Seems I could use a hand here

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Raquelflight
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Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Raquelflight » Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:22 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that an attachment to the idea of a real self is the trouble maker, source of suffering, and yet belief in this fiction is strong, and has invisible threads woven throughout the mind.

What are you looking for at LU?
I found the book liberation unleashed on Saturday....5 days ago. I was blown away, excited! I read it got the second, gatecrashers, read that, tried to find everything I could on youtube.......(almost done there).....got the app... I thought I should work through the exercises before contacting this sight, but suddenly, this morning, find myself typing this to you. I am writing everyday, but it occurs to me that a little direction, assistance, might lessen the floundering.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
It seems that guides are able to point out areas of misunderstandings, travels down false paths, times when one is fooled or taken away by thoughts.
Sometimes I feel as though my brain has brought up disturbing, emotional events from the past to evoke strong emotions, and carry me off into the stories presented.The emotional element is a helpful ruse to get (me) involved. I have a feeling that this is a defence mechanism to keep the self in existence. For an imaginary creation, it seems very clever, and I'm afraid it's smarter than I am. At this point, it is difficult for me to be aware that a thought is just a thought and let it go for more that 30 seconds. I would like some help keeping on track. I want someone who will be brutal with me.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I was raised in the Luthern church, and especially during confirmation classes, began to question the teachings. At i religion class in High school, a teacher held a class on Zen buddhism, and I was blown away for the first time. It seemed so obviously to be the" truth". I read more on my own, and gave the talks on buddhism for the teacher, when he presented them again.
I meditated on my own, and years later made it to Hwa ge sa temple in Korea twice for practice. (At that time......ah, a couple years, ok, decades ago!) It seemed there was not such a prevalence of meditation centres, no internet.....maybe people were starting to use emails, so it took some time and travel to find this opportunity to practice. Second time for 7 weeks. Over the years, I have attended Satsung /lectures with a variety of Buddhist groups in whatever area I live in. I have acquired a large library of books, and online attendance at meditation courses - Eckhart Tolle, Craig hamilton, Mooji, weekend retreat with Sadhguru.......A recent Vispassana 10 day retreat has been postponed due to covid.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Luchana
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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Luchana » Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:22 am

Hi Raquelflight,

and welcome to Liberation Unleashed.

(do you want me to call you like this or you prefer another name?)

My name is Luchana and I am happy to assist you exploring no self. We can have a talk here and see how it goes if you want?


This is going to be your inqiury. I’m not going to give you any new ideas or beliefes, I’m not going to teach you anything. I will simply point, but it is you, who have to look. The main goal of this investigation is to experience the truth, the reality of what is for yourself.

I am kindly advise you to leave aside all the books, videos and other's opinions reliing to the subject. Also don’t read even different threads here in the forum, rather spent all your time in looking what is here present at experience.
If you have any daily practice - like meditation it’s ok to continue with it.

From your intro I see that you have done a good job so far. Now you can relax and just leave all these past experiences and states aside. Seeing no self is not a one time event, nor a state. It's rather much more simple than we can ever imagine.

Can we agree on this?


Few practical things before we start.

How to use the quotes finctions - viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Post once a day, it really helps to keep focus. If for some reason is not possible to reply - please let me know.

I will asking you questions (they will be in Italic so you will easily know) and will giving exercises. All you have to do is to look in your direct experience and write what feels true for you.
We look into the Direct Experience without assumptions and beliefs about what is. It is that simple.
What is Direct/Actual Experience? Everything we can experience with the 5 senses+thought (noticing the thought, but not what content of the thought is ) Something like "Oh, there is a thought here".

So, when we say Direct Experience we mean - what is it that we see, what is it that we hear, what is it that we taste, what is it that we can smell, what is it that we can touch + thought, but not what thought is about.


For example - If I ask you what is the colour of your socks today you can think and remember what socks you've pick this morning, or you can just look and see what colour are they really.


Also there are no wrong or right answers, so don’t worry - it is all ok :-)

Just reply with honesty from the heart.

