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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:19 pm
by Luchana
Hi Tannis,
Well I had a reply, went to review, walked away for a minute, and poof! It disappeared! (I feel there is something I'm me trying to sabotage this effort........ho many imaginary people are in here anyway?)
It is happen from time to time with the site.. as an advise - write somewhere in other document and when you are ready just copy paste it here. You will have the text in case that something happen with the site (or maybe the connection) while posting.
Determination (+ effort) is needed Nothing is on the way.
I recognize more and more frequently that I have been "thinking", so am here, experiencing at least for a brief period after noticing.
wonderful, keep noticing like this.

There is a seed.
And where is this seed exactly?

Can you point it. I mean literally - the way you point the screen of the computer?

How is that "seed" shows up in experience?

As an image, as a sound or as an imagination?


There is some contradiction between these two statements:
I only know there was a seed when I look back at the thoughts, and see the connection.
They are imaginary, so, the connection imaginary. I cannot experience it, except in another thought......there is no connection.
So look again, which feels more true?

There is a connection between thoughts.

There is no connection between thoughts.

Thought, daydream , memory, imagining of past present , future........and, even decisions, even decisions which have prompted action......all of these have the same quality, of not existing!

You did a very good looking.

Some resistance especially to decisions which are followed by action.......even though, they are not dissimilar to decisions folowed by inaction........or, any thought for that matter. Eek!
Thank you for sharing this with me. We will come back later on decisions, now can you please share a little bit more about this resistance?

It may carry a message for you. Sit with it for a while and ask:
"Hey, thanks for being here.
What do you want to protect me from?

I can observe the brain, at any time.
Look again.
Can you observe the brain right now?
I mean literally?
Or it is pure imagination?

I actually have no sensation behind my eyes........just an idea,(yes, I know, no ideas allowed!), that's where awareness resides. (I think , this is because the senses of seeing and hearing are so strong........I know, no thinking!)
Good. We will come back here later.

Of course, the dragon isn't there, isn't real........and even the thought isn't real.....there is resistance to "this thought appeared just as others do in the mind, therefore is also unreal. I didn't know I was going to create a thought about creating an imaginary dragon. Therefore, it would seem to follow, ok, it follows that, I am not deciding anything in regards to the thoughts in my mind, therefore, not deciding anything, therefore,..... Not in control.....oooooh!little foggy with that!

I didn't create this thought!omg! Who /what did then!!? (Yes, I know you are not going to answer.....)

Really, who or what make these thoughts?
Is there a thinker of thoughts?
Can a thinker be found in experience?
Look. Be like a hawk.

(A small request - don't builk a reply. Please, reply individually to each question, it's important for every question is a pointer for you where to look. Stay with each and every question as many time as you can and than write).


Much love,
Luchana

Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:24 am
by Raquelflight
Hi Luchana,
Determination (+ effort) is needed
Ok!!

And where is this seed exactly?
(Of a thought)....I feel a little trapped here. The seed is imagined, so doesn't exist that I can experience it. It is nowhere to be found.
I could write a university paper on the connection between thoughts. My mind wants to say a lot of things.....in the end , I cannot experience the seed.
Can you point it. I mean literally - the way you point the screen of the computer?
I literally cannot point to it. I don't experience it. (Now I am understanding thinking as opposed to what you mean by experiencing. That is clearer now. )

How is that "seed" shows up in experience?
It doesn't show up at all in experience. It shows up in imagination, as past thoughts are looked at.

As an image, as a sound or as an imagination?
It's imagination only. Even if there's an image, the image is imagined.


So look again, which feels more true?

There is a connection between thoughts.

There is no connection between thoughts.

There is no connection between thoughts that I can experience. There is resistance here, as my mind wants to argue as to how the ideas are connected.......without thinking, the thoughts are not connected.


It may carry a message for you. Sit with it for a while and ask:
"Hey, thanks for being here.
What do you want to protect me from?


(Resistance)answer: disappearing



Look again.
Can you observe the brain right now?
Sorry, my answer yesterday was actually "I cannot observe the brain at any time"....I didn't preview carefully.
Or is it pure imagination?
It's pure imagination.The ideas about the brain are not experienced. They are ideas I have developed, found.....imagine. I have no experience of the brain.
Really who or what made these thoughts?
I do not know.......I will look again...mmmmm, how can they come from nothing?

There is no thinker. To be found.

