No self inquiry

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Bohjaangles
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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Bohjaangles » Sat Oct 03, 2020 7:32 am

For a while there might be looking and not finding. But there comes a point of knowing that separate self is impossible.
Nothing changes, all goes as it did, there never was a me in charge of a separate piece of life. Life goes on. By itself. See the difference?
Yes, that makes sense. I think the frequent searching is because I am often thinking and ruminating about the self referential stories, and when that is noticed, I check and look, hopefully to establish a different baseline through repitition
And what are you seeking for? Precisely?
a breakthrough feeling. Reading the gateless gatecrashers, many of the poeple seemed to have some sort of "Ah-ha!" moment. As if there are some implications that must come from such a realization. This may be foolish, but your question was surprising, and so upon reflection, I think this is what I am seeking

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Ilona
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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Ilona » Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:10 am

Thank you.
And what are you seeking for? Precisely?
a breakthrough feeling. Reading the gateless gatecrashers, many of the poeple seemed to have some sort of "Ah-ha!" moment. As if there are some implications that must come from such a realization. This may be foolish, but your question was surprising, and so upon reflection, I think this is what I am seeking
Hm, a feeling? It’s not a feeling. It’s knowing. Aha moment can be so subtle that it may go unnoticed and only seen when looked back. So don’t wait for anything special. Essentially it is only a drop of a belief. One day you believe that there is me in charge of a separate piece of life, next day this makes no sense.

Here is a question for you:
Is there I that can awaken?
Is there a gate to cross?


Love.

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Bohjaangles
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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Bohjaangles » Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:52 pm

Thank you Ilona!
Is there I that can awaken?
Is there a gate to cross?
No, there is no I to awaken. That has been rather established at this point.

And a gate to cross? Well the gate is a metaphor, and the transition from suspecting to knowing is the best interpretation of crossing that gate to be figured, and if so, it has been crossed. Is there an actual gate? I mean there are many, but not in referance to what we are talking about here :)

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Ilona
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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Ilona » Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:29 am

Sweet.
How does that look in normal everyday life? What are the implications?

Love.

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Bohjaangles
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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Bohjaangles » Fri Oct 09, 2020 7:35 am

How does that look in normal everyday life?
That there is nothing to really to yearn to be. It's probably just best to enjoy the experience and see what happens. It hasn't changed much in every day life, less negative feelings around should, such as regret isnt as much of judgement, and the attachement to the story of me is significantly reduced.
It is simpler to troubleshoot the problems of living in this world, such as the mental energy required to fulfill tasks XYB was insufficient, and why might that be, oh, too tired and need sleep, or work is too engaged for too long and stress is causing these changes in intended gourse of achieving goals. Less "If I just try harder, I can do all these things!" Its not that I failed, its that the required circumstances for success as however that is defined were not sufficently present.
What are the implications?
Therre is no me on the hook for anything and free will isn't really a thing.

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Bohjaangles
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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Bohjaangles » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:52 am

Therre is no me on the hook for anything
To clarify, there is no special separate from the living me right here and now I, like I am still liable as an agent living in the world, and responsible for the actions I perform to other people, which is weird with the whole free will thing.

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Ilona
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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Ilona » Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:51 am

That there is nothing to really to yearn to be. It's probably just best to enjoy the experience and see what happens. It hasn't changed much in every day life, less negative feelings around should, such as regret isnt as much of judgement, and the attachement to the story of me is significantly reduced.
It is simpler to troubleshoot the problems of living in this world, such as the mental energy required to fulfill tasks XYB was insufficient, and why might that be, oh, too tired and need sleep, or work is too engaged for too long and stress is causing these changes in intended gourse of achieving goals. Less "If I just try harder, I can do all these things!" Its not that I failed, its that the required circumstances for success as however that is defined were not sufficently present.
Good stuff. Yes, same old, normal living and less of judgement, regret and attachment to the story. Cool. This is a subtle shift, but very deep, it continues to unfold.
Therre is no me on the hook for anything
To clarify, there is no special separate from the living me right here and now I, like I am still liable as an agent living in the world, and responsible for the actions I perform to other people, which is weird with the whole free will thing.
Is that a paradox?
Can you give me examples of where you are responsible? Like right here right now, what are you responsible for? What is not simply naturally flowing by itself?