So, are you really ready to begin?


Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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Raquelflight
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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Raquelflight » Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:41 pm

Hello Luchana!

I am so excited and happy to hear from you! That was so fast!

I just finished watching a video of a conversation between Jon and Luchana. Even if that is not you, it seems like a little coincidence. I've never heard this name before; it's very beautiful.
(do you want me to call you like this or you prefer another name?)
My first name is Tannis. I'm fine with using that.
Can we agree on this?
Yes, I agree to that!
So, are you really ready to begin?
Sooooo ready!!!

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Luchana
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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Luchana » Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:09 am

Hi Tannis,
I just finished watching a video of a conversation between Jon and Luchana. Even if that is not you, it seems like a little coincidence. I've never heard this name before; it's very beautiful.
Ha, one of those small miracles :-) Yes, that's me. And thank you for the kind words.
Sooooo ready!!!
That's lovely! Let's start than by diving deeply in your expectations.


Tell me what is it that you are really looking for?

How your life will change if you find that?

How will you change?

What will be different?


Please, reply each question individually and try to be fully honest, not because of someone else, but because of you.


Take your time.

Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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Raquelflight
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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Raquelflight » Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:09 am

Hi Luchana,

Oh, you are so sweet in the video! That's kind of wild....and wonderful!

I think that I might answer all 4 questions in a rather simple way: freedom from fear . I wonder if that's what's at the centre.

To expand a bit though...
Tell me what is it that you are really looking for?
I want freedom from fear, and to be fully present in this life.
How your life will change if you find that?
Relief from a constant efforting, (not usually a verb, but seems more appropriate as a verb here), to protect myself, and prepare for whatever might happen.......(Yes, how can one really prepare anyways? Yet there seems to be some kind of "on alert" attitude to ensure protection.) Living without the need to be constantly careful of making mistakes, making the Wrong move. Yet another wrong one.

When I was in kindergarten, I remember asking my mother what was meant by the word "daydreaming" on my report card. (oh man, daydreaming since 4/5 years old!) I have been practicing this technique of daydreaming for decades...Im afraid I'm an expert, together with fears and regrets , thats what has been going through my mind for these years, (lifetimes?)

Even in the midst of a "positive" time, experience, I stop and say to myself "Just BE! Suck in this wonderful experience. Be here and enjoy it!" And yet,I still seem be somewhere else.
How will you change?
I will be relaxed, unworried, OPEN to what is here, open to experimenting......just ,open?
Able to let things go, physical , mental, emotional. Allow, accept.I willl be content.
I will be authentic, aware of and connected to my physical body. I will be inspired to do without fear. I will be patient and connected to people, life...........
What will be different?
I will take nothing for granted, and be grateful and present with what or who is. My children will be affected by this and will be more content and resilient in their lives.
I will not be in a constant state of distraction.


(Actually, I feel like this is not totally reasonable, like, asking for too much, but, that's what I have in mind, and, since I apparently don't know what I'm talking about, I thought, why not go for it?)


I look forward to hearing from you! Thank you fro doing this!

Take care beautiful Luchana!

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Luchana
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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Luchana » Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:44 pm

Hi Tannis,

Thank you for your reply regarding expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. It's quite common that very easy one can miss the obvious because is expecting something to happen, to change, to desolve, to melt, to disappear etc. Even what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation.

From my experience I can share with you that it's never, ever the way we expected to be.