Can a thinker be found in experience?
There is no thinker, no thinker in experience, or to be experienced. There is only experience in experience. There is only experience.


Look. Be like a hawk.
I am looking. The experience is all I find.

Thank you Luchana,

Tannis?

Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:17 am
by Luchana
Hi Tannis,
(Of a thought)....I feel a little trapped here. The seed is imagined, so doesn't exist that I can experience it. It is nowhere to be found.
I could write a university paper on the connection between thoughts. My mind wants to say a lot of things.....in the end , I cannot experience the seed.

:-) yep, the seed is not experienced beside as a thought. The seed just doesn't exist in reality.
It's imagination only. Even if there's an image, the image is imagined.
You did a good looking.

I literally cannot point to it. I don't experience it. (Now I am understanding thinking as opposed to what you mean by experiencing. That is clearer now. )
I'm glad that this pointer helped. Yes, actually is quite simple. Direct experience means all that we can experience with our 5 senses + thought. (but not what thought brings. e.g the content of it)
There is no connection between thoughts that I can experience. There is resistance here, as my mind wants to argue as to how the ideas are connected.......without thinking, the thoughts are not connected.
Resistance means that some beliefe is shaken. This is exactly what we are doing here - checking if those believes are true in reality. So give up thinking, this riddle could not be resolve with thinking. Actually thinking is on the way.
(Resistance)answer: disappearing
You can simply thank this message. It does its job very well.
Working perfectly as a security system. It is protecting something from being found out. It is a sensation.
Look at this sensation of "disappearing" at just let it be here. Feel where in the body is being felt, bring it closer, it's ok to let it be. Then look what is behind it.

What is really behind it?

How can something which was never existed to disappear?

Tannis?
for the sake of communication we can use names and that's ok :-)

Much love,
Luchana

Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:15 am
by Raquelflight
Hello Luchana,

Last night for a few hours, before I had time to sit alone, I was filled with dread. There were a lot of thoughts about this investigation...........wondering if people reach a point, and then decide to stop, and continue with the story. (Of their lives). Some part of the thoughts really wanted to warn about the danger of this course of questioning, as though it will end up in a lonely, empty place.

Disappearing= nothing=no one= empty=lonely and creepy

Today, I don't find the feeling of dread as strongly.

The resistance wants to keep me safe from disappearing.

Look at this sensation of "disappearing" at just let it be here. Feel where in the body is being felt, bring it closer, it's ok to let it be. Then look what is behind it.
I feel it is like a log across my chest. It is something that tries to keep things from changing......to stay in control.......

I know, everything is changing....to be able to be "safe" from change is not possible, a huge illusion anyway. Change =
death is part of the fear. Not mine, but people in my life. I was never in control.....Another imaginary nothing.

Belief: if I can keep things the same, I can keep people safe.

Is this true? No

The bodies will all die? Yes
What is really behind it?
I can't find anything.

How can something which was never existed to disappear?
It can't.........
(what is struggling to protect ......this nothing? What is imagining it? Wants to keep imagining it? Why?)

I think I might have asked the same things already...

I am still looking..

Thank you!

Tannis

Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:00 am
by Luchana
Hi Tannis,
Last night for a few hours, before I had time to sit alone, I was filled with dread. There were a lot of thoughts about this investigation...........wondering if people reach a point, and then decide to stop, and continue with the story. (Of their lives). Some part of the thoughts really wanted to warn about the danger of this course of questioning, as though it will end up in a lonely, empty place.

Disappearing= nothing=no one= empty=lonely and creepy

Today, I don't find the feeling of dread as strongly.

The resistance wants to keep me safe from disappearing.

Thank you for sharing this me.
I'm glad that the feeling has diminished. All sensations are constantly changing (you may have notice this already).

This dread is a perfect mehanism. As I wrote in my prevous message - it does its job very well.
But when you look behind it - you found nothing there. Nothing that needs protection. And you also notice that these are only thoughts - good job.

"lonely and creepy" is just another thought that shows up in experience.


"Disappearing= nothing=no one= empty=lonely and creepy"
This is a vicious circle.

Sensation=thought= scary thought=more sensation=more scary thoughts

Can you see this?


Actually my own fear was that I will lose my mind and go crazy. But what I lost was only one precious belief.
So relax now. All is good.

I feel it is like a log across my chest. It is something that tries to keep things from changing......to stay in control.......

