No self inquiry

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Ilona
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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Ilona » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:15 am

Good work. Let’s face it. There is no separate self.
Here is bahyia sutra. Work with this, look at everything through this lens and write what you notice.

In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.
Since, Bahiya, there is for you
in the seen, only the seen,
in the heard, only the heard,
in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized,
and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that
indeed there is no thing there.
As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that
you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that,
nor in any place
between the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.


Love

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Bohjaangles
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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Bohjaangles » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:10 pm

Here is bahyia sutra. Work with this, look at everything through this lens and write what you notice.
Thanks! okay, I will work with this for next couple of days. I may not be able to make a meaningful post today as I am working a double shift, but I'll keep paying attention to what is going on and I I'll have more time tomorrow morning to post about what I notice

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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Ilona » Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:03 pm

Sure thing, write after a few days, when you have explored this.

Love.

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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Bohjaangles » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:29 pm

Hi Ilona,

Okay, So having taken the lens of the Bahiya Sutra to guide perception of reality for a while, I think some progress has been made, and here is a report:

sometimes it is very obvious that there is nothing, just exactly what is seen, felt, heard, and the thoughts that pass by. The story of me is just that, a story. Its an EXTEREMELY sticky story, that tries to work itself into everything. But is just story. There are thoughts of past stories, future stories, alternative past and possible future stories. All stories. They seem important and relevant, and then it is remembered that they are stories, and nothing more. Tools occasionally, but usually just feeling generators. Often times, still operating from a me perspective, probably by habit. I suppose there was an expectation of a shift in thinking that would be fundemental, and so far that has not really been noticed. Perhaps that expectation isnt realistic, either way I think I am close.

The most demonstrative experiement tried recently was moving a finger. It moved, where did the decision to move come from? locally? from ME? it just moved, and then moving all the limbs, they just move. No director, seeming director, but no, they just move. This is a terrible explanatation but was demonstrative.

Tis weird to think that there is no observer, that one still trips me up. As there is no separate observer, but awareness is there, and awareness can observe, but the distinction between awareness and a separate observer is tricky, although it might not be something to be understood, as much as "seen" or figured out or something along those lines.

I also am uncertain as I have thought about perhaps a pitfall or trap I may have fallen into where the idea of a separate me has taken on the belief of the self not existing, as some weird defense mechanism. Sometimes this doubt comes in. Other times, no, its rather clear there is only what is, but because there are other times of uncertainty, it is frustrating.

Still working a lot in terms of personal business, and quite busy. But this work we are doing here is very important, and it is often front of mind, so I will keep at it indefintely, until something finally clicks, hopefully sooner rather than later!

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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Ilona » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:32 am

Thank you for taking time to work with the sutra and your report.
Let’s look at what is this observer thingy.

It is language itself, that creates a subject out of nothing, so we get a doer. A doer of observing we call observer. But there is observing. Seeing, recognising, being aware - verbs. Seer, recogniser, awareness- nouns.
An observer is a label, that language puts on observing. Like a breather is a label put on breathing. See for yourself, do you need to be a breather for breathing to be happening? Do you need to be a seer for seeing to be happening? Do you need to be an observer for observing to be happening? Do you need to be a reader for reading to be happening? Do you need to be awareness for being aware? There is no awareness as a subject, there is being aware.

If you try to arrive logically that separate self does not exist, then yeah, it’s easy to get into a trap of using no self as a Defense mechanism. But if you see this, then what is there to defend? There is no Separate self = zero. Nada. No self does not replace a self. Like no-santa does not replace Santa, when it’s clear that Santa is fiction. Instead it is clear that santa never was a magical entity. So is this separate self thingy.

Here is an exercise for you. Do it here or on paper and tell me what you noticed. http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/05/labels.html

Love.

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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Bohjaangles » Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:53 am

It is language itself, that creates a subject out of nothing, so we get a doer. A doer of observing we call observer. But there is observing. Seeing, recognising, being aware - verbs. Seer, recogniser, awareness- nouns.
An observer is a label, that language puts on observing. Like a breather is a label put on breathing. See for yourself, do you need to be a breather for breathing to be happening? Do you need to be a seer for seeing to be happening? Do you need to be an observer for observing to be happening? Do you need to be a reader for reading to be happening? Do yo
Thank you, that was very helpul!
Here is an exercise for you. Do it here or on paper and tell me what you noticed
I did this, and surprisingly I didnt notice anything either way. Was late after crazy long work day tho, and same thing for today, so I will tackle this tomorrow evening during some scheduled off time and let you know what I find.

This reply is mostly to let you know I'm still working on it, and have not abandoned, though the last couple days have been difficult to put focused effort in cause of work. Tomorrow and this upcoming week is much lighter and progress will be made :)

Thanks for your patience with me and I really appreciate your support and guidance.

Talk tomorrow!

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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Ilona » Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:23 pm

Ok, my friend, take your time and do the exercise with full focus.

Love.

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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Bohjaangles » Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:12 am

Here is an exercise for you. Do it here or on paper and tell me what you noticed. http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/05/labels.html
So I did the writing exercize, and the second part in writing without self referential language was actually kind of difficult, not in that it didn't seem accurate, but as in english is such a possesive language! didnt notice too much tension either way. And then I did a modified version of this exercize: I went through half a day, using self referential dialogue and thinking from an I, me, mine perspective, and then for the second half of this day, I just moved through the day thinking from a what is perspective, and that was very different feeling. It felt lighter. Talking about no self is rather difficult, as I will referance myself, when talking to someone, even about the subject of no self.