Our main goal here is that you see experientially (not only on the intellectual level) that the I, me, Tannis do not exist as a separate entity in reality at all. All our efforts will be in this direction. Here (in the forum) you are not going to find "happily ever after” or seeing no self is not going to give you some super power. It is just the simple fact that there is no I, me, self here to be found; no I, me, self will be found, because none on these have ever existed.
freedom from fear . I wonder if that's what's at the centre.
Good. This is what we'll investigate here - what is exactly at the centre?
And what centre precisely.
I want freedom from fear, and to be fully present in this life.
We all want to live fearlessly, that’s natural for us as a human beings. But this may or may not happen. No one can say in advance. Sometimes one must faces his biggest fears just to see that they are nothing else, but unexamined thoughts and assumptions. Here we can look at these with curiosity.
and to be fully present in this life.
And what if there is no you, who can be fully present in this life?
What if there is only life? No you, no separate self, nothing at all.
Relief from a constant efforting, (not usually a verb, but seems more appropriate as a verb here), to protect myself, and prepare for whatever might happen
OK, this expectaion is on place. But the relief is not the final goal here. One could say that there is a relief seeing the reality the way it is , but again - don’t wait for something extraordinary, the shift could be so subtle, that even hardly noticable.
Even now you are not in control with whatever is happening, just there is no experiential recognition of this simple fact (for now only).
Yes, how can one really prepare anyways?
- Exactly! Good question to ask.

I will be relaxed, unworried, OPEN to what is here, open to experimenting......just ,open?
Able to let things go, physical , mental, emotional. Allow, accept.I willl be content.
I will be authentic, aware of and connected to my physical body. I will be inspired to do without fear. I will be patient and connected to people, life………..
All of these are on behalf of a separate individual, who wants to be relaxed, unworried, open to what is here. able to let things, content... the list is endless. The separate individual can only imagine what it can take for itself.
But what if in life, in reality there is a room for everything? Not only for one kind of emotions.
“Able to let go physical, mental and emotional”
This is not going to happen in a instant with a magic stick. Not at all. The old habbits, emotional trauma and pain don’t desolve in an instant the moment you see no-self. Some of them (if not all) requires lot's of future looking and somethimes these could disolve till the end of this lifetime. Seeing no - self is the first step and usually it is easier to continue the inner work when the illusion is seen through.
I will take nothing for granted, and be grateful and present with what or who is. My children will be affected by this and will be more content and resilient in their lives.
I will not be in a constant state of distraction.“
The old habbits of the personality will stay almost intact. Even now there is no separate self, so why these things change at all?
Distraction and other states may still happen.
Regarding closest family memebers, especially children - from my experience I could say yes - the relationships became more soft and harmonius, but this didn't happen in an instant. So don't expect magic here aswell :-)
Actually, I feel like this is not totally reasonable,


It’s good that you can see this. True, most of them are not totally reasonable. But it’s ok that you bring them on a daily light so we both can look at them and start fresh.
Thank you fro doing this!
It brings a lot of joy. You are more than welcome.

Please read my comments 2 or 3 times.

Is there a resistance to any of them?

Is there a part which is hard to accept?


Let me know what you find.

Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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Raquelflight
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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Raquelflight » Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:04 am

Hello Luchana,

I have read over your responses several times. Here are my thoughts.

.
Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation.
How do I rid myself of expectation?
I can see how expectations lead us everyday to disappointment. We imagine a future somehow, with a job , location, person......usually it's not what we had thought , but we feel it's disappointing in some way. Our expectations seem too high most often, not too low.
Our main goal here is that you see experientially (not only on the intellectual level) that the I, me, Tannis do not exist as a separate entity in reality at all.
Ok, so, just to be honest, I cannot even grasp this in an intellectual way, let alone experientially. So, I would say there is resistance. I want to figure this out, and understand it, so that I can move forward. There is like a cloud in my head, which I can't get through to understand it. Maybe the cloud is confusion, or resistance.
(From what I've heard, or read......the mind cannot understand, and fortunately, doesn't need to. )

It does seem form the conversations I read from LU, that many people are at a place where they say they know there is no self......ummmmm, I know, forget about having read that, right? I haven't been reading since you asked me not to.....that's just what I noted from all my research last week.

I feel like I am here! intellectually, I see how the past is a collection of stories.
Resistance: I have scars, and physical evidence surrounding me as a result of my past .....
no I, me, self will be found, because none on these have ever existed.
Wha....?mmmmm What is making an effort to keep the imaginary self alive? If the self never was real, it can't "do" anything.."..What's behind this then? Something seems very clever at safeguarding the existence of this self...."putting a smokescreen in front of life....Why? Why was it imagined into ...(.hmmmm, can't say being), imagination in the first place? What's the purpose? ....I'm not trying to be difficult. There's something here.......but, this is my honest reaction.....What wants to keep it? Did the mind create this, "me"? Am I confusing awareness with "me"?


