Seeking no self

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
BobS
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:08 am

Re: Seeking no self

Postby BobS » Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:59 pm

Warissem,

Thanks for being patient with me.
Would you speak about yourself, what are you ? Feel free to elaborate.
I am a mind inside a body.

Is there another strategy we can follow? Because I know you will say that 'mind' and 'body' are concepts, and I must LOOK deeper, and I will try and try and try but see nothing. For me the 'I' is just THERE, and no amount of looking can find anything. I'm open to the possibility that everyone else can see it but not me. But if we just keep doing the same thing I will get frustrated and just give up, as I have so many times before.

Thanks,

Bob

User avatar
warissem
Posts: 273
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Seeking no self

Postby warissem » Sun Oct 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Hi Bob
I am a mind inside a body.

Is there another strategy we can follow? Because I know you will say that 'mind' and 'body' are concepts, and I must LOOK deeper, and I will try and try and try but see nothing. For me the 'I' is just THERE, and no amount of looking can find anything. I'm open to the possibility that everyone else can see it but not me. But if we just keep doing the same thing I will get frustrated and just give up, as I have so many times before.
Do you mean that you are a soul inside a body?

Yes, mind and body are concepts but they point to appearances in direct experience : the concept “mind” points to thoughts, the concept “body” points to colors, forms, sensations. “I” is a concept which points to nothing. You said about “I” : “I will try and try and try but see nothing”.
You see nothing because there is nothing to find.

You reinforced what you see :” For me the 'I' is just THERE, and no amount of looking can find anything”.

Now, there are two ways : 1) you have looked at yourself and you find nothing but you don’t believe the seeing.
Or 2) you are confusing yourself with awareness.

I have already said in previous posts that awareness IS, but it is not you.
Awareness is impersonal.

Warissem

I asked a question in the last post : what are you ?
You answered briefly : “I am a mind inside a body”
I was expecting a long description of yourself.

YOU ARE RESISTING TO LOOK. YOU ARE AFRAID TO SEE THERE IS NO YOU.

When you read the text above, what are the thoughts arising? What are the sensations in your body? In the gut, in the chest?

User avatar
warissem
Posts: 273
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Seeking no self

Postby warissem » Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:46 pm

Bob

I recommend this video for you :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUZdval ... e=youtu.be

Warissem

User avatar
BobS
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:08 am

Re: Seeking no self

Postby BobS » Sun Oct 04, 2020 9:03 pm

Do you mean that you are a soul inside a body?
I don't know what a soul is. It's not a word I use. But maybe that's correct.


Now, there are two ways : 1) you have looked at yourself and you find nothing but you don’t believe the seeing.
Or 2) you are confusing yourself with awareness.
When I say "I find nothing" I don't mean that I look and see 'nothing'. I mean that I can not look at what I call me. Just as I cannot look at my eyes, I cannot look at 'me'. I sit and try for hours, and what continually comes up is "what is looking cannot look at ITSELF". That's as far as I get. Then the next day I try for more hours, and that's the same conclusion. I try very hard, but I don't see the 'self' as a potential object, as you apparently do.



Am I confusing myself with awareness? I don't know how to investigate that. Maybe it's true.
I have already said in previous posts that awareness IS, but it is not you.
Awareness is impersonal.
You may be right, but I don't find that in my experience.


I asked a question in the last post : what are you ?
You answered briefly : “I am a mind inside a body”
I was expecting a long description of yourself.
OK, a long description. I am a self that appears to live inside a body. I have been obsessed with Nonduality for many years and want to see my true nature. I have tried many approaches and believe they work for others but not for me. I think there is something wrong with me that I cannot see No-self. The self is the basic unit of what makes up me. I don't want it to be that way, but it seems obvious that it IS that way.


YOU ARE RESISTING TO LOOK. YOU ARE AFRAID TO SEE THERE IS NO YOU.

When you read the text above, what are the thoughts arising? What are the sensations in your body? In the gut, in the chest?

The sensations in my gut and chest are first, anger. As in, "How can Warissem say that? I'm trying so hard!" But then I calm down by telling myself that you have seen this for many years, and perhaps are impatient with someone who just doesn't see. It must be so OBVIOUS for you, and it's not obvious to me, no matter how hard I try. So you conclude that I am afraid to see it.

The next thought is "How could I be afraid to see there is no 'you'? I've spent THOUSANDS and many weeks going to India and sitting on an uncomfortable mat meditating, trying to see this. At no time did I think "I'm going to spend all this money and time to prove the Swami is WRONG! I truly DON'T want to see that there is no 'me'!"

My next thought is "how could ANYONE be resistant to look? Why would they not look? What bad thing do they think will happen? Especially if they are being guided by a volunteer such as you? Are there actually people on Earth who have the thought "I don't want to look, but I LOVE wasting my time and Warissem's time! I'll just keep playing at this because I have SO MUCH spare time to waste, and I'll get nothing out of it but I don't care!" Are there people like that? I can't imagine it.

