Emptiness

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Gerd
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Re: Emptiness

Postby Gerd » Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:43 pm

Hi Aragon,
Where is this feeling? Can you find it to within an inch? Does this feeling know anything about a 'center' or an 'I'. Can a feeling know anything at all?
I would say it’s in the upper chest area with the size of a hand /palm. No, a feeling cannot know anything at all.
What is the difference between a 'clear' and an 'unclear' experience? Can 'clear' and 'unclear' be found in AE or are these just thought (labels) about experience?
A clear experience (touch, sound, taste…) can be found in AE. An unclear experience is a feeling like feeling lost, feeling happy, feeling tired…
Now compare the sensation of the soles of the feet and the sensations of your hands...what is the difference between them?
Thought would say one is a little more ‘intense’, but apart from that – any difference?
The sensation of the soles is a continuous (almost not changing) feeling. The sensation of the hands is intense at the beginning and loses the intensity over the time. So it’s a kind of a changing feeling.
This is just another thought about what happens - possibility or no possibility are just concepts or ideas about something. And it does not answer the question. The question asks what says there has to be a reason for something to happen? Why the need to allocate a reason?
Ok., I think I understood now. ‘Reason’ is a thought. So happening just happens without reason.
Isn't 'when it doesn’t matter what I choose or if I don’t know what to choose' also a thought that comes in after the choice is made? Cannot a thought also come in before an action and say, 'I am going to choose'.
I agree, ‘when it doesn’t matter…..’ is a thought. Yes, normally a thought comes in before the action saying ‘I’m going to choose’.
Did you find an "I" when doing the looking? If not, then what is it exactly that is choosing? Something is happening (that we call/label 'choosing'), but can you find anyone or anything that is doing the choosing?
No, I didn’t find an I when doing the looking. I don’t know what is doing the choosing. I cannot find anything that is doing the choosing. But…. if I’m e.g. buying a pair of shoes I have the choices size, colour, money, comfort….. So after balancing everything I choose pair A and I know thinking was involved. So how can I buy/choose just any pair of shoes (without thinking)?
You could go stand at the top of that hill and try and decide you are not going to choose for 24 hours. See if a choice is made :) Let me know what happens... ;)
So, what you mean is that not choosing is also a choice? ;)

Thank You, Gerd

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Aragon
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Re: Emptiness

Postby Aragon » Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:00 am

Hi Gerd,

thanks for your reply......
Where is this feeling? Can you find it to within an inch? Does this feeling know anything about a 'center' or an 'I'. Can a feeling know anything at all?
I would say it’s in the upper chest area with the size of a hand /palm. No, a feeling cannot know anything at all.

Yes, a feeling does not know anything. Thought 'says' the sensation felt is about a 'center', but the sensation is just a sensation. Really explore this. Be with the sensation. Sink into it. See it for what it is free of thought.


Now compare the sensation of the soles of the feet and the sensations of your hands...what is the difference between them? Thought would say one is a little more ‘intense’, but apart from that – any difference?
The sensation of the soles is a continuous (almost not changing) feeling. The sensation of the hands is intense at the beginning and loses the intensity over the time. So it’s a kind of a changing feeling.

Does the sensation itself suggest it anyway it is different? Is it still not simply a sensation even if the word 'intense' arises? What does the word 'intense' point to in AE?


This is just another thought about what happens - possibility or no possibility are just concepts or ideas about something. And it does not answer the question. The question asks what says there has to be a reason for something to happen? Why the need to allocate a reason?
Ok., I think I understood now. ‘Reason’ is a thought. So happening just happens without reason.

Yes, but you need to SEE this. It's a bit like when it rains, we may have a whole explanation about why that happens. Someone in a remote amazon tribe somewhere might have a completely different explanation. These are just ideas about what is happening. Does the tree know anything about the reason for rain? Or the cloud?

Watch how the mind seeks to overlay these stories on what's happening. What would life be like without these stories? Would it cease to happen? Watch out the window for 10 minutes. Notice the stories you tell about what's happening.


Isn't 'when it doesn’t matter what I choose or if I don’t know what to choose' also a thought that comes in after the choice is made? Cannot a thought also come in before an action and say, 'I am going to choose'.
I agree, ‘when it doesn’t matter…..’ is a thought. Yes, normally a thought comes in before the action saying ‘I’m going to choose’.

Yes, normally a thought comes in before the action saying ‘I’m going to choose’."

So what? Can you find the thinker of thought? Are you doing the thinking or are thoughts just appearing?


Did you find an "I" when doing the looking? If not, then what is it exactly that is choosing? Something is happening (that we call/label 'choosing'), but can you find anyone or anything that is doing the choosing?
No, I didn’t find an I when doing the looking. I don’t know what is doing the choosing. I cannot find anything that is doing the choosing. But…. if I’m e.g. buying a pair of shoes I have the choices size, colour, money, comfort….. So after balancing everything I choose pair A and I know thinking was involved. So how can I buy/choose just any pair of shoes (without thinking)?

Okay so thought was there. But did thought 'choose' the number or just appear?

Think of a number between 1 and 20. Notice how it arrives. Did you choose that answer? Or did it just appear?