Good. This is what we'll investigate here - what is exactly at the centre?
And what centre precisely.
I meant, "fear" may be at the Center of my discontent.......feeling that things are wrong.....maybe fear is the origin for all the longer answers I gave you yesterday, I wonder if everything could be simplified in this way.

We all want to live fearlessly, that’s natural for us as a human beings. But this may or may not happen. No one can say in advance. Sometimes one must faces his biggest fears just to see that they are nothing else, but unexamined thoughts and assumptions. Here we can look at these with curiosity.
I appreciate that no big promises, or even little ones, are being made........to be honest, as I gage my reactions, there is some disappointment. I do like magic. Then, I also like , "we can look at these with curiosity". Curiosity is a good start for sure, instead of more fear of the fear, or hiding it negating it.
And what if there is no you, who can be fully present in this life?

I can't imagine.....but maybe that's the way for life to be fully experienced, by.....itself? Maybe that will be a joy. I just cannot know, or imagine, from what I understand, no matter how much, how hard I think about it....I guess that's just a little mind mouse on a wheel. It will never arrive no matter how hard or fast it works.



What if there is only life? No you, no separate self, nothing at all.
If that's the truth, I want to live the truth......I don't understand no separate self.....it could be wonderful.

If there is only life.......well, sometimes I get a glimpse.....how could there be anything else?
"No separate self"......hmmmm, what is there to miss about my "self"? I have to think about that.....there's something there......maybe, nothing!!THAT was a good question! I really need to look there!!

"Nothing at all"....,wait, do you mean, no self At all, or, big zero? I mean, what's all this stuff around, people, creatures and plants.....if it's the second meaning........I have resistance, and more to say... I'll wait for clarification.
Even now you are not in control with whatever is happening
Resistance: I think I am, at least in small ways. For a long time I felt life was happening to me, I believe it was a bit of a victim attitude. then I felt like I could make choices, even about my thoughts.......(affirmations, mantras, the new popular book Atomic Habits' about changing and developing better habits......) meditating. So, choices=control, not over life, but my actions and mind. I have heard, there is a new scientific study of the brain and that decisions are made a dew seconds before of we think we make them......some resistance there, even though there were experiments done.


All of these are on behalf of a separate individual, who wants to be relaxed, unworried, open to what is here. able to let things, content... the list is endless. The separate individual can only imagine what it can take for itself.
But what if in life, in reality there is a room for everything? Not only for one kind of emotions.

Yes, my mind kept going with the list.....it became like a Christmas wish list.i want to respond everyday, so I had to send what I had, otherwise, I would've gone on endlessly.

"Room for everything", sounds wonderful and expansive.

The old habbits of the personality will stay almost intact. Even now there is no separate self, so why these things change at all?
Distraction and other states may still happen.
Regarding closest family memebers, especially children - from my experience I could say yes - the relationships became more soft and harmonius, but this didn't happen in an instant. So don't expect magic here aswell :-)

Why is there personality if there is no self? I imagine them combined......though, a personality can develop, change. I feel my self, as an awareness that has been constant through the various body, personality stages.

Oh, this was hard on an iPad.......I don't think I'll do that again.

I have to sleep, and, think about what I could miss about my self....wow , really, what?? If I never existed anyway, of course, there's NOTHING to be missed.............

Good night Luchana,

Thank you so much for your time again!

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Luchana
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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Luchana » Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:40 am

Hi Tannis,

thank you for sharing your thoughts with me. I'm not going to reply to all of them, just will shorly mark some. It's importnat that we don't to go into to much discussion how things are or are not. All those questions - you yourself will be able to answer.
In this investigation thinking and reasoning is utterly useless. So try to avoid it as much as it's possible. Just look what is here present. Not what thoughts are saying. Simply LOOK.
So, from now on - please try to completely ignore what thoughts bring (the content of thoughts) and just look directly at experience.

