making eating happen? What proof is there for this?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: No idea

Postby TomnotTom » Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:37 pm

Is this a vision, or is this an imagination? Like an internal movie?
When this happens, are the contents of these thoughts are real or not?
No this vision is a fantasy, just happening in imagination. There is nothing real about their content.

And aren’t these memories also just thoughts, playing themselves out, like an internal movie?

When these thoughts appear, are the contents of these thoughts experienced/real or not?
Yes, the memories are also just thoughts. It is another imagined fantasy. It has nothing to do with what is happening right now in direct experience.

There are commentaries or judgements on things which are often ideas about how my perspective is better and more truthful than certain other people. Often this comes with a feeling of frustration and wanting to change people or situations.
And are these commentaries and judgments are pointing to the present experience, or is this just labels and interpretations as add-ons?
No, the commentaries and judgements are always about an idea. There is nothing to judge or in direct experience because it just is, unequivocally. There needs to be a creation in the mind of a concept upon which a commentary or judgement can be built. It’s all an abstraction.

T: There is another type of thinking which is "directed" thinking where the thought has a particular goal - to solve a puzzle or make a decision. It is not based in direct experience but it tends to be less immersive than "story" thinking.
V: If you look very closely, is there really such thing as ‘directed thinking’? Or only thoughts ABOUT directed thinking?
T: By directed, I mean that the thought has a clear goal such as "what is 6x7" or "what shall I eat for breakfast" as opposed to a lot of thinking which seems mainly focused on making stories and expanding them. For example "Oh, why is there no milk, it's not fair, my breakfast is ruined! Why did I forget to buy milk I'm so stupid..." etc. etc.
Here you gave a different explanation. Which is just more thoughts. But have you looked with the questions?
I see that it is a thought that creates the label “directed thinking”. I don’t see how this is different from labelling a thought as a memory or a projection of the future though. I can see that It’s all made up and imaginary.

The content of the thought is around finding a solution or making a decision. It is still a thought and not real. I can see that any decision that happens in thought doesn’t affect reality. If I have the thought that I decide to have fruit for breakfast it is still just an artificial layer imposed on the reality of the body going to the kitchen and eating fruit. The thought “I will eat fruit” is not causing the action of eating the fruit although it can seem that way.

I see that no one or no thing is directing the thought but the content of the thought is about finding a solution, just like a memory is a thought about something that supposedly happened in the past.

Is this an accurate description or am I still missing something?

If you look very closely, is there really such thing as ‘directed thinking’? Or only thoughts ABOUT directed thinking?
They are not directed, but some thoughts seem to be responding to sensations in the body such as "I am hungry, I want to eat" The thought takes credit for keeping the body alive by telling it to eat.

Are you sure?? Do you really need thoughts in order to eat when there is hunger?
No, the thoughts are not necessary to eat. Thoughts have nothing to do with the process of eating.

Of course, thoughts come along and comment on anything, like an unbidden narrative, but are thoughts making eating happen? What proof is there for this?
This is clear. No thought is needed to tell the body it is hungry. The body knows and will feed itself just like thought isn’t needed to tell the body to breathe or sleep.

There are thoughts that say they are controlling all of this. They create an illusion of decisions and choices which can be made right or wrong. They create an idea of a chooser and a doer. In reality everything just happens because it happens - not because of a decision.

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Re: No idea

Postby Vivien » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:46 am

Hi Tom,
I see that it is a thought that creates the label “directed thinking”. I don’t see how this is different from labelling a thought as a memory or a projection of the future though. I can see that It’s all made up and imaginary.
Yes. Only thoughts create categories. All labels, all division only ever happen in thought.
The content of the thought is around finding a solution or making a decision. It is still a thought and not real. I can see that any decision that happens in thought doesn’t affect reality. If I have the thought that I decide to have fruit for breakfast it is still just an artificial layer imposed on the reality of the body going to the kitchen and eating fruit. The thought “I will eat fruit” is not causing the action of eating the fruit although it can seem that way.