Love.

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Bohjaangles
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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Bohjaangles » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:21 am

s that a paradox?
Can you give me examples of where you are responsible?
No I meant like I meant like I get laws and things and friends and responsabilites I take on, are still a thing. I just dont have to have any emptions around success or failure in them as there is no I to do anything about it

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Ilona
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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Ilona » Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:31 am

That sounds great, the stickiness is no longer there and life can happen freely :)

Would you say a big fat YES, it’s clear that there never was a separate being, i in charge of life?
Or is there any doubt?

What else comes up in daily life as a challenge?
Is there anything else that you would like to explore?

Love.

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Bohjaangles
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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Bohjaangles » Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:09 am

Would you say a big fat YES, it’s clear that there never was a separate being, i in charge of life?
Or is there any doubt?
I would have to agree. It has settled in a bit more, and its strange that we essentially still have to talk like there is an I in charge, or maybe that is automatically inferred, but yeah, there neverwas an I in charge, just a thought process that was conditioned to claim ownership of everything, and it has been seen as just another thought or pattern of thoughts. The space between the thoughts has also been seen, and there is nothing there, just awarenessm, and sometimes not even that.
What else comes up in daily life as a challenge?
Ha! Just keeping up with everything; I have a two city float therapy business and its been a struggle for a while, and trying to grow the business to where it generates a lot of wealth and maintain what we have built thus far and have a life outside of that can certainly be a challenge.
Is there anything else that you would like to explore?
Yes, this no self work, it seems to be found in types of buddhism, such as zen, and I wonder, is that where you came across the tools for this? I found when reading and talking about this with some firneds that there are other illusions that are taken for granted but do not seem to be grounded in much other than firm belief and language. Such as time and locality. Which is hard for me to grasp in a similar way as no self was before the work really began. Have you ever explored this or have any insight into this? Can it also be seen through or found through pointing?

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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Ilona » Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:44 am

Thank you for reply.
Sweet to hear the yes!

We can explore time and locality. For starters watch this video https://youtu.be/G4j6cUwCRmI
Then look in your experience, how do you perceive time. With eyes closed, what is time?
With eyes open, how do you perceive time?
write what feels true and we go further.

We can also look at the struggle to keep everything up. Like does worrying about what happens affect what happens?

Love

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Bohjaangles
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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Bohjaangles » Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:31 am

That is very exciting Ilona! thank you for continueing to work with me :)
Then look in your experience, how do you perceive time.
Okay, so I normally perceive time chronologically, as i one moment seems to lead into the next. Sometimes the experience of time can vary, and I think that is mostly dependant on mood or activities engaged in, such as an objective hour can fly by when I am rock climbing, while an identically objective hour can crawl by if I am waiting for something and impatient about it.
With eyes closed, what is time?
It is a changing of experience. Awareness notices the begining and process and then ending of various things, and some take longer than others, that longer or shorter is a quality of which I attribute to time. Such as a thought begins, is in process and then ends and is gone, or a sound happens, like a drip of water, it happens quite quickly, and then the furnace begins to make sounds for a bit, and it is a sustained hum for a period of maybe five minutes, and then its sound quality changes and diminishes until it is no longer perceivable. These do not appear to have all happened at the same instance, but at different instances.
With eyes open, how do you perceive time?
Not so different from eyes closed but there is more to be aware of and notice, like a clock, that changes its position gradually.
Like does worrying about what happens affect what happens?
Only in so far as the more worry present, the more aware I am of it, which is an admittedly shitty way of being aware of something. Worry isn't really the issue though, as both the no self work has helped put that into perspective, and there a lot of supports to deal with the worry. It's the continuation of working really hard and long hours and often making ends meet in the nick of time or letting somebody down and the slow progression of improving my personal and company financial position is becoming exhausting. Yes, over the past 5-6 years, skills have been learned and improved and the business is growing and becoming more robust, but also fragile as mistakes can be more impactful, though so can successes.There is more work to do, and more costs need be cut, and that often means more work to do, which is fine, but I want to go rock climbing and visit friends and have time and space for a romantic life and this is often limited by having so much work to do. You might ask why do it then, why not just go get a different job that is more in line with the amount of work and commitment that would allow for living the other parts of life desired, and the answer to that is personal debt is heavily tied up in the business and until the business is a profitable turnkey, it is hard to exit with out putting my personal financial position is a very tough spot. I think this may just be whining and really I signed up for this and therefore must see it through or not and what will happen will happen. Also, I did not honestly expect you to meaningfully ask about the difficulties I am experiencing in my professional life, though I am quite touched by it