Ok, so, just to be honest, I cannot even grasp this in an intellectual way, let alone experientially. So, I would say there is resistance. I want to figure this out, and understand it, so that I can move forward. There is like a cloud in my head, which I can't get through to understand it. Maybe the cloud is confusion, or resistance.
(From what I've heard, or read......the mind cannot understand, and fortunately, doesn't need to. )
Just relax and trust the proccess. No intellect is needed here. Simple looking with curiosity and openness. In a childish way.
Wha....?mmmmm What is making an effort to keep the imaginary self alive? If the self never was real, it can't "do" anything.."..What's behind this then? Something seems very clever at safeguarding the existence of this self...."putting a smokescreen in front of life....Why? Why was it imagined into ...(.hmmmm, can't say being), imagination in the first place? What's the purpose? ....I'm not trying to be difficult. There's something here.......but, this is my honest reaction.....What wants to keep it? Did the mind create this, "me"? Am I confusing awareness with "me"?
This exactly we are starting to explore.
I appreciate that no big promises, or even little ones, are being made........to be honest, as I gage my reactions, there is some disappointment. I do like magic. Then, I also like , "we can look at these with curiosity". Curiosity is a good start for sure, instead of more fear of the fear, or hiding it negating it.
good :-)
"Nothing at all"....,wait, do you mean, no self At all, or, big zero? I mean, what's all this stuff around, people, creatures and plants.....if it's the second meaning........I have resistance, and more to say... I'll wait for clarification.
Clarification comes with LOOKING, not with THINKING.
"Room for everything", sounds wonderful and expansive.
isn't it? :-)

Let's now make something very simple. Sit on a quiet place and pay attention to the thoughts, how they arise and subside. But don't engage with what they bring (i.e the content).Between each thought there is a litlle gap.

Can you see this?


Play with this during the day. Each time when you have a minute or two just observe the thoughts this way and notice the small gap between them.


For the next exercise you will need a sheet of paper and a pen. Sit and write the first 10 thoughts in the exact order, in which they are coming. When you finish read them and reply:

When the first thought came, do you know what will be the last one?

Did you know the order when you started doing this?

Did you arrange the thoughts in that particular order exactly?

Do you know which thought will be next before it appears?

Can a thought think?



Take your time and try to completely ignore the content of the thoughts (what they are saying).
Just LOOK, curiously, but vigiland and reply each question individually.

Let me know what you find.

Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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Raquelflight
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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Raquelflight » Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:13 am

Hello again,
Between each thought there is a litlle gap.

Can you see this?
Yes
When the first thought came, do you know what will be the last one?
no
Did you know the order when you started doing this?
no
Do you know which thought will be next before it appears?
no
Can a thought think?
no


Thank you again! Look forward to hearing from you tomorrow!

Tannis

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Luchana
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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Luchana » Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:31 am

Hi Tannis,

thank you for being so strict. But with the exercise and replies you've gone in the other direction. You are not helping me replying with one or two words, since this communication is the only way to know where are you. Let's find some middle way :-)
It is ok to write what you see at experiecne, not just with yes ot no. While doing the exercise and repling the asked questons describe what you see. Just report from looking. So I will know where you are.

Is that ok?


And don't rush to quick to answer. Take your time. Look not just ones, or twice. Look and check 30-40-50 or more times. Spend whole day looking and investigating. It is perfect to post once a day as I wrote in the fisrt message, but be sure that your answers are coming from looking and not from thinking.

So, let's try again. You will need 5-10 min somewhere in a quiet place.

You can close your eyes and just begin to observe the thoughts. (not the content of thoughts) :


Where are they coming from? And where are they going?

Can the exact place be localised? Where is it?


Set the alarm for a 2 min and try to think only for a flower. Think only for a rose. For a red one.