I know, everything is changing....to be able to be "safe" from change is not possible, a huge illusion anyway. Change =
death is part of the fear. Not mine, but people in my life. I was never in control.....Another imaginary nothing.

Belief: if I can keep things the same, I can keep people safe.

Is this true? No

Mm, what about the possibility that you didn't do anything to keep things and safe people even now, it is just seemingly look like you do things?


And why should things be different from now? Just because it is seen through the illusion.

(what is struggling to protect ......this nothing? What is imagining it? Wants to keep imagining it? Why?)
This we are going to find out.
Again - trust the process.

Shall we continue dive deeper?



Much lovе,
Luchana

Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:27 am
by Raquelflight
Hi Luchana,
All sensations are constantly changing (you may have notice this already).

Yes, even in reference to one thing, they are not always the same ......so interesting! I suppose this has always been, but not as noticed before. The dread and mistrust I felt Sunday evening felt....real, and warranted. So if there are good reasons for these feelings and or thoughts, they should be here now. I know these might come back, but at the moment, are not present.

(I have had this dread come upon me in suddenly, in the middle of doing some mundane activity- not meditating, doing any inquiry, or even thinking about it. I have suddenly been overcome by a strong feeling that, "I made all of this.....just so I wouldn't feel lonely. But really, there is no one else." It felt very Creepy, and sad.)


Sensation=thought= scary thought=more sensation=more scary thoughts

Can you see this?

Yes! And, that's a great way to be aware of it. I had never thought of the cycle that it feeds on......now, I can watch for it.

Thank you.
I am watching emotions, thoughts more, and find this, just allowing and feeling to be a great tool. Instead of feeling, I should or shouldn't think /feel this way, I should be a better person....not angry, afraid, impatient, irritated, resentful........allowing takes the positive or negative labelling away. Though there is not as much difficulty allowing "positive " thoughts and emotions.

Being with the fear, dread and not finding a reason, behind the reason, made my shoulder muscles let go, and relax a bit. I realized I have them tensed all the time, as though in preparation for some kind of "hit", or "negative " event. As though, making my muscles into a type of armour would be protection from that- but constantly in a state of effort to prepare. (For what? I don't know.....just in case!)

I feel that letting everything unfold, as I have no control in any case, might be wonderful, as I'm sure I don't know how much energy this constant effort to be and keep people "safe" takes. "Oh, I don't have a choice, I can just flow along and enjoy, or experience whatever comes..........(yes, more imagination...! )


Actually my own fear was that I will lose my mind and go crazy. But what I lost was only one precious belief.
So relax now. All is good.
Well, I guess there are a few fears......acting crazy, or having my actions labelled as crazy, is another.....being suddenly different, (from what I was before), or from others....unable to communicate, participate with people......
Hearing that knowledge of "no-self" is a step, and could be very subtle, was reassuring, (much as I would like to have magical changes in an instant.....or so
I believe.)


Mm, what about the possibility that you didn't do anything to keep things and safe people even now, it is just seemingly look like you do things?
It's a ridiculous idea. Even in my mind now, it's not logical, but still a reason I felt I had to maintain fearfulness.

And why should things be different from now? Just because it is seen through the illusion.
It is a fear based idea, that is there, inspite of seeing the nonsense to it. I don't have the superpower to keep people safe, by always being afraid or tense. I don't possess this power, so cannot give it up. The fear of losing the fear, because it's guarding things, is insane.
I do have some feeling I need to be fearful........(it's not here at the moment, but I don't feel that just noticing it, makes it ,go away completely all at once.) I don't know that seeing something as an illusion automatically makes the illusion disappear.



Shall we continue dive deeper?
You betcha! I'm still here, so I will go get my snorkel!

Thank you!

tannis

Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:24 am
by Luchana
Hi Tannis,
I am watching emotions, thoughts more, and find this, just allowing and feeling to be a great tool. Instead of feeling, I should or shouldn't think /feel this way, I should be a better person....not angry, afraid, impatient, irritated, resentful........allowing takes the positive or negative labelling away. Though there is not as much difficulty allowing "positive " thoughts and emotions.
Yes, it is a good tool, but the question is NOT to investigate allowing or not allowing "positive " or "negative" thoughts and emotions. The question is to SEE experientialy if there is realy a "you", a separate entity which seemigly allows.
I feel that letting everything unfold, as I have no control in any case, might be wonderful, as I'm sure I don't know how much energy this constant effort to be and keep people "safe" takes. "Oh, I don't have a choice, I can just flow along and enjoy, or experience whatever comes..........(yes, more imagination...! )
But walking arround and repeating "Oh, I don't have a choice. I can just flow along and enjoy..." doesn't change anything. We are going to investigate control and choice later, I can ensure you - we will not skip those precious believes. Since knowing intellectually (I have no choice and control) is not enough.It must be experiential . And then the knowing becomes factual. And this is freedom.
“It's a ridiculous idea. Even in my mind now, it's not logical, but still a reason I felt I had to maintain fearfulness.”