I watched the video by Ilona you sent. I agree with the part about how the body knows what it wants, and when it needs food, sleep, etc. I know she says the body is not 'my' body, but it's just 'arising'. That's too mystical for me. The body feels like it's my body.

User avatar
warissem
Posts: 273
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Seeking no self

Postby warissem » Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:58 pm

Hi Bob
When I say "I find nothing" I don't mean that I look and see 'nothing'. I mean that I can not look at what I call me. Just as I cannot look at my eyes, I cannot look at 'me'. I sit and try for hours, and what continually comes up is "what is looking cannot look at ITSELF". That's as far as I get. Then the next day I try for more hours, and that's the same conclusion. I try very hard, but I don't see the 'self' as a potential object, as you apparently do.
You know "what is looking cannot look at itself" : OK. What is IT?
you think really that a self is an object and you are doing your best to find it. You won't find nothing even you are still believing in it. In the first posts, I asked you to see that there is no you, no self.


What is aware right now, reading and understanding these words ? You wil say :me. Then I ask again : what are you? what is this "I" you put before each verb ? Look.


Looking does not mean look in your room to find something. Looking is like looking at your thoughts, at sensations, at the place where you think you are inhabiting in your head as you said it. Is it a you there or a sensation only ? Anyway what is seeing this "bundle of energy" in the center of your head as you said it? Don't say "me" because it is a turning around, a resistance. Give it a shot and see the truth.

The sensations in my gut and chest are first, anger.
Sensations in the gut and chest are only sensations. Raw sensations. The dictionary says : anger is a strong feeling of annoyance, displeasure, or hostility. You need to look at the anger. What makes you angry ?

Is it "You are resisting to look? OR You are afraid to see there is no you ?


Answer to each question with no mind, in direct experience.

Warissem

User avatar
BobS
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:08 am

Re: Seeking no self

Postby BobS » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:12 am

You know "what is looking cannot look at itself" : OK. What is IT?
It is this sense of I, this center of feeling. I cannot define it further than that.

What is aware right now, reading and understanding these words ? You wil say :me. Then I ask again : what are you? what is this "I" you put before each verb ? Look.
I look for hour after hour. All that I can see is 'Energy'.

Is it a you there or a sensation only ? Anyway what is seeing this "bundle of energy" in the center of your head as you said it? Don't say "me" because it is a turning around, a resistance. Give it a shot and see the truth.
What sees it is Consciousness.

Is it "You are resisting to look? OR You are afraid to see there is no you ?
Answer to each question with no mind, in direct experience.
It is neither of these. I am not resisting to look. And I am not afraid to see there is no you.

User avatar
warissem
Posts: 273
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Seeking no self

Postby warissem » Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:12 pm

Hi Bob

It is this sense of I, this center of feeling. I cannot define it further than that.
Yes, it could be a sense of "I" but it is not a feeling.

What sees it is Consciousness.
Yes. Consciousness means : being conscious, being aware.

I want to make sure that we share the same meaning of consciousness.

Is consciousness known through the five senses ?
Is consciousness a thought ?
Is consciousness a sensation ?
Or is consciousness known by itself?
Does it need a you to know itself?
Are you aware right now ?
Does being aware need an I ? Does it need Bob ?

Best wishes,
Warissem

User avatar
BobS
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:08 am

Re: Seeking no self

Postby BobS » Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:03 am

Is consciousness known through the five senses ?
Is consciousness a thought ?
Is consciousness a sensation ?
Or is consciousness known by itself?
Does it need a you to know itself?
Are you aware right now ?
Does being aware need an I ? Does it need Bob ?
Is consciousness known through the five senses? No.
Is it a thought? No, it is aware of thoughts.
Is it a sensation? No, it is what is aware of the sensations.
Is consciousness known by itself? Yes.
Does it need a you to know itself? Yes.
Are you aware right now? Yes.
Does being aware need an I? Does it need Bob? Yes. And I suspect this is true for me but not for others.

User avatar
warissem
Posts: 273
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Seeking no self

Postby warissem » Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:07 pm

Hi Bob
Is consciousness known through the five senses? No.
Is it a thought? No, it is aware of thoughts.
Is it a sensation? No, it is what is aware of the sensations.
Is consciousness known by itself? Yes.
A big yes for what is said above.
Does it need a you to know itself? Yes.
Are you aware right now? Yes.
Does being aware need an I? Does it need Bob? Yes. And I suspect this is true for me but not for others.
There is an exercise for you :

1) Write down all what you know about I and about Bob and come back with a resume.
2) Write down all what you know about "being aware" or "consciousness"

Best wishes

Warissem

User avatar
BobS
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:08 am

Re: Seeking no self

Postby BobS » Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:25 pm

1) Write down all what you know about I and about Bob and come back with a resume.
2) Write down all what you know about "being aware" or "consciousness"
Bob is a spiritual seeker who is male, curious, persistent, strong-minded, and sometimes helpful to others.
He is a mind and a body which is typing these words. He like to eat and exercise and sleep. He has been
on a spiritual journey for many years. He is fascinated by the topic of nonduality or No Self but thinks
that this is difficult or impossible to see.