Set the alarm for another 2 min and try to stop a thought from appearing. Just try to stop it. Even not in the beginning, but it the middle.

Set the alarm for 2 more min and try to stop thinking. Completely.


Let me know what you find in these three simple exercises.

Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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Raquelflight
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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Raquelflight » Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:30 am

Hi Luchana!
Is that ok?
Of course!

I thought I was seeing clear more focused answers, (though - "does a thought think?" stopped me for a bit....), and , getting a lighter day......

You can close your eyes and just begin to observe the thoughts. (not the content of thoughts) :
I don't think I can do that at the exact same time.......Sometimes just after. I have a thought, then , think, that's just a thought.....omg! which, is another thought!!?
Often the content is recognized and draws me in. I feel that I can recognize more frequently that this has happened, so I go back and forth between "thinking" and recognizing I have been away with thoughts/ having a thought. Recognizing I have followed the thoughts happens more often. I feel sometimes I have thoughts/ memories that are purposely emotive.....that having me hooked by an emotional response is more of a sure thing......for whatever wants to have me carried away by thoughts.
Where are they coming from? And where are they going?
I have no idea. They appear, then seem to not be there when another takes the place of the previous. I can't say they arise, as that indicates a direction. I don't feel they come from any direction. They are not coming up, down ,sideways. There seems to be a seed of the next thought in a thought ........they are not totally disconnected, but I still can't guess what's coming.....if I do, then, that's the thought!! It seems slightly surprising I can't know what the next thought will be, as, I seem to have a lot of the same repetitive things in the mind.
Can the exact place be localised? Where is it?
No. My impression is that its in the brain somewhere. The thoughts are not in ....my thumb, for example. Perhaps because I feel that that is where I am, In my head, behind my eyes a bit.
Set the alarm for a 2 min and try to think only for a flower. Think only for a rose. For a red one.
I was unsuccessful with the exercises. I thought maybe a red rose had too many symbols attached, and that words/labels were appearing as a result. So, I tried a yellow rose. Thoughts appeared, and the flower would not hold still, so that was distracting from just focussing on it. Blue hydrangea...........thoughts appeared around it. Labelling happened with the flowers.....then, I decided to try 2 minutes repeating the flowers labels at the same time......thoughts still appeared. "Blue hydrangea" repeated, was not enough of a fence to thoughts.
Set the alarm for another 2 min and try to stop a thought from appearing. Just try to stop it. Even not in the beginning, but it the middle.
No. Failed . My thoughts are not a trail of words that come up one at a time. They are fully formed. I had the impression I was able to stop a couple midway, but I realized what I was doing was quickly replaying the thought a second time, and feeling that I stopped the words mid-sentence. Then, I thought that maybe my thoughts were very short, and that it was hard not to see the end because of this. I was not successful at having a more complicated thought, which I could then stop before I was finished the end.

There seems to be 2 types of thoughts......english words, and images.....(sometimes there is music...)
They are: Memories,(which, generally we think are "real"), imagination about the future, pure imagination. ( I envisioned a flying dragon outside of my window.) I changed some details of memories,and replayed them. All of these things have the EXACT same quality to them.
Set the alarm for 2 more min and try to stop thinking. Completely.
Nope. Fail. Then I tried 2 minutes of being aware of the breath.....saying just "in....out" to myself. This was too simplistic, and thoughts were able to wind in around these words.

2 minutes Ho'oponopono. Similar. Thought came into the breaks between the expressions.

2 minutes very fast Ho'oponopono.....better......still some thinking appeared.

I will try listening to chanting / and chanting next.

Thank you!

Tannis

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Luchana
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Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Luchana » Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:35 pm

Hi Tannis,
(though - "does a thought think?" stopped me for a bit....), and , getting a lighter day......
Great. stay with this question a bit more.

don't think I can do that at the exact same time.......Sometimes just after. I have a thought, then , think, that's just a thought.....omg! which, is another thought!!?
Often the content is recognized and draws me in. I feel that I can recognize more frequently that this has happened, so I go back and forth between "thinking" and recognizing I have been away with thoughts/ having a thought. Recognizing I have followed the thoughts happens more often. I feel sometimes I have thoughts/ memories that are purposely emotive.....that having me hooked by an emotional response is more of a sure thing......for whatever wants to have me carried away by thoughts.
In the begining it could be a little bit challenging since we all are used to with thinking so much, that we cannot see what is really going on. But gradually with looking it is getting easier and lighter.

