Where else is it hiding?

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cojetoto
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby cojetoto » Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:26 pm

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for the link to your blog post. It’s interesting connection of seeking and seeker!

I continued the exercise during the day. I do not have anything new or interesting to write. Was a bit tired today. I will continue tomorrow.

Thanks,
Peter

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Vivien
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby Vivien » Sat Oct 03, 2020 4:09 am

All right. Have a nice weekend :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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cojetoto
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby cojetoto » Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:02 pm

Hi Vivien,

I’m continuing and will make it a regular practice.
At this point I have no questions. I know what to do.

Thanks for your guidance and hope you are having a great weekend :),
Peter

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Vivien
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby Vivien » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:26 am

All right. Please write me in a few days how things go.
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Vivien
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby Vivien » Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:49 am

Hi Peter,

How things are going?
Is it clear that the show is going on by itself?
Is it clear that the separate self is a myth?
Is there any doubt?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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cojetoto
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby cojetoto » Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:23 pm

Hi Vivien,

thanks for checking!
How things are going?
when the day is not so busy, I'm practicing noticing thoughts. When the day is busy (because of work or family) it's harder. It did not get much better over last few days, but I will keep practicing. Also I'm practicing some concentration meditation to calm down body and thinking, to make this easier. I would say that one single biggest change is that there is no seeking anymore. However I still would like to refine some skills.
Is it clear that the show is going on by itself?
I have no doubt about it, although it's not all time seen, but when looked closely it is seen.
Is it clear that the separate self is a myth?
I have no doubt about this. However that seeing is not easily accessible.
Is there any doubt?
There is no doubt.

Thanks, Peter

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Vivien
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby Vivien » Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:53 am

Hi Peter,
when the day is not so busy, I'm practicing noticing thoughts. When the day is busy (because of work or family) it's harder. It did not get much better over last few days, but I will keep practicing. Also I'm practicing some concentration meditation to calm down body and thinking, to make this easier. I would say that one single biggest change is that there is no seeking anymore. However I still would like to refine some skills.
It's important to mention here, that seeing through the self is not about perfecting any skills. It’s not even about constantly being aware of thoughts. It’s not about trying to be present.

The exercise of being aware of thoughts is just a stool, and not the end goal. It’s just a tool to help with investigation.
But if you focus on trying to perfect it, then it becomes a quest on behalf of a self. I’m the one who needs to be good at it, since I’m going to gain or achieve something one day, because of it.

This could become the same trap as meditation. It becomes and end goal to be good at it, or to achieve something by it.
But in order to see that there is no separate self here now controlling and governing life doesn’t come by being a good meditator or to be good at observing thoughts.

These are just tools that could help, but not the thing, the realization itself.
So make sure that you don’t fall into this trap.

You don’t have to practice meditation for years in order to realize that there is nothing separate form life.
It’s ALREADY here and readily available.
It’s here now, in this very moment waiting for you to recognize it, moment by moment.
I have no doubt about this. However that seeing is not easily accessible.
If it’s not easily accessible, if it doesn’t come naturally in your everyday life, then there is more work to do.
The self probably hasn’t been seen fully, so it’s need to be investigated more deeply.

So I’m going to give you more pointers. Please make sure that you incorporate looking into your daily life.

Another trap that meditators often fall into is that they create a huge gap between meditation and everyday life. They might be able to get into all sort of pleasant states, and yet, they still live their everyday life as if nothing has really changed, still from the viewpoint of a separate self, who is thinking, feeling, deciding, in short, governing life.

So in the midst of your everyday life, look about 100 times again and again in a day, relentlessly and investigate:

Is this current thought being thought by someone? By a thinker? Where is this thinker, right now?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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cojetoto
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby cojetoto » Fri Oct 09, 2020 7:47 pm

Hi Vivien,
These are just tools that could help, but not the thing, the realization itself.
So make sure that you don’t fall into this trap.
Thanks, yes I do realize that.
Is this current thought being thought by someone? By a thinker? Where is this thinker, right now?
I have quite busy week, but I do continue and when I do deliberate investigation it's not that hard to see. Will continue practise.

Peter

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Vivien
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby Vivien » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:12 am

Hi Peter,
I have quite busy week, but I do continue and when I do deliberate investigation it's not that hard to see. Will continue practise.
Please look for the one that need a practice.

What is it here now that is in need of a practice?

And what does the practice is needed for?
Is there something missing in this very moment, so a practice is needed to find something in the future?

What is it exactly that is practicing?
And what for? What is the goal?
And more importantly, WHO needs a goal?