Its rather obvious there isn't a grand organizer, even though it seems like it. memory is still used, and it seems like I am organizing, but there isn't an "I" I can really find to do any organizing. I can notice thoughts, and make decisions, but it isn't like those decisions aren't anything other than another thing to notice or be aware of. sometimes it is more clear than others. Driving is full of decisions, but the decisions are very obviosuly just happening, no Russel needed, sometimes there isn't even awareness of them. Planning out the upcoming week is kind of just a complex version of the same thing, although it feels like I am organizing, but then feels to who? there is just the feeling, and thoughts about it. There are decisions being made, deciding is happening, thinking is happening, but there isn't anything special about it. Is this it?

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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Ilona » Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:12 am

Yes yes yes.
It’s like taking the attention of the narrative about what is happening to the actual happening and being fully immersed in whatever is here. The narrative can continue and it does so by itself, only it’s no longer believed..
Here is my latest video to help to drive the point home. https://youtu.be/3mFsL9RvnS8

Thanks for doing the exercise and creating your own way of doing it.

Ok, how does it feel to see this? I know word “no self” it’s just a very lousy label and it not possible to put THIS into words, but I see that you see this.

Love.

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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Bohjaangles » Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:14 am

The narrative can continue and it does so by itself, only it’s no longer believed..
Ahhhhh, for some reason there was an expectation that the narrative would disolve once it was seen thorugh in a thorough enough way. Thank you for clarifying!
Ok, how does it feel to see this? I know word “no self” it’s just a very lousy label and it not possible to put THIS into words, but I see that you see this.
Mixed feelings. I suppose there was hope for more, but also the expectation wasn't really based in anything other than hopeful and magical thinking. There is some relief, as it does explain why change can be so slow to be brought forth in actual behavior, despite the knowledge about what behaviours are superior for various reasons than others. There is also some sadness along with that relief, but nothing that wont pass in what will probably a relatively short time. Hard to articulate why the sadness is there.

That video was quite nice, thank you. flow like water, a motto for many of the activities I really enjoy :)

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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Ilona » Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:35 am

Letting go of expectations and hope hurts and it is sad to realise that they are soap bubbles. And there is a stage of grieving, when the old is no longer making sense and the new is not fully clear. As you say, it will pass.

It’s good to remember to stay open in the not knowing and not expecting this to be something else.

Are there questions remaining? What is still unclear, confusing, paradoxical?
Is there any doubt? What does it say?

Love.

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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Bohjaangles » Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:21 am

Letting go of expectations and hope hurts and it is sad to realise that they are soap bubbles.
I don't think that is why I am sad, I think the sadness is for other poeple. As you said much earlier, something that never did exist can really be lost, the perspective can change, and if the perspective is more accurate, no sadness there. The world is a silly place.
Are there questions remaining? What is still unclear, confusing, paradoxical?
Is there any doubt? What does it say?
Took a few days to let things sink in. The story is very sticky, and the "i'ness is still a perspective often used, but can be remembered its not real when that is convenient.
If there is any doubts, I think it is just from the habits of thinking in that way for so long and using english as a language in thought which automatically assumes an I and ownership and that sort of thing, which is confusing sometimes, but usually not for long.
Sometimes there is a doubt of "is this it?" but again, that is likely due to ealrier expectations, probably like being struck by lightning or seeing code as in the film "the matrix" lol

Grateful for your work Ilona, and your patience and persistance in guiding me through this!

Is there a natural follow up or anything else?

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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Ilona » Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:08 pm

Thank you for sharing! When doubt comes just say yes, I agree, let’s doubt. It’s healthy to be sceptical and test ideas. I would not like for you to take on a new belief and then build illusions around that.
So doubt is welcome too!

Can you look back and tell me what you see as biggest difference from before we started this conversation? What hasn’t changed? What is The biggest surprise?
And is seeking still going strong?

Looking forward to hear from you!
Love

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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Bohjaangles » Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:28 am

Hi Ilona,

Sorry my responces are a couple days apart, work is pretty intense these days. Period of growth.
Can you look back and tell me what you see as biggest difference from before we started this conversation? What hasn’t changed? What is The biggest surprise?
Hmm, honestly there isn't too much different, other than often checking for a separate self and not finding anything, and the perspective provided. Little bit of relaxation around the edges, but not too much more than that has been noticed. The biggest surprise is how simple and direct it is, there is no separate self: I have heard this before but it was kind of meaningless, now it's like, oh yeah, those words directly. I guess the concept of a separate self was not flushed out before we started talking. What hasn't changed really is most things, though I thought there would be a major shift in thinking. This hasn't really happened, though it doesn't really come up much in a way. Like for most of what I am doing, it doesn't really matter if there is belief in a separate self or not. It's like believing the sun revolves around the earth, yeah, okay, empirically incorrect, but it doesn't actually change much.
And is seeking still going strong?
Yup, still seeking, though there has been some acceptance. It is definitely something I ponder while floating in a snesory deprivation tank which is a weekly habit.

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Re: No self inquiry

Postby Ilona » Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:48 am

Thank you for answer.
There is one thing to be looking for a separate self and not finding it and there is another thing to know that there is nothing to find, never was, never will be.
Like looking for a buggy man under the bed. Looking and not finding, but still thinking that maybe there is, maybe it is hiding, I need to look to see if it is there. And knowing that fear comes and it’s not because of a buggy man hiding. There is no buggy man. It’s impossible.

For a while there might be looking and not finding. But there comes a point of knowing that separate self is impossible.
Nothing changes, all goes as it did, there never was a me in charge of a separate piece of life. Life goes on. By itself. See the difference?

And what are you seeking for? Precisely?

Love.


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