I have no idea. They appear, then seem to not be there when another takes the place of the previous. I can't say they arise, as that indicates a direction. I don't feel they come from any direction. They are not coming up, down ,sideways.
You did a good looking here, Tannis.
There seems to be a seed of the next thought in a thought
There seems to be a seed?
or
There is a seed?


Have a look.

How is this seed shows up exactly?
How is it experienced?
As an image, as a sound, as a sensation? Or as an imagination?


they are not totally disconnected,
And how exactly are thoughts connected?
Where is the connection between them?
Here, there? Or nowhere?
Can you see it? Point to it? Smell it even?
How is this connection experienced?

No. My impression is that its in the brain somewhere.


In this investigation "impressions" won't work.
"it's in the brain somewhere" is something learned, some assumption that you carry.
And with this investigation we are looking if this (and many other) beliefs can stand up to the scrutiny of reality .

So let's look now.
How do you know experientialy that ""it's in the brain somewhere"?
If it is somewhere you will be able to point the exact place. Where is it?
Can you observe this place which is "in the brain" right now?
Can you observe the brain right now? Outiside of the imagination?
Try and let me know.

Perhaps because I feel that that is where I am, In my head, behind my eyes a bit.
Is that sensation between the eyes, actually appears as you? Could it be just a sensation?


Close your eyes, and just pay attention to the sensations of your right hand. Feel the hand,
Now move attention to your left hand. Feel both hands.

Are the sensations of the hands felt from or by the sensations in between the eyes?
What do you find?
I envisioned a flying dragon outside of my window.
Interesting. Let's look at this flying dragon.

So, you are envisioned a flying dragon?
And how the thought "I will envisioned a flying dragon" came exactly?
How you created this thought?
Did you know that this thought" I will envision a flying dragon" will appear before it appears?

Don't guess. Just look.


Try again now. Think about this dragon.
The thought is here, yes. This is 100 % sure.
Now go to the window. What about the dragon, Tannis?
Is there an actual, real dragon outside your window when you think the thought "dragon"?

2 minutes Ho'oponopono. Similar. Thought came into the breaks between the expressions.

2 minutes very fast Ho'oponopono.....better......still some thinking appeared.

I will try listening to chanting / and chanting next.
I am not familiar with these very much...you can just leave them for the time of this investigation. Later you can pick them back, I promise :-)



Take your time

Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

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Raquelflight
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:20 am

Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Raquelflight » Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:24 am

Hello Luchana,

I have written about some of my responses in a journal. I have to transfer to you next.

I am not taking a break, I am looking again at what you've asked. I am trying to move my awareness around in my body. I have no evidence that I am in my head, not a sensation there, but when I close my eyes, I sense my mouth, to begin with, "below", lower down, and then other body parts lower down. I will do your suggested exercise more.

Who/what had the idea to imagine a dragon? Ohhhh, the same thing that creates all thoughts and imaginings....oh oh. I have to sit with this a bit more.

I was going to try to stay awake longer. It is only 8:15.....I am exhausted for no reason.

I will write everyday, but need more time here.

Good night!

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Luchana
Posts: 224
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:23 pm

Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Luchana » Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:32 pm

Hi Tannis,

do not worry and rush with the reply. Take your time. If you receive the message from me in the evening there is no need to asnwer right now. Reflect and look the whole next day and in the evening you can write ..
Posting each day really keeps focus.
It is only 8:15.....I am exhausted for no reason.
yes, I know this feeling. Just trust the process, it already started. Sometime it can be powerful, nothing to worry about. Focus on the questions I've asked you and explore like a child.

