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Re: Where else is it hiding?

Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:43 pm
by Vivien
All right Peter, stay with these questions.

Vivien

Re: Where else is it hiding?

Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:16 pm
by cojetoto
Hi Vivien,

Today I tried many times. At first I could not "find" the "me". Solidness was missing and that feeling of "this is me" was hard to find. Later in the day I could identify it slightly and I noticed that the solidness seems to be linked to bodily sensations like you suggested.
So are you saying that the seeming solidness of the thought ‘me’ comes when there is a sensation is present at the same time?
It seems like that. When bodily sensations were not present the thought of "me" was only a thought. It felt ordinary. Unimportant.
Find the sensation which supposed to be the ‘feeling of me’ or the ‘sense of me’.
Where is this feeling / sensation is located in the body?
I'm not 100% sure about this. It is subtle and hard to observe, but it seems there is a feeling in head and maybe face. Some feeling in chest. And lastly around stomach. If I need to be precise, I found some tingling and pressure in the head, face and chest. Some tension around stomach. I think I could observe at certain times it was combination of the thought "me" and that awareness of body created together an idea "this is me". There was a component of feeling this body, "this body is me". When the bodily sensations were not present (or maybe just not combined), the thought of "me" was ordinary.
Yes. So what happens here is that with a memory that triggers guilt, there are unpleasant contracted sensations in the body. And these sensations are being mistaken to be a solid real me.
Today I was not able to investigate these. They were not creating any strong sensations and memories somehow lost that ability to create a feeling of me. I guess maybe because I tried so many times to bring them up, somehow they become more ordinary? Only guessing.
Just notice that all seeming realness and solidness of the me comes from sensations.
This seems to be the case, also I think even more time and focus could be useful for me to investigate this.

Thanks,
Peter

Re: Where else is it hiding?

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:13 am
by Vivien
Hi Peter,
This seems to be the case, also I think even more time and focus could be useful for me to investigate this.
All right Peter, then please stay with these for a few more days. Go deep :) and keep me updated.

Vivien

Re: Where else is it hiding?

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:17 pm
by cojetoto
Hi Vivien,

I'm not able to find this "me-thought". I don't know what is going on, but I tried to say "me", "I am", "I'm Peter X", "This is me", "myself, mine, me". I tried to observe "me" thought and look for solidness and realness. I cannot find it and observe it. I can of course find the thought of word "me". Also the concept of "me", but the solidness and realness is not there.

Only thing I noticed is when the attention is on sounds, touch, sight, taste, smell or bodily sensations they feel real. There is start contrast to when attention is on thoughts. This is same realness (as far as I remember, as I cannot get to that realness feeling) as I experienced with "me-thought".

Anyhow I feel stuck and do not know what to do. I tried during the day. I tried in the morning, noon and afternoon. I tried to meditate to calm down and stabilize attention, but without luck. I can find the "me-thought" as a generic thought, but not as the original real, solid, "me" as before. Thus I'm not able to verify in experience if the solidness/realness is because of bodily sensations.

Not sure where to take it from here.

Thanks,
Peter

Re: Where else is it hiding?

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:19 am
by Vivien
Hi Peter,
Anyhow I feel stuck and do not know what to do. I tried during the day. I tried in the morning, noon and afternoon. I tried to meditate to calm down and stabilize attention, but without luck. I can find the "me-thought" as a generic thought, but not as the original real, solid, "me" as before. Thus I'm not able to verify in experience if the solidness/realness is because of bodily sensations.
Dear Peter, but isn’t the fact of not being able to find it is the sing of there being no solid self in reality?

Sit down and look around the room, and try to find a real and solid unicorn in the room.
Can you find it? No? Isn’t it because it doesn’t exit any other way than a thought idea?

Do you have to work hard to find some sort of unicorn in the room in order to access that there is no real and solid unicorn in the room?

Or the not-finding it is the finding of there being no real unicorn there?

What other proofs do you need for there being no solid independent self or me than not being able to find it?

What is it that you would actually want to find what you could investigate if it’s solid or not?

Isn’t the me is present whenever there is a sentence with the word ‘me’ in it?
Is there any solidity to this word?

What else do you expect to find in order to recognize that there is no solid inherent me anywhere, only the idea of it?


Vivien

Re: Where else is it hiding?