I see that no one or no thing is directing the thought but the content of the thought is about finding a solution, just like a memory is a thought about something that supposedly happened in the past.

Is this an accurate description or am I still missing something?
Yes. You did a nice investigation.

Yes, there is no chooser, no doer, things just happen. There might be a string of thoughts trying to do the explaining bit, but well, they happen too.

Please for a whole day just check choice and decision again and again, keep a keen eye on thoughts, watch them like a cat trying to catch a mouse.

When does a thought like "I decide for this, because...." or " I choose this because....." turn up? Before, during or after the action?

Vivien
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Re: No idea

Postby TomnotTom » Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:28 am

Hi Vivien,
When does a thought like "I decide for this, because...." or " I choose this because....." turn up? Before, during or after the action?
What I have been noticing is how choice seems to be an illusion. Where else could choice be happening but in thought?

In direct experience there is just a kind of flow of "happening" where things just follow a natural order. The thing that is currently in experience gets attended to. A lot of things that I previously assumed were based on a decision I can see now as completely automatic. Conversations, the act of cooking and feeding myself, going to the bathroom. Much of this actually happens while thought is preoccupied with something else.

There are moments though, where it is seemingly difficult to make a decision. At these times thought seems to be playing a role. Let me investigate this here:

A common experience of this indecision is procrastination.

For example this weekend I had a goal to write and record a podcast episode to release during the week.
I had several moments during the weekend where I had the opportunity to do this but each time I sat down to write I found myself doing something else. There was the thought "I should be writing" but suddenly surfing the internet was more compelling.

I can see this as more evidence that thought is not the chooser of action.

There are also moments when I jump between the task of writing and the entertaining distractions. Thought sees this as a battle of willpower. There is a feeling of tension in the body and perhaps an emotion like frustration. It is as if different decisions are being made from different sources.

I can see that all this is just happening without being chosen. But at the same time it seems that thought is influencing the struggle. If I had no thoughts about what i should be doing then surely this wavering between different actions would not be happening?

I think I need to investigate this further.

Tom

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Re: No idea

Postby Vivien » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:14 am

Hi Tom,
There are also moments when I jump between the task of writing and the entertaining distractions. Thought sees this as a battle of willpower. There is a feeling of tension in the body and perhaps an emotion like frustration. It is as if different decisions are being made from different sources
Is this really the case? That different decisions are being made from different sources? How do you know this? Is this something observable, or only a thought claims so?

Isn’t this just another story provided by a thought? As a repetitive pattern of jumping between tasks and going for distractions?
can see that all this is just happening without being chosen. But at the same time it seems that thought is influencing the struggle. If I had no thoughts about what i should be doing then surely this wavering between different actions would not be happening?
Isn’t this a logical reasoning? What if this explanation is nothing but an assumption offered by another thought?
The question is: Do I really know? Can it be proven right now?

How can a content of a thought influencing anything? How would they do it? By what mechanism? How could it be proven, right now, by direct experience?

What can a thought do? Can a thought do anything?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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TomnotTom
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Re: No idea

Postby TomnotTom » Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:51 am

Hi Vivien
Is this really the case? That different decisions are being made from different sources? How do you know this? Is this something observable, or only a thought claims so?

Isn’t this just another story provided by a thought? As a repetitive pattern of jumping between tasks and going for distractions?
Yes, I can see that this is another story but there is still some confusion about whether thought has any influence on action.
How can a content of a thought influencing anything? How would they do it? By what mechanism? How could it be proven, right now, by direct experience?

What can a thought do? Can a thought do anything?
I can’t provide details of a mechanism but I can point to some examples where, as far as I can see there is a thought influencing a physical response.

I have a thought about an interview I am doing in a few days and there is a feeling in the body of nervousness.

I can experience, here and now that the heart is beating faster.