Much love,
Luchana
Remember. You're dreaming.

User avatar
Raquelflight
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:20 am

Re: Seems I could use a hand here

Postby Raquelflight » Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:27 am

Hello Luchana,

Well I had a reply, went to review, walked away for a minute, and poof! It disappeared! (I feel there is something I'm me trying to sabotage this effort........ho many imaginary people are in here anyway?)

Ok, here we go again.....
In the begining it could be a little bit challenging since we all are used to with thinking so much, that we cannot see what is really going on. But gradually with looking it is getting easier and lighter.
I recognize more and more frequently that I have been "thinking", so am here, experiencing at least for a brief period after noticing.


There seems to be a seed?
or
There is a seed?
There is a seed.


How is this seed shows up exactly?
How is it experienced?
As an image, as a sound, as a sensation? Or as an imagination?

I only know there was a seed when I look back at the thoughts, and see the connection. The seed is not experienced, except in another thought recognizing it. I do not know where the train will take me, though there is recognition of things, events brought up by thoughts. Often it is surprising, something not in the mind recently, an event seemingly forgotten.


nd how exactly are thoughts connected?
Where is the connection between them?
there? Or nowhere?
Can you see it? Point to it? Smell it even?
How is this connection experienced?
They are imaginary, so, the connection imaginary. I cannot experience it, except in another thought......there is no connection.

Thought, daydream , memory, imagining of past present , future........and, even decisions, even decisions which have prompted action......all of these have the same quality, of not existing!

Some resistance especially to decisions which are followed by action.......even though, they are not dissimilar to decisions folowed by inaction........or, any thought for that matter. Eek!


How do you know experientialy that ""it's in the brain somewhere"?
If it is somewhere you will be able to point the exact place. Where is it?
Can you observe this place which is "in the brain" right now?
Can you observe the brain right now? Outiside of the imagination?
Try and let me know.


I do not know experientially that "it's in the brain somewhere". I cannot point to, or find the exact place. I can observe the brain, at any time.


Is that sensation between the eyes, actually appears as you? Could it be just a sensation?


Close your eyes, and just pay attention to the sensations of your right hand. Feel the hand,
Now move attention to your left hand. Feel both hands.

Are the sensations of the hands felt from or by the sensations in between the eyes?
What do you find?
I actually have no sensation behind my eyes........just an idea,(yes, I know, no ideas allowed!), that's where awareness resides. (I think , this is because the senses of seeing and hearing are so strong........I know, no thinking!)

I don't find the sensations of parts of the body are felt from behind the eyes.............I still feel that parts of the body have locations. For example, beginning with my teeth/tongue. I feel it's "below" me..... As are most body parts, unless I raise my arm while being aware is sensations there.




Interesting. Let's look at this flying dragon.

So, you are envisioned a flying dragon?
And how the thought "I will envisioned a flying dragon" came exactly?
How you created this thought?
Did you know that this thought" I will envision a flying dragon" will appear before it appears?


Try again now. Think about this dragon.
The thought is here, yes. This is 100 % sure.
Now go to the window. What about the dragon, Tannis?
Is there an actual, real dragon outside your window when you think the thought "dragon"?

Of course, the dragon isn't there, isn't real........and even the thought isn't real.....there is resistance to "this thought appeared just as others do in the mind, therefore is also unreal. I didn't know I was going to create a thought about creating an imaginary dragon. Therefore, it would seem to follow, ok, it follows that, I am not deciding anything in regards to the thoughts in my mind, therefore, not deciding anything, therefore,..... Not in control.....oooooh!little foggy with that!

I didn't create this thought!omg! Who /what did then!!? (Yes, I know you are not going to answer.....)

I even have a rather stern little Luchana with crossed arms here in my mind.......so crowded, with....nothing!


Where are they coming from? And where are they going?

Can the exact place be localised? Where is it?

Nowhere.....no, it cannot be localized. (How can this be?) on the other hand , what kind of place would store and or create all this stuff?

Ok, good night!

Thank you so much!


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