"Being Aware" refers to using the senses to perceive what is going on. It includes the five senses, plus noticing
what is happening in the mind, like thoughts, feelings, emotions, memories. It has not opinions or attitudes about anything. At night during sleep it is either not present (as during deep sleep) or, when dreaming, it is only aware of the dream and not of the input from the senses.

User avatar
warissem
Posts: 273
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Seeking no self

Postby warissem » Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:25 pm

Hi Bob
Bob is a spiritual seeker who is male, curious, persistent, strong-minded, and sometimes helpful to others.
He is a mind and a body which is typing these words. He like to eat and exercise and sleep. He has been
on a spiritual journey for many years. He is fascinated by the topic of nonduality or No Self but thinks
that this is difficult or impossible to see.
From your point of view Bob is described as you did it. Now, read your answer with a tool called "Looking at direct experience". Direct experience is what is seen, what is heard, what is smelt, what is tasted, and bodily sensations. Give me a new description of Bob on the direct experience basis.

"Being Aware" refers to using the senses to perceive what is going on. It includes the five senses, plus noticing
what is happening in the mind, like thoughts, feelings, emotions, memories. It has not opinions or attitudes about anything. At night during sleep it is either not present (as during deep sleep) or, when dreaming, it is only aware of the dream and not of the input from the senses
I don't want to speak about vedanta here, in this dialog. There is what is right in what you said, there is what is wrong. There is something I want you to know : there is being aware of (the sensations, thoughts, objects, ...) and there is being aware of being aware (this does not need senses).

I suggest this video for you :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ8tQYYNIg0

Best wishes

Warissem

User avatar
BobS
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:08 am

Re: Seeking no self

Postby BobS » Sat Nov 07, 2020 2:16 am

From your point of view Bob is described as you did it. Now, read your answer with a tool called "Looking at direct experience". Direct experience is what is seen, what is heard, what is smelt, what is tasted, and bodily sensations. Give me a new description of Bob on the direct experience basis.
OK, based on direct experience, Bob is fingers typing this on a keyboard, eyes looking through glasses, a cool breeze landing on skin from the open window, a itchy sense in the feet, a growling stomach, a feeling of a body sitting on a chair, a noticing of thirst for water, getting up to change the light, scratching the nose, tasting a slightly sour taste in the mouth.

User avatar
warissem
Posts: 273
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Seeking no self

Postby warissem » Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:24 pm

Hi Bob
OK, based on direct experience, Bob is fingers typing this on a keyboard, eyes looking through glasses, a cool breeze landing on skin from the open window, a itchy sense in the feet, a growling stomach, a feeling of a body sitting on a chair, a noticing of thirst for water, getting up to change the light, scratching the nose, tasting a slightly sour taste in the mouth.
yes, the description comes from direct experience. BUT is there Bob in direct experience ? Are there eyes looking or is there looking only?

Looking at direct experience, close your eyes and give answers to these questions :

What is a body ?
Does a body have a size, a weight, limitations, outside of thought ?


Best wishes

Warissem

User avatar
BobS
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:08 am

Re: Seeking no self

Postby BobS » Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:50 am

Are there eyes looking or is there looking only?
Yes, there are eyes looking. I can FEEL my eyes. When I close them I can feel the eyelids against them blocking the light.
So I know they are the ones looking.
What is a body ?
Does a body have a size, a weight, limitations, outside of thought ?
A body is a big piece of flesh, with sense organs.

With my eyes closed I can feel the weight of my body on the chair, so I know it's there. Is that thought? I don't think so.

User avatar
warissem
Posts: 273
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Seeking no self

Postby warissem » Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:27 pm

Hi Bob

Definitions :
A thought = idea, opinion, belief, concept
A direct experience = experience gained through immediate SENSE perception.

I asked these questions :

is there Bob in direct experience ? You bypassed this question.

Are there eyes looking or is there looking only?

Your answer was :
Yes, there are eyes looking. I can FEEL my eyes. When I close them I can feel the eyelids against them blocking the light. So I know they are the ones looking.
We can analyze you answer through the definitions above :
"They are eyes looking" : thought
"I can feel my eyes" : sensations are felt,
"When I close them I can feel the eyelids against them blocking the light". : a train of thoughts
You have demonstrated then : "So I know they are the ones looking" : a train of thoughts

The same with the body. Your answer is a train of thoughts.

It is simple to look and see what is here now. you always choose to go to thoughts to answer the questions. I cannot do the looking in your place. You have to let open your five senses and see if there is Bob or you doing things; I gave to you a lot of pointers to make you see the truth. But you make no effort for yourself.
You need to look again and again at the exercises I have given to you in previous posts. When you come to discriminate between a thought and a direct experience, look again at the questions of my last post and give your answers.

Warissem


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests