No self inquiry

[Bohjaangles]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the narrative and character of an individual is made up and that there are a bunch of assumptions about what the self is that are fallacious and I suspect that "I" is just a point of referance

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to explore the topic of no self and find out how accurate my understanding of it is, and if I'm off the mark; learning something new. This particular sentence is here just to get inna bunch of required characters.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to share some personal experience and perspective, and to receive a reply that affirms to what extent my perspective is accurate with the concept of no self and some questions to be posed that suggest I looking at things from a different angle or cut through some BS defenses I didn't know were there

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Been doing the Hyatt work, been to a single 10 day vipassana, run a float tank center and floated many times in a sensory deprivation tank, correspondence and inquiry work with mentor

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Bohjaangles]

Since writing my inital application in finding a guide, I have read some of the gateless gate crashers and talked with some friends who have realized no self. I think I would like to update my answers to the form:

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to explore the topic of no self and find out how accurate my understanding of it is, and if I'm off the mark; learning something new. This particular sentence is here just to get inna bunch of required characters.

So instead of that, I am looking for some guidance in realizing that there is no self.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to share some personal experience and perspective, and to receive a reply that affirms to what extent my perspective is accurate with the concept of no self and some questions to be posed that suggest I looking at things from a different angle or cut through some BS defenses I didn't know were there

Instead of expecting a reply that affirms how close I am, I expect to have some questions posed to me and exorcises given that are intended to help me be able to realize that there is no self, and see it plainly.


The rest is still same

[Ilona]

Hi Bohjaangles.

Welcome to The forum. :)
Let’s have a chat and see where this takes you.

When you say, you want to be guided to realise that there is no self, what do you expect that this realisation should look like? What benefits do you expect from seeing no self?
What you do not want to happen?

Can you expand and write as much as you like, but with whole honesty.

Thank you.

[Bohjaangles]

Thank you Ilona :)

When you say, you want to be guided to realise that there is no self, what do you expect that this realisation should look like?

[Bohjaangles]

Sorry, doing this on mobile with sketchy internet, accidently posted something unfinished. Anyways, I'll quote properly when I am back on a PC.

I expect this realization to be a certainty. Sort of like when there are two pictures hidden in one, and you only see the one clearly and someone tells you there is a second perspective to look at the picture from and after squinting, and rotating it, you eventually see it and it's obvious. I expect it to be like or look like that.

The benefits I expect is a relaxation, and a more accurate perspective to move through the world from that is less tied up in made up ways.

What I do not want to happen? I am unsure how to answer this, as I am not afraid of anything related to no self realization as far as I can tell, I do not assume my life or relationships or anything will fall apart. I am excited to be able to go through this process!

Thank you for getting back to me in this way! I wanted to be part of the live event, but the time zone differences made it difficult with some other obligations I had going.

[Ilona]

Wonderful. Thank you for answers. You sound ready. :)
Ok, so let’s start.

Tell me, what comes up for you, how the body reacts, when you hear this:

There is no separate self at all, there never was, there is no i as a doer, experiencer, manager, witness, thinker, feeler, perceiver of life. There is nothing apart form life happening.

What is your immediate reaction?

Love.

[Bohjaangles]

As far as the body goes, nothing much, I noticed I checked for a tightness of belly, and maybe a minor tightness happened, but is subtle if at all. Did a quick body scan and no sensations out of the ordinary.

My immediate reaction is to look at/highlight the things I have a hard time realizing or believing. These were perceiver, feeler, witness, experiencer. I have grown up perceiving the world from the perspective of existing behind my eyes and in the head of my body, and sensations and thoughts coming in and out of that nexus. That i don't exist and that there is no perceiver seems to not make sense with my experience, or at least how I have filtered it and interpreted it. I have looked at that spot I have referanced, "behind the eyes and in the head of my body" and there is nothing special about that spot, other than its an area close to a lot of bodily stimuli (sight, smell, hearing, taste, touch) and although I can see I made assumptions about that, and assumptions supported by my language and culture, it doesn't seem to be nonsensical to me to referance an I, an organizer and thinker and all those other things you are telling me do not exist.

[Ilona]

Thank you!
So is that sensation behind the eyes a perceiver of life or is it perceived, just like other sensations? Is life happening to that sensation or as that sensation?
Is that sensation separate from life happening? Is it here by itself, on its own, disconnected from the whole, looking at life from outside?

Look very closely, where is the i? Is it a thought, a feeling, a sensation? How do you know that there is I? Is it here now?