And where is exactly this thing you call "mind?"

Does "mind" has a shape or any form? A colour maybe? Taste? Texture?

How mind as such is experienced?


I don't know that seeing something as an illusion automatically makes the illusion disappear"
Is there any expectation hiding here?

That the illusion will stop appearing? But why?
You betcha! I'm still here, so I will go get my snorkel!
Let's dive than :-)

We will look at thoughts and how thinking happens a little bit more, since seeing thoughts for what they are is essential.

Now, right now in this very moment stop and look for the thought which is arising. It could be any kind of thought. It is here for a while and than - gone. Right?


Be very vigilant, like a cat which is waiting for a mouse and tell me:

What did you do exactly for these thoughts to arise?


“I think.”

Is this true?


Is thinking a doing or it is a happening?


Look at this during the whole day. 50-80 times, even more. Don’t just look once or twice. Look with curiosity, like a child who doesn't know anything about positive and negative thoughts. The child doesn't know anything at all.

Much love,
Luchana

Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:21 am
by Raquelflight
Hi Luchana,
Yes, it is a good tool, but the question is NOT to investigate allowing or not allowing "positive " or "negative" thoughts and emotions. The question is to SEE experientialy if there is realy a "you", a separate entity which seemigly allows.
Ok. I was thinking this was a "step" towards seeing.

See experientially if there is a you, if there really is a you, a separate entity which seemingly allows...........somehow this sentence is standing out to me just now, even though I've read it a couple times today. I just want to repeat it here for myself, in the notes of the conversation.( is there experientially a you, a separate entity which seemingly allows= In actuality, Does not allow, or cannot allow......it just SEEMS to, but , doesn't really )



Yes, I seemingly allow. How to know I am not allowing at all? How does one see this experientially.......?

And where is exactly this thing you call "mind?"

It is nowhere . I cannot find it. I cannot see, touch, taste, smell, hear it. You said use 5 senses or thinking but not content of thinking.... I cannot think the mind into existence.

Does "mind" has a shape or any form? A colour maybe? Taste? Texture?
It has no shape, form, size, colour, pattern, texture.........there are no words with which to describe it.its quite incredible, that I cannot say anything to tell you about it.

How mind as such is experienced?
There is no experiencing the mind then. ....it is imaginary?

Is there any expectation hiding here?

Re: seeing something as an illusion doesn't mean it automatically disappears. Yes, there is some expectation that seeing through a illusion equals illusion disappearing.
For example: you hear a noise outside, which sounds like a burglar trying to break in. Finding out what was thought to be an intruder next to the window outside is actually a skunk, immediately eliminates the thought of the intruder that was initially in the mind.

That the illusion will stop appearing? But why?
The illusion is no longer believed, or believed in. It has been exposed. It has nothing to evoke any emotional response, after being seen as non-existent.


Now, right now in this very moment stop and look for the thought which is arising. It could be any kind of thought. It is here for a while and than - gone. Right?
Exactly. Yes.

What did you do exactly for these thoughts to arise?
I did nothing. I ......noticed.

“I think.”

Q
Is this true?

No.....I just see the thoughts, as they arrive. Because many of them have "I", me, my, ideas , and I, me , my, mine, words in the thoughts, I have been feeling that - "I" think - but, I don't think. I .......observe.

Is thinking a doing or it is a happening?
It is a happening. When I look, or wait for a thought, there is a little space. I don't know what is coming. I can't hang on to it for as long as I want.....I can't stop it. I don't know where a series of thoughts is going. They just happen, on their own? I watch, but the story is about "me", "I", so......? Then, I believe the thoughts that are "happening", not being thought, are being thought by ....me.

Thank you,

Tannis

Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:53 am
by Luchana
Hi Tannis,
Yes, I seemingly allow. How to know I am not allowing at all? How does one see this experientially.......?
I cannot tell you how, I can only point. You have to see it for yourself. That's why we investigate our own immediate experience, just before thoughts interfere.
Looking is very much the key.
It is nowhere . I cannot find it. I cannot see, touch, taste, smell, hear it. You said use 5 senses or thinking but not content of thinking.... I cannot think the mind into existence.
I said 5 senses+thought (but not what is a thought about, e.g. the content of it)

If "mind" does not exist outside of a thought does "mind" exist in reality?

It has no shape, form, size, colour, pattern, texture.........there are no words with which to describe it.its quite incredible, that I cannot say anything to tell you about it.
you did a good looking.
There is no experiencing the mind then. ....it is imaginary?
But look, just look and there will be no need for the question mark.
Re: seeing something as an illusion doesn't mean it automatically disappears. Yes, there is some expectation that seeing through a illusion equals illusion disappearing.
It's good that you see this expectation. Yes, it is not disappear. It just is seen for what it's always been - an illusion.
The illusion is no longer believed, or believed in. It has been exposed. It has nothing to evoke any emotional response, after being seen as non-existent.
Emotional responses, triggers still will be happening, And it needs a lot of further looking. LITERALLY A LOT.
No.....I just see the thoughts, as they arrive. Because many of them have "I", me, my, ideas , and I, me , my, mine, words in the thoughts, I have been feeling that - "I" think - but, I don't think. I .......observe.
It is a happening. When I look, or wait for a thought, there is a little space. I don't know what is coming. I can't hang on to it for as long as I want.....I can't stop it. I don't know where a series of thoughts is going. They just happen, on their own? I watch, but the story is about "me", "I", so......? Then, I believe the thoughts that are "happening", not being thought, are being thought by ....me.
You did a good observations, Tannis.

Now let’s do some more investigation in thought and especially thoughts about “me, “I”, self.

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened)

Take you time and let me know what you find.

Much love,
Luchana

Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:06 am
by Raquelflight
Hi Luchana,


That's why we investigate our own immediate experience, just before thoughts interfere.
Looking is very much the key.
That's wonderful, thank you! I wrote,"investigate your own immediate experience, just before thoughts interfere," on a card. I was lucky to be alone for most of the day. I set a timer for 10 minutes, then followed these instructions, every 10 minutes, for hours.........I will continue looking.

If "mind" does not exist outside of a thought does "mind" exist in reality?
No, mind doesn't exist in reality.


But look, just look and there will be no need for the question mark.

There is no experiencing the mind then, it is imaginary.
Now let’s do some more investigation in thought and especially thoughts about “me, “I”, self.

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened)

Take you time and let me know what you find.
Ok. I did the exercise. I got 25 for self, and 12 for other. I felt suspicious of the results, so tried again. 58 for self, 6 for other. I am still a bit suspicious that the 6 are maybe somehow related to self........ Basically, everything revolves around, "ME". Very interesting........and , all imaginings! The experiment was interesting........thoughts pretty boring!

So it is established that thoughts are not real.........thoughts are all about ,"ME"........so without the thoughts......=no me. Or what is left of this "me", without thoughts? (I'm wondering this , I know you won't answer.)

I have to ask myself this now.

Thank you!

Tannis

Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:39 am
by Luchana
Hi Tannis,
That's wonderful, thank you! I wrote,"investigate your own immediate experience, just before thoughts interfere," on a card. I was lucky to be alone for most of the day. I set a timer for 10 minutes, then followed these instructions, every 10 minutes, for hours.........I will continue looking.
And you did a wonderful job :-)
No, mind doesn't exist in reality.
There is no experiencing the mind then, it is imaginary.

you did a good looking.
Ok. I did the exercise. I got 25 for self, and 12 for other. I felt suspicious of the results, so tried again. 58 for self, 6 for other. I am still a bit suspicious that the 6 are maybe somehow related to self
Welldone! If you look closer at this 6 - is it possible that they are aslo related to the self, just in a hidden way?
Basically, everything revolves around, "ME". Very interesting........and , all imaginings! The experiment was interesting........thoughts pretty boring!”

So it is established that thoughts are not real........thoughts are all about ,"ME"........so without the thoughts......=no me. Or what is left of this "me", without thoughts? (I'm wondering this , I know you won't answer.)

You did a very good looking!
So it is established that thoughts are not real
Are they ever real?