Try watching this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwjD4hfrDsg

Are you the thinker of thought. Are you actually choosing the thoughts that are seemingly choosing which number or city to 'choose'?


You could go stand at the top of that hill and try and decide you are not going to choose for 24 hours. See if a choice is made :) Let me know what happens... ;)
So, what you mean is that not choosing is also a choice? ;)

Yes, not choosing can be a choice, but my point was that if you do this, a decision will be made. To go this way or that. To give up and go home. A decision will be made, followed by a reason/thought why it was okay to make that decision, and a thought about how you are in control.

It's like if you decide to sit still for 3 hours on a chair. Does that happen?

Wishing you well,

Aragon.
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Gerd
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Re: Emptiness

Postby Gerd » Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:22 pm

Hi Aragon,
Does the sensation itself suggest it anyway it is different? Is it still not simply a sensation even if the word 'intense' arises? What does the word 'intense' point to in AE?
The word ‘intense’ points to thought.
Watch how the mind seeks to overlay these stories on what's happening. What would life be like without these stories? Would it cease to happen? Watch out the window for 10 minutes. Notice the stories you tell about what's happening.
Ok., I see what you mean and I’m so used to the stories.
So what? Can you find the thinker of thought? Are you doing the thinking or are thoughts just appearing?
I cannot find a thinker. Thoughts are just appearing.
Okay so thought was there. But did thought 'choose' the number or just appear?
This is a very good question! I think I understood now: So there was thought and it’s ok. when there is thought. But thought did not do the choosing. Choosing just happened.
Think of a number between 1 and 20. Notice how it arrives. Did you choose that answer? Or did it just appear?
The number just appeared.
Are you the thinker of thought. Are you actually choosing the thoughts that are seemingly choosing which number or city to 'choose'?
Thoughts are just appearing and choosing just happens.
It's like if you decide to sit still for 3 hours on a chair. Does that happen?
The decision is to sit still for 3 hours. As I cannot do this I’ll change the decision and move before.

Thank You, Gerd

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Aragon
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Re: Emptiness

Postby Aragon » Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:36 pm

Hi Gerd,

Nice looking, until the last question.

It's like if you decide to sit still for 3 hours on a chair. Does that happen?
The decision is to sit still for 3 hours. As I cannot do this I’ll change the decision and move before.

Can you see you have not done this in your experience and that you are answering from ideas about what would happen? I was actually serious, why not try and do this and just watch what happens. Is a decision made not to continue? How does that happen?

Can you find anyone who is making decisions or are decisions, like choices simply happening?

And what is the difference between a choice and a decision in your experience?


Speak soon,

Aragon
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Gerd
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Re: Emptiness

Postby Gerd » Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:40 pm

Hi Aragon,
Can you see you have not done this in your experience and that you are answering from ideas about what would happen?
I see, I was answering from ideas/thoughts.
I was actually serious, why not try and do this and just watch what happens. Is a decision made not to continue? How does that happen?
I started doing this sitting. There were thoughts like ‘3 hours is a long time, I cannot do this, it’s boring……’ After about 20 min. I stopped. So there was the decision not to continue. The decision just appeared.
Can you find anyone who is making decisions or are decisions, like choices simply happening?
I cannot find anyone who is making decisions. Decisions just happen.
And what is the difference between a choice and a decision in your experience?
Choosing is when you have many options (e.g. choose one out of ten). Decision is more like yes/no: I go or don’t go, I buy or don’t buy.

Thank You, Gerd

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Aragon
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Re: Emptiness

Postby Aragon » Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:19 pm

Hi Gerd,

Thanks for your answers.....

And what is the difference between a choice and a decision in your experience?
Choosing is when you have many options (e.g. choose one out of ten). Decision is more like yes/no: I go or don’t go, I buy or don’t buy.

'Choice' and 'decision' are both AE of thought. There is no difference. The actual experience of thought isn't any different just because the content of the thought is different.

Is this clear?


How are you feeling about everything so far? Do you have any questions? Is there anything you are unclear about?


Wishing you well,

Aragon
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Gerd
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Re: Emptiness

Postby Gerd » Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:13 pm

Hi Aragon,
Is this clear?
Yes it’s clear that choice and decision are thoughts.
How are you feeling about everything so far? Do you have any questions? Is there anything you are unclear about?
I have the feeling that everything is slowly sinking in. It needs it’s time. So sometimes I’m clear about something and think ‘I got it’. But the next day I’m back to the old thinking and don’t find the ‘entrance’ again. So I read the passages again and again until it’s getting clear. So it’s a kind of forward and backward. But in general I think I’m on the right track.

Thank You for Your guidance and the effort You put into this!
Gerd

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Aragon
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Re: Emptiness

Postby Aragon » Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:47 am

Hi Gerd,

Thanks for your honesty.....

I would suggest that you now spend some time reading this thread from the beginning carefully, and redo the exercises you feel a pull to do, and then to report back what insights etc you get from rereading the thread & redoing any exercises....

Please take all the time you need - to re-read it thoroughly...and to redo exercises as needed.

Please feel free to update me whenever it feels right.