Love

[Bohjaangles]

Hallo! back into civilization and internet access!

So is that sensation behind the eyes a perceiver of life or is it perceived, just like other sensations? Is life happening to that sensation or as that sensation?

lol so I initially wrote "hmm, Whats the difference? perceiver of life vs just perceived, seem to amuont to same thing, just one infers a separate thing to look at it, while the other is just looking at it" but I suspect thats exactly what you are driving at. okay, so it is just perceived. Bodily awareness can focus on that, in the same way that bodily awareness can focus on looking at something in the distance or the feeling of cold when touching ice, the focus can be on how vision seems to be from the eyes and hearing from the ears and its impression of how close together thse two are(inches apart from two of the most responded to senses). I suppose life is happpening in conjunction with this sensation not towards or as this sensation.

Is that sensation separate from life happening? Is it here by itself, on its own, disconnected from the whole, looking at life from outside?

no, the sensation does not seem separate from life happening, I can focus on that sensation, but other things are still hapenning, time does not stand still and wait. It kind of seems like it is on its own though, as my friend cannot see from behind my eyes, or think my thoughts. I can be aware of something and it causes a great feeling to happen, and that can seem to happen in isolation while there are plenty of other people around who supposedly saw the same thing (made up example), so in that way, it seems to be a loenly ivory tower of private sensation.

Look very closely, where is the i? Is it a thought, a feeling, a sensation? How do you know that there is I? Is it here now?

The I is the culmination of this meatbag reffered to as Russel. The partnership of meat, bone, feelings, thoughts, and senses. My toe nails are part of the I, but sometimes I cut those off and am not too worried about it, and they are then no longer part of the I. If my eyes were cut out, I would certainly be worried about that, but they would no longer be part of the I. things I eat become part of the I, I excrete things that the I no longer needs (sorry, just being thorough here), and they are no longer a part of the I. The thoughts are part of the I, and they disappear into nowhere, so are very temporarily part of the I, and writing this out seems silly, okay. Yeah, okay, so thoughts and feelings are very temporary and don't really get housed anywhere and I cannot point to them when they have passed, if I even can when they are currently going on. But I can sometimes think thoughts I have previously thought of again, so they are stored somewhere? I don't really know how the brain works and I suspect I probably do not have to for no self realization. I am not sure I know there is an I, I suspect there is as what else is keeping this hot mess going? and consistantly? with a similar flavour or whatever. Like I am pretty skilled at some things, and pretty terrible at other things, and this isn't random but actually rather predictable, although with effort I can usually improve my skill at something, and this could be viewed as a timneline rather chronalogically. I guess this thought tunnel isn't doing much, so, please, do you see what I am tripping over or what imaginary rock I cannot see past?

[Ilona]

Thank you for answer. Let’s dig deeper. I mean, please focus on the experience that is happening right here right now. Not in theories or explanations, but in actuality.

I suppose life is happpening in conjunction with this sensation not towards or as this sensation.

Nope. You are saying that there are two things happening in conjunction. A sensation and life. :) how can that be? Are some sensations life and others outside of life? By life I mean the experience that is happening right here right now.

Here is a video for you.
https://youtu.be/-3BN8N1xBKk

Hope it will make things clearer. Write what thoughts, feelings body sensations come up after watching this.

Love.

[Bohjaangles]

Thank you for patience and persistance

Write what thoughts, feelings body sensations come up after watching this.

OKay, so body sensations were mostly either a minor tension or tingly around the face. also breathing sensations.
Feelings were frustration, impatience, and desire
Thoughts are okay, it makes sense, I can test it and yeah, there is what is going on now, me typing on my keyboard, and thoughts happening about it. The story created the character and that checks out. I want to take off the glasses, I can test and look, and check and see, and what you are claiming seems to be accurate. I also had the thought that perhaps I have to check and see over and over again, in seemingly unique ways or at least get some reps in on checking, as if the self is something that has a monopoly on perspective and wants to fight for its claim, and (I?) just have to keep testing and watching the self be disproved over and over again before I can take off the glasses in a way that I can actually see without them.

Nope. You are saying that there are two things happening in conjunction. A sensation and life. :) how can that be? Are some sensations life and others outside of life? By life I mean the experience that is happening right here right now.

Hmm, I think I meant like "the rest of the world" but yeah, okay, I can only really experience the rest of the world in as much as I can sense it, and all that sensing is life, and so life is happening as that sensation

[Ilona]

and over again, in seemingly unique ways or at least get some reps in on checking, as if the self is something that has a monopoly on perspective and wants to fight for its claim, and (I?) just have to keep testing and watching the self be disproved over and over again before I can take off the glasses in a way that I can actually see without them.