.thoughts are all about ,"ME"........so without the thoughts......=no me. Or what is left of this "me", without thoughts? (I'm wondering this , I know you won't answer.)
let’s find out more than.


Where is this "me" in reality?

Can "me" be found at all?


Look for this "me".

Is it possible that "me" is also a thought?

Play with this. Like a chlid.

Much love,
Luchana

Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:00 am
by Raquelflight
Hi Luchana,
If you look closer at this 6 - is it possible that they are aslo related to the self, just in a hidden way?
Yes, that's why I was suspicious. I couldn't remember all the thoughts to really inspect them, but , I put a mark for "other", when the thought came," that's such a beautiful shadow,". Later, I thought, so the shadow shape is interesting ....to me!

I've been trying to think of some thought that is not related to ,"me" in some way. I cannot. If I think about someone,something further away, then there is often some opinion involved. If I think about my parents, there is some feeling attached, or, some actions I have to take care of for them..........but this is part of a "to do " list for ME.
Are they ever real?
The answer that comes is no, never. However, I need to say that, while this is the answer I get, I have resistance in that, I have to make a list of errands my father asks me to take care of . I have to remember, and do some math to pay the bills......".
I want to say that I need .05 % of my mind to take care of necessary things requiring attention....."

Now, I'm caught in a circle, or trap, because.......if thoughts aren't real, and they are never real..............I can't fit these 2 together.

Where is this "me" in reality?
I can never find this "me" in this immediate experience.

Can "me" be found at all?
I cannot find it, as I try to more and more investigate the immediate experience, as you said. WHERE ELSE would I look? I am not in the past, or future.......they are ideas, so I tried to look in these ideas for "me" . This is looking in a place that doesn't exist, so how can a real "me" be there? It cannot.

Is it possible that "me" is also a thought?
Me must be a thought. I had always thought of me, as a real being, but, I want to say this me is a bundle of thoughts, opinions, and memories. A bundle of thoughts , but I only see one t a time, so..........I don't know where his bundle would exist, and even if it did...."..it wouldn't be real. This thought of me pales in comparison to immediate experience......... I cannot find anything in thoughts of me this real and strong as the experience of now. I always thought that this awareness was a part of the me story too ............me was, all the stories from the life, and presence mixed. It wasn't a great mix though.....the immediate experience of existence that is available, for the most part being totally ignored while the thoughts carried things away.

Yes, very possible, me is a thought.

Thank you!

Tannis

Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:37 pm
by Luchana
Hi Tannis,
Yes, that's why I was suspicious. I couldn't remember all the thoughts to really inspect them, but , I put a mark for "other", when the thought came," that's such a beautiful shadow,". Later, I thought, so the shadow shape is interesting ....to me!

I've been trying to think of some thought that is not related to ,"me" in some way. I cannot. If I think about someone,something further away, then there is often some opinion involved. If I think about my parents, there is some feeling attached, or, some actions I have to take care of for them..........but this is part of a "to do " list for ME.
You did another great investigation!
The answer that comes is no, never. However, I need to say that, while this is the answer I get, I have resistance in that, I have to make a list of errands my father asks me to take care of . I have to remember, and do some math to pay the bills......".
I want to say that I need .05 % of my mind to take care of necessary things requiring attention....."
I understand. There is a resistance, because there is a believe that I. me, Tannis is doing thеsе particular actions.

But is this so in reality?

Let's investigate actions in the moment when and HOW exactly they are happening with a simplе exercise.

Take two glases with different beverages (milk and water, or juise and coke, or coffe and tea). It could be also something else..
Put these glasses in front of you. Close your eyes for a minuте, than look at glasses and just choose one.
As you do this notice whether a 'self' does it. Also notice if there are many or any moments in the whole procedure of taking glasses, puting something in them (etc) when 'you' control the process?

Watch like a hawk.

How the decision is made which glass to choose?

Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically?

Do ‘you’ choose?

Can a chooser be located?

If yes, where exactly?


Also investigate this not only during the exercise, but in the midst of the everyday life - for example while making a list of errands or some math to pay the bills etc - examine. Each time when there is a feeling that I, Tannis do this or this - look.

Is this true?

Now, I'm caught in a circle, or trap, because.......if thoughts aren't real, and they are never real..............I can't fit these 2 together.
Who or what exactly can be caught in a trap?
Look for this one.
I can never find this "me" in this immediate experience.