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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Ilona » Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:57 am

Thank you for reply. Right, you say you experience time chronologically. But is that true? There seems to be continuity, there seems to be patterns that play out in time. But right here right now, this very moment is timeless. Time comes up as a image of what happened, as an image of what might happen. Check this now. What did you do yesterday at the same time?
How does the memory arise? What is felt? An image, thought, sensations, idea? Try again and watch. What did you do last night?

What do you notice? Where does the image show up? In the past or about the past?

Now think of the time you were 5 years old. What memories do you have?

Take a pause from reading and remember something from childhood. How does the memory show up? Describe what you see and how you perceive it, the mechanism of it.

Can you see that images about the past come up on demand in here now?



Thanks for sharing about your challenges in professional life. Feeling debt can be heavy and there may be many feelings about that. Do you want to explore this and see what gifts there are to be received here?

Love.

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Bohjaangles
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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Bohjaangles » Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:25 am

There seems to be continuity, there seems to be patterns that play out in time. But right here right now, this very moment is timeless. Time comes up as a image of what happened, as an image of what might happen. Check this now. What did you do yesterday at the same time?
Okay, that seems accurate, as there is a continuity, and patterns do play out and repeat. Yes, this time yesterday, I was visitng a friends house. I made a mental picutre trying to recall where I was this time yesterday and the first image that came up of yesterday was a snapshot of me being a the climbing gym, but then remembering that the gym closes at 10 PM and it is currenlty 11 PM and so what did I do after? oh yeah, I visited my friends house as it is in the area and talked with some people who are staying with that friend, and these were mostly images.
How does the memory arise? What is felt? An image, thought, sensations, idea? Try again and watch. What did you do last night?
It arises as a image or a series of images, and after the image appears, there is a feeling that comes up that is like "ahh, correct!" and then a feeling a remembering the rest takes place but not much more takes place as there are no additional movies or images.
What do you notice? Where does the image show up? In the past or about the past?
The image would be about the past as I do not believe myself to being going into the past to then see these images, they are about what what I remember happened, as it is if looking at a photo that was taken from my eyes at one or two spots at the climbing gym(when I walk into the main room, and where the moon board is) and same thing at friends house (similar images, one walking up onto his porch, and the second being inside his house looking at JVO)
Now think of the time you were 5 years old. What memories do you have?
Again, snapshots: one of looking down into the old familial living room with the TV in front of the sliding window door, images of my childhood friend, a view of the fort we routineley made, an image of what my bedroom looked like from standing at the door, there are more from around then but again, all images.
Take a pause from reading and remember something from childhood. How does the memory show up? Describe what you see and how you perceive it, the mechanism of it.
a picture just appears in the mind. this can trigger feelings, some around mood, some around certainty, some of surprise at having remembered or unforgetting something. a picture show up, not too much detail, like I wouldn't be able to zoom in, just enough parts for a narrative to be remembered or known again: like a room or some furniature which has a familiar feeling to it, perhaps a person or object that is critical to the memory, and then the narrative is known or not, and if known, it is known as a sequence of events or a short story.
Can you see that images about the past come up on demand in here now?
yes. at least in these examples. Not remembering something can happen, and the narrative can be relayed verbally but the picture and the feeling of certainty do not show up, or take a while to do so, but this may be separate from what we are looking at.
Thanks for sharing about your challenges in professional life. Feeling debt can be heavy and there may be many feelings about that. Do you want to explore this and see what gifts there are to be received here?
Certainly, the way you have worded that has me highly intrigued. how do we explore this?

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Ilona
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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Ilona » Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:28 am

Thank you for reply!
To sum up what have you learned about time from your own experience?

As for the debt. Find that feeling, how does it feel to be in debt? Where is that feeling? Is it ok for it to be here?
What comes up when you focus on that feeling?
When was the very first time you felt this?
Be completely open and honest about that feeling and see what you can find out!

Love.


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