Yes, that’s right, it takes looking again and again from all different angles and all different situations to see that I is empty. The seeing can only be happening in the present moment, so looking and seeing is ever fresh. It’s like looking at an optical illusion, the illusion does not disappear, It is known that this is an illusion. And once it is seen, it can not be unknown.

There is no self to claim anything, there is no self fighting, there is no I to take glasses off. How does this land?

Yes, life is made of sensations :) another way to say it is life is awareness of sensations.
Here is another video for you. https://youtu.be/LXrfQqvwIcU See how words point to what is underneath all words.

Take your time, explore and write what you notice.
Love

[Bohjaangles]

There is no self to claim anything, there is no self fighting, there is no I to take glasses off. How does this land?

it lands like hitting a wall. Its like, oh yeah...right. okay, It's like I am trying to get myself to see or understand something, and the obvious flaw is that there is no self to realize anything. there is just realization, which is kind if like a cop-out of linguistics if nothing changes, but progress takes its time and persistance will be my focus for the next bit. I am mostly putting a lot of thought or effort into this pretty late at night right now as that synchs up our time difference a bit, though I am thinking progress will be quicker if I look frequently throughout the day, and not just in evenings. go all in, as it were, instead of going casual. Look often, challenge and test often, and see what comes up.

Yes, life is made of sensations :) another way to say it is life is awareness of sensations.

This is something I can be aware of and sit with for periods of time, late at night as I ponder and struggle with this work, it is obvious and there is nothing else, just sensations and awareness of them, thoughts coming up and awareness of them, thoughts about thoughts, awareness of those. All the while I am sitting there wiating for something to happen or change for me, and the obvious flaw in that. It's kind of frustrating, and that's okay, if it is part of the process this time, so be it. It's as if there is something not yet learned. Like trying to multiply 3X3 and getting 6, doing it again, and receiving the same result, addition is whats known, multiplication is foreign and also the goal.

[Ilona]

Let’s make this easier. Looking = noticing what is here now. You don’t need to sit and struggle with this. It’s available through the day, doing all kinds of activities and tasks. Having a shower, cooking, walking, working- just normal ordinary things! Noticing what is present does not require you to do anything in particular. Relax into this. Soften. Be kind to yourself. Take it easy, and look, what is here now?

You cannot see an absence of a separate self, same way as you can not see an absence of a unicorn in the room. Look around, do you see an absence of a unicorn? Can you see an absence of a Mickey mouse? No, there is nothing to see. Separate self is like a unicorn. Not possible to see.

So instead of looking for something imagined or for the absence of imagined, look at what is real. What IS?

There is experiencing, being, breathing, seeing, sitting, reading, blinking... happening. It’s not a linguistic cop-out, but an invitation to see the flow of appearances, flow of life as sensations, flow of happenings as they show up.

Waiting for something to happen. What are you waiting for? It’s already here, waiting for you to notice. Here now is the only place to look.

What do you see? Describe.

Love

[Bohjaangles]

You cannot see an absence of a separate self, same way as you can not see an absence of a unicorn in the room

Right, good point, that is surprisingly helpful, thank you for reminding

What do you see? Describe.

Walking, moving around, turning door knobs, tlaking to other people, thoughts happening, feelings about things, cravings. The internal dialogue and the feeling of Russel behind the wheel isn't necessary, as walking around and making sudden movements and such and even decisions doesn't seem to require anything, it can just happen, there is a decision, and there can be feelings that motivate certain actions, like feeling hungry and then walking to the fridge for a solution to that.

I am putting effort into trying to catch thoughts with self referntial dialogue in my head and then quickly checking for a self in that moment, have yet to find one, or at least anything other than a nexus of awareness. Having written that, I looked for that nexus, and there doesn't seem to be a point for it, like seeing takes place, feeling can be somewhere else, maybe the nexus is as large as my body, but I kind of meant something different when I wrote that initially. hmm. Well I'll keep cracking at it and welcome further proddings and exorcises

Awarness of thoughts is kind of weird, sort of like feelings, where are they? I have a hard time thinking "from" my foot, they feel like they are in my head, but upon examination, dialogue based thoughts seem to be felt or orginating from the ears, but that could just be habit of dialogue being heard and therefore the dialogue thoughts are mimicing the place external dialogue is commonly heard, where the mind movies "take place" in around the eyes.