Good looking :-) Just one question
It cannot be found because it is not there or because it doesn't exist at all?

I cannot find it, as I try to more and more investigate the immediate experience, as you said. WHERE ELSE would I look? I am not in the past, or future.......they are ideas, so I tried to look in these ideas for "me" . This is looking in a place that doesn't exist, so how can a real "me" be there? It cannot.
Exactly. It's good that you can see both past and future as just ideas only.
Me must be a thought. I had always thought of me, as a real being, but, I want to say this me is a bundle of thoughts, opinions, and memories. A bundle of thoughts , but I only see one t a time, so..........I don't know where his bundle would exist, and even if it did...."..it wouldn't be real. This thought of me pales in comparison to immediate experience......... I cannot find anything in thoughts of me this real and strong as the experience of now. I always thought that this awareness was a part of the me story too ............me was, all the stories from the life, and presence mixed. It wasn't a great mix though.....the immediate experience of existence that is available, for the most part being totally ignored while the thoughts carried things away.
You did a good loking.

What does thoughts belong TO than?
Is there something solid, autonomous, an entity with thoughts, memories, opinions?


Yes, very possible, me is a thought.
This last is not coming from looking.

possible=thinking

Can you see this?


Much love,
Luchana

Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:56 pm
by Luchana
Thank you!
You are welcome! :-)

L.

Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 7:31 am
by Raquelflight
Hello Luchana,
But is this so in reality?
((that I, Tannis is doing these actions?)

I can't find anything, when I watch for (me) doing ......anything. (Of course, I don't find another "entity doing them either)

Let's investigate actions in the moment when and HOW exactly they are happening with a simplе exercise.

Take two glases with different beverages (milk and water, or juise and coke, or coffe and tea). It could be also something else..
Put these glasses in front of you. Close your eyes for a minuте, than look at glasses and just choose one.
As you do this notice whether a 'self' does it.
Somehow the choice is made. There is not a self doing it, but rather, watching it.
Also notice if there are many or any moments in the whole procedure of taking glasses, puting something in them (etc) when 'you' control the process?
There were many choices made......glasses, drinks....getting 2 that I like equally, so I don't know the answer before I even begin the exercise.
I didn't control the process at any point. I was more of an observer, of how the cups felt, looked.....continuing in the same way once I took a drink. There wasn't a sudden change in sensation after a "choice had been made, and a drink taken.

How the decision is made which glass to choose?
The cup choice is automatic......even if I try to add a lot of thoughts to it.......within the additions of thoughts, are many Miny decisions that are made........not by "me". I can watch the whole process happening.
Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically?
The is a moment of result from a choice being made, but I can't find the moment of choice. Nothing big happens to signify it. It's separate from a watching of it, and goes on automatically
Do ‘you’ choose?
I don't choose.choosing happens. I notice.

Can a chooser be located?
No, there is no chooser
If yes, where exactly?
That would be weird, especially since "I" am not choosing, to find another "person" doing it!
There isn't one anywhere.


Also investigate this not only during the exercise, but in the midst of the everyday life - for example while making a list of errands or some math to pay the bills etc - examine. Each time when there is a feeling that I, Tannis do this or this - look.

Is this true?

No, even when it seems a decision has been made, most things re done automatically, without paying attention to the doing. Thoughts receive attention easily, as so many movement don't require anything.
Driving, which requires many turns and manipulations.......just, happens.

Time for coffee, breakfast, drive to the store, my parents. I can't find myself in there anywhere contributing, or, even needing to contribute.

Who or what exactly can be caught in a trap?
Look for this one.
There is nothing to be caught . It's the mind trying to make something.....which doesn't exist.
Good looking :-) Just one question
It cannot be found because it is not there or because it doesn't exist at all?
The me cannot be found because it doesn't exist at all. If it existed, it would be there . It couldn't exist and not be found , because it had taken a trip for a week .....if it were anywhere, existing, it would be here , now.

What does thoughts belong TO than?
No one. They just appear. Then they are gone. I see them, but they don't belong to me.......I can't keep them for even a few minutes!

Is there something solid, autonomous, an entity with thoughts, memories, opinions?
Thought don't belong to "me" and ther is nothing found that owns them.

This last is not coming from looking.

Possible=Thinking

Can you see this
(referring to "me as a possible thought"

Yes, without thinking interfering, me is a thought.

Without thinking, answers are clear.

Thank you again Luchana!

Tannis