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:23 pm
by cojetoto
Hi Vivien,
Dear Peter, but isn’t the fact of not being able to find it is the sing of there being no solid self in reality?
Yes, definitely it is a sign.
Do you have to work hard to find some sort of unicorn in the room in order to access that there is no real and solid unicorn in the room?
Well I did not see "me" before easily. It took some effort to "find it" and then to figure out it's not what it seems. Hence I'm just trying to be honest and diligent.
Or the not-finding it is the finding of there being no real unicorn there?
I'm sceptic. Perception can be deceptive on so many levels. Sceptic thought says that not finding something does not mean it is not there. Of course if there is an honest and sufficient effort made to verify then for all practical purposes it can be concluded it's not there.
What is it that you would actually want to find what you could investigate if it’s solid or not?
I was assuming I can still "see" the solid "me" in the form I described earlier:
thought of "me" word, thought of "me" object, bodily sensations.

Now I do not even find this cluster. It's mostly individual thoughts. There are many bodily sensations, but I'm not able relate any to "me-object"/"me-thought". It's seems simply only as a thought.
Isn’t the me is present whenever there is a sentence with the word ‘me’ in it?
Is there any solidity to this word?
No solidity. True.
What else do you expect to find in order to recognize that there is no solid inherent me anywhere, only the idea of it?
Honestly don't know. Just making sure. I do not know how it should be, what should I expect and where should this get. (Or at least trying to be open about this, like a blank paper).

So I would conclude - don't see any solid/real "me" anywhere. It's just thoughts, bodily sensations.

Thanks,
Peter

Re: Where else is it hiding?

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:10 am
by Vivien
Hi Peter,
So I would conclude - don't see any solid/real "me" anywhere. It's just thoughts, bodily sensations.
Please don’t just agree with it. If there is still doubt, then there is still doubt, so our work is not done yet :)

We are going to start to investigate this inherent self from a different angle. From the assumption of it being the doer.

Is there anything that does not happen automatically?

Is there anything that needs your doing? Or everything is just happening?

What do you do in order to be?

What do you do in order to see?
What do you do in order to hear?
What do you do in order to feel?
What do you do in order to taste and smell?

What do you do for thoughts to be?

What do you do in order for the body to be?


Please investigate each questions thoroughly many times throughout the day.
Let me know what you find.

Vivien

Re: Where else is it hiding?

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:50 pm
by cojetoto
Hi Vivien,
Please don’t just agree with it. If there is still doubt, then there is still doubt, so our work is not done yet :)
:) I think it was benefical to look more today. It is becoming more natural to see some aspects.
Is there anything that does not happen automatically?
No. I cannot find anything. Sensations, thoughts, actions of body, "attention movements" all is happening on its own. At times it feels like sailing in a stream. Everything is just smoothly unfolding. More I look more natural it becomes. I still think I can look more.
Is there anything that needs your doing? Or everything is just happening?
There is no doing. I do not see any. Fingers are typing on the keyboard on their own, just moving. Thoughts with words and intention appears on their own. Action then unfolds.
What do you do in order to be?
Nothing. I simply am here. Now.
What do you do in order to see?
Nothing. It's completely effortless seeing. I'm not starting it nor I can finish seeing. I cannot stop seeing. I'm not doing seeing. Sight is just happening.
What do you do in order to hear?
Is there a slight impression I moved attention to hearing? I'm trying to check. Not sure. Try repeatedly. No, there is a thought with intention to focus on hearing. Then sounds appear. More prominent, louder and clearer. I do nothing of that. but it is not super obvious.
What do you do in order to feel? What do you do in order to taste and smell?
Happening on its own.
What do you do for thoughts to be?
Absolutely nothing, they appear like bubbles. Seemingly random, on their own. Stay and then pop. Sometimes there is absorption to thought content. Mistaken for reality.
What do you do in order for the body to be?
Nothing, I see the body, I feel sensations of body. All appear on its own.

Not bad.

Thanks,
Peter

Re: Where else is it hiding?

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:35 am
by Vivien
Hi Peter,

You did a nice investigation.
Is there a slight impression I moved attention to hearing? I'm trying to check. Not sure. Try repeatedly. No, there is a thought with intention to focus on hearing. Then sounds appear. More prominent, louder and clearer. I do nothing of that. but it is not super obvious.
Let’s look into this.

You can experiment with sitting quietly, and holding attention on breathing.
Sooner or later attention will move on to another object/thing.

Try to ignore thinking about how all of it happens. We are not trying to figure out the ‘how’. That would be just more thinking and not experiencing.

We are just noticing WHAT IS, what is actually happening, without trying to interpret or give meaning to it.

Notice, that focus of attention is constantly moving. Watch closely.

Is there something moving attention or is it going to the next thing automatically?

If it seems to be a mover, then try to locate it. Where is it? Can you find a person, a me moving attention?

What is that moves attention? Is there anything moving it? Or does it move by itself?


Experiment with this several times a day, even if just for a few minutes each, but try to have a longer session too. Let me know what you find.

Vivien

Re: Where else is it hiding?

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:11 pm
by cojetoto
Hi Vivien,
Is there something moving attention or is it going