Is this experience in the body caused by the thought of the interview? It looks that way

Perhaps it is the reverse? I am experiencing feelings in the body and the thought appears "I am nervous because.."

It doesn’t appear that way. The thought about the interview comes first and then the heart rate changes. I can repeat this experiment and every time the same result is observed.

It could be that both are happening simultaneously, the heart rate and the thought are 2 indicators of the same process, neither one influencing the other because they are the same thing.

Either way there are sensations in the body that appear to be connected to a something that doesn't exist here, now. A future event that exists only in thought.

I can also point to physical reactions to memories. For many years I have experienced certain unpredictable physical responses in the body which come with an uncomfortable memory. This tends to be a clenching of the muscles in my face and jaw. Sometimes the whole body tenses and vocalisations like a moan or a curse.

When I was younger these kind of spasms could be quite violent and I would actually hit something or even myself.

I have always seen this as a reaction to a memory, a thought. Now when I examine this phenomenon I still see the body responding to a thought of some past event. It's like the memory is stored in the body and when that memory is triggered there is a shockwave of energy through the body. This is real and observable in direct experience.

I am not sure where to go with this. I can’t dismiss this apparent connection between thought and physical action.

Tom

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Vivien
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Re: No idea

Postby Vivien » Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:49 am

Hi Tom,
I have a thought about an interview I am doing in a few days and there is a feeling in the body of nervousness.
I can experience, here and now that the heart is beating faster.
Is this experience in the body caused by the thought of the interview? It looks that way
If we go along with everyday perception, then sure, it SEEMS that the fast heart beat is cause by the thought.
But when we are investigating the nature of reality, how things are, we cannot rely on everyday perceptions which is thought based.
Either way there are sensations in the body that appear to be connected to a something that doesn't exist here, now. A future event that exists only in thought.
But isn’t this connection is logical?
If you don’t think about a connection, is there an actual experience of a connection?

I have always seen this as a reaction to a memory, a thought. Now when I examine this phenomenon I still see the body responding to a thought of some past event.
Just notice that your conclusion is utterly thought based.
It's like the memory is stored in the body and when that memory is triggered there is a shockwave of energy through the body. This is real and observable in direct experience.
Are you sure about this? Are you sure that memory being stored in the body is a direct experience?'

How does memory being stored in the body is experienced?
Can memory being stored in the body be seen?
Can it be heard?
Can it be smelled or tasted?
Can you touch memory being stored in the body?
Or you can only ever IMAGINE and THINK ABOUT it?

What is direct experience? Please tell me in your own words?

And what is the direct experience of memory being stored in the body?


Just notice that thoughts provide all sorts of explanation. They love to explain. They love to give meaning to everything. They love to establish a cause and effect relationship. The babble about all sorts of things.

And we are happy to accept these explanations at face value, since ‘knowing’ how things are gives a (false) sense of security for ME.
I am not sure where to go with this. I can’t dismiss this apparent connection between thought and physical action.
Look very closely… this connection is always ever assumed by thoughts. If you look you can discover that there is no connection between thoughts and sensation, you can only every conclude this by thinking.

What would happen to this SEEMING connection if all your thoughts would suddenly turn to a foreign language or the tweeting of birds?


The assumption of cause and effect is an attempt to describe this mysterious happening. It’s a useful concept sometimes. But it’s a concept. It’s an attempt to put this into a box and label it- I know how things are.

That knowing of how things are is a dead lock on seeing magic and mystery.

So rather than trying to figure it out, see that all trying to figure it out is grasping for certainty. And the process here is about unlearning all that you know about how things are and remain open in unknown. The security is not in knowing how things are, but in being.

Assuming cause and effect is an attempt to explain what cannot be explain to create a false security of “I know how things are”.

It is a closely knit story, isn't it?
Language, body, habits, tendencies, conditions, cause and effect.
If you look at it closely again you will find that all is product of thought, all told and happening in thoughts.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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