Look forward to hearing from you,

Aragon
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Gerd
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Re: Emptiness

Postby Gerd » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:13 pm

Hi Aragon,

so I will reread the thread and keep you informed whenever it feels right.

Thank You, Gerd

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Aragon
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Re: Emptiness

Postby Aragon » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:09 am

Hi Gerd,

Great, speak soon,

Aragon
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Gerd
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Re: Emptiness

Postby Gerd » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:56 pm

Hi Aragon,

I’m still here and everything is ok. :-). I still do the rereading and redoing of the exercises in the thread. There are no new insights but it feels like deepening the insights of the thread. The old habits of thinking are very strong and the rereading really helps to find the way back to the new track.

There is one question: There is no one who is choosing and choice is just a thought. So it’s meanwhile clear to me that there is no choice. It’s not so clear for me that there is no ‘I’. Yesterday it occurred to me: if there is no choice than there cannot be an ‘I’. I cannot see the connection but can you say anything here?

Thank You, Gerd

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Aragon
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Re: Emptiness

Postby Aragon » Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:36 am

Hi Gerd,

Good to hear from you :)

There is one question: There is no one who is choosing and choice is just a thought. So it’s meanwhile clear to me that there is no choice. It’s not so clear for me that there is no ‘I’. Yesterday it occurred to me: if there is no choice than there cannot be an ‘I’. I cannot see the connection but can you say anything here?

So this is the question :) If there is no choice...no one choosing as choice is simply happening...then what is it exactly that would need choices?

Look at the story of "I am choosing to eat chocolate ice-cream instead of vanilla"? We can see the 'I' written there in thought / in the narrative. But can we find it outside of that....?

Look in your direct actual experience now and see if you can find an "I". Really look, try to pinpoint what you are referring to when you say, 'I chose....' ... It's not about understanding it, but trying to find it. Really look.

Where is it located, what does it look like?

Is there anyone that is actually even having ice-cream? What is the AE of eating icecream?


Wishing you well,

Aragon
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Gerd
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Re: Emptiness

Postby Gerd » Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:33 pm

Hi Aragon,
So this is the question :) If there is no choice...no one choosing as choice is simply happening...then what is it exactly that would need choices?
If choice is simply happening then no one/nothing would need a choice. But if there is no choice, does it mean there is no I?
Look at the story of "I am choosing to eat chocolate ice-cream instead of vanilla"? We can see the 'I' written there in thought / in the narrative. But can we find it outside of that....?
If choosing just happened without an ‘I’, can we say that there is no ‘I’?
Look in your direct actual experience now and see if you can find an "I". Really look, try to pinpoint what you are referring to when you say, 'I chose....' ... It's not about understanding it, but trying to find it. Really look.
Where is it located, what does it look like?
No, I cannot pinpoint an ‘I’, I cannot find an 'I'. We also had this in the exercise where I felt the ‘I’ in the chestarea. And a feeling doesn’t know anything.
Is there anyone that is actually even having ice-cream?
If I refer to the exercise ‘an apple cannot be known’ than nothing can be known and ‘anyone’ cannot be known also. So no one can have an icecream.
What is the AE of eating icecream?
The AE of eating icecream is taste.

Thank You, Gerd

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Aragon
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Re: Emptiness

Postby Aragon » Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:24 am

Hi Gerd,

Good to hear from you....

You cannot find an I but the 'mind' keeps asking if there is an 'I'...

How long do you want to go down the route of listening to that thought?

How about:

Rather than asking me if there is an 'I', try to prove to me that there is one.Show it to me.


Close your eyes and imagine holding a watermelon in your hands.

Imagine it so vividly that it seems as if you can feel its weight, the shape and texture of the skin. Hold it there, sensing it.

Then open your eyes.

What happened to the melon?
How about the sensation that was so believable?
Was there ever a melon in ‘reality’?
Was there an appearing mental image?
Was the content of the mental image (the melon) ‘real’?

What is the difference between the imagined melon and 'Gerd'?
If there are any differences, what are they?
Can these differences be found in your direct actual experience?


Wishing you well,

Aragon
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Gerd
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Re: Emptiness

Postby Gerd » Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:10 pm

Hi Aragon,
How long do you want to go down the route of listening to that thought?
I agree, that’s exactly what is happening! So in a way this thought is coming in through the back door. Ok., so what can be done? Just saying ‘an I cannot be found, so there is no I’.
Rather than asking me if there is an 'I', try to prove to me that there is one. Show it to me.
I cannot prove it, I cannot show it.
What happened to the melon?
There is no melon. The melon was just imagined (thought).
How about the sensation that was so believable?
There is no sensation about the melon any more.
Was there ever a melon in ‘reality’?
No, there was never a melon in reality.
Was there an appearing mental image?
Yes, there was a mental image.
Was the content of the mental image (the melon) ‘real’?
The content of the mental image was not real.
What is the difference between the imagined melon and 'Gerd'?
If there are any differences, what are they?
Can these differences be found in your direct actual experience?
The imagined melon is a face value of thought with an imagined content. With Gerd there are AE’s of colour, smell, taste, sound, sensation.

Thank You, Gerd


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