Is there someone here separate from this moment as it is?

And this someone need a practice to find something or attain something in the future?
Where is the person that is in need of a practice?

Is there a fragment separate from life that needs to practice to be life?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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cojetoto
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby cojetoto » Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:38 pm

Hi Vivien,

thank you. I'm trying to look every day = practising. There is still "me" and I'd like to stay with the question you suggested before:
Is this current thought being thought by someone? By a thinker? Where is this thinker, right now?
This seems productive. I'm not able to keep the question above on mind during the day and ask 100 times. It's just way too busy during the day because of meetings and family. But I'm trying.

Also last few days I was struggling. There are thoughts like this is not leading anywhere and I have not seen anything in fact and some aversion and thus there is a lot of frustration and irritation.

Thanks,
Peter

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Vivien
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:22 am

Hi Peter,
There are thoughts like this is not leading anywhere and I have not seen anything in fact and some aversion and thus there is a lot of frustration and irritation.
You can investigate this too.

Do you that you will ever get this?
Do you think that you will be able to see that there is no separate self?
Who would see it, the fictional Peter-character?
Can Batman see that he is just a fiction?

Aren’t just thoughts pretending to be a me who hasn’t seen anything and now is frustrated and irritated?
But is there an actual me here being frustrated and irritated?

Frustration is there, sure, but is there a me being frustrated?

Or being frustrated or irritated just a ‘play of life’, how life shows up in this moment, but to no-one?
thank you. I'm trying to look every day = practising. There is still "me" and I'd like to stay with the question you suggested before:
Dear Peter, by not investigating the questions I gave you before, you are just perpetuating the notion of a self who is in power, and does the practice.
All those questions are targeting this belief, that there is a Peter doing any practice.

As long as you look for a thinker, you miss something very important.
You miss investigating the one that is looking for a thinker.
Hence the belief in the self stays intact.

So please go back, and look with those questions, and also with these newer ones.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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cojetoto
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby cojetoto » Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:46 pm

Hi Vivien,

I had to take a break for a few days. Accept that anger and frustration. I hope it is OK and we can continue together.
What is it here now that is in need of a practice?
There is a thought about need of practise with believe this will change something in future. In this moment there is no entity with the need.
And what does the practice is needed for?
There is a thought that situation will be different in future. Somehow easier.
Is there something missing in this very moment, so a practice is needed to find something in the future?
When I look and see this moment - experience and thoughts appearing - it is just that. There is no need right now, this moment is as is. I can see there can be a thought of doing something to remove future suffering.
What is it exactly that is practicing?
This body is practising. This organism :).
And what for? What is the goal?
Like I mentioned there is a thought that habit can be created which will make something easier in future.
And more importantly, WHO needs a goal?
When I look in this moment I see "me" only in thoughts and cannot find any believe in that "me". It seems clear, but it is like rollercoaster. Some days are vey busy in work and family, I do not sleep well and enough and then attention is absorbed in thoughts, confused. Last days I tried computer app, which interrupts my workday every 15 minutes for a minute. I used that minute to look here and now, are there thoughts, what is going on right now? That helped with clarity of seeing thoughts and experiencing and the silence around those.
Is there someone here separate from this moment as it is?
Right now, can't find anyone.
And this someone need a practice to find something or attain something in the future?
There is a thought about need and benefits of practise. In this moment I do not see thought about "owning this thought". It's just floating around.
Where is the person that is in need of a practice?
Not here.
Is there a fragment separate from life that needs to practice to be life?
No separate fragment, but there are thoughts about how this life can be better, by calming down, exercising more etc.
Do you that you will ever get this?
I'm not sure who got it. But something is to be changed so this effort has any affect, any impact. Part of this life process is going to change, lose some misbelieve and stops creating some suffering.
Do you think that you will be able to see that there is no separate self?
I assume you are asking if specifically "me" will see it. No, thought can't see anything. This thing which is happening will somehow change to stop believing in illusion and creating suffering.
Who would see it, the fictional Peter-character?
Can Batman see that he is just a fiction?
Exactly.
Aren’t just thoughts pretending to be a me who hasn’t seen anything and now is frustrated and irritated?
But is there an actual me here being frustrated and irritated?
Yes that is true. But there is difference in "I'M angry" and "There is anger". It seems believe in me and thought of owning the anger can fuel the anger and other emotions?
Frustration is there, sure, but is there a me being frustrated?
Yes I noticed emotions (as a bodily sensation and thoughts) are hanging here as any other experience. Not mine or me.
Or being frustrated or irritated just a ‘play of life’, how life shows up in this moment, but to no-one?
Yes I've seen recently that thoughts and absorption to thoughts, emotions, difficult situations, pain or pleasure are just different ripples of life.

Thanks Vivien,
Peter

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Vivien
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby Vivien » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:59 am

Hi Peter,
There is a thought about need of practise with believe this will change something in future. In this moment there is no entity with the need.
If there is no entity with a need, then why would future need to be changed?
What for? And more importantly, for who?


And this is not an intellectual question.
There is a thought that situation will be different in future. Somehow easier.
Just notice that that assumption cannot be here without actually believing that there is a me / Peter, who would need a different future, who would need life to be easier.

So there has to be something separate from life, in order to want it to be easier.
So please be very honest with yourself.

Do you see that when these thoughts are present, there is automatically that there is a me/Peter wanting a different and more easy experience?

I can see there can be a thought of doing something to remove future suffering.
But these thoughts are ALWAYS on behalf of ME.
Only a self could suffer.
Only a self wants to get rid of suffering.

Where is this future you talk about?
Is there any time when it’s not now?
If you say no, then what is the different future that you are chasing?

Where is the sufferer? What suffers?

V: What is it exactly that is practicing?
P: This body is practising. This organism :).
No. This is an intellectual answer.
The body is not aware. An inert unaware thing cannot practice.
So look deeper here.
And be totally honest with yourself.

It’s very easy to take intellectual understanding as a new belief, and trying to cover up the original belief in a separate Peter.

So what is it exactly that is practicing?
Like I mentioned there is a thought that habit can be created which will make something easier in future.
But what future?
Where is this future you are talking about?

Last days I tried computer app, which interrupts my workday every 15 minutes for a minute. I used that minute to look here and now, are there thoughts, what is going on right now? That helped with clarity of seeing thoughts and experiencing and the silence around those.
Good. Continue doing this.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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cojetoto
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby cojetoto » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:13 pm

Hi Vivien,
If there is no entity with a need, then why would future need to be changed?
What for? And more importantly, for who?

And this is not an intellectual question.
Oh yes, the future is imagined only in thought and then there is a believe in "me" wanting something different to what is now. There must be "me" with this desire.
Just notice that that assumption cannot be here without actually believing that there is a me / Peter, who would need a different future, who would need life to be easier.

So there has to be something separate from life, in order to want it to be easier.
Oh right, yes yes.
So please be very honest with yourself.
This is the hardest part. There is again a new "thought model" of how this is, which is mistaken for reality. I noticed it now.
Do you see that when these thoughts are present, there is automatically that there is a me/Peter wanting a different and more easy experience?
I need to keep my eye on this during the day, to see it in action multiple times.
Where is this future you talk about?
Is there any time when it’s not now? If you say no, then what is the different future that you are chasing?
True, future is only in thoughts. And it's a fictional 'me' in thoughts chasing that fictional 'future'.
Where is the sufferer? What suffers?
Here now I can't find any. So it must be only in thoughts when there is the believe in "me" strong.
So look deeper here.
And be totally honest with yourself.

It’s very easy to take intellectual understanding as a new belief, and trying to cover up the original belief in a separate Peter.
This is happening all the time :/. I'm not sure how to keep my eye on this. How to prevent this self-deception. Very hard.
So what is it exactly that is practicing?
Don't know how to answer else then "this life" is just happening.

I'm forgetting these are not literal questions to answer, but pointers in which direction I must look. Getting confused easily.

Thanks,
Peter

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Vivien
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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Postby Vivien » Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:09 am

Hi Peter,
I'm forgetting these are not literal questions to answer, but pointers in which direction I must look. Getting confused easily.
Yes, this is what I’m seeing in your replies. Most of the time you are not really looking. You are only write down your thoughts. And this is a huge trap.

It doesn’t matter how much intellectual understanding you have, if you still FEEL to be a separate self in your everyday life. The one thinking, doing, deciding, feeling, suffering, and hoping a better life for himself in the future.

Most of your replies in your last post was also just intellectual.
You have to deeply recognize that no amount of beliefs, ideas and intellectual understanding will make you actually see and experience this in your everyday life.
You have to accept that your intellect is the WORST tool ever for seeing things as they are.
It’s a total dead-end.

And until you can’t see this for yourself with total clarity, you will just engage with more thinking, with more theories, with more models to play with.

This inquiry is about brutal honestly.

So really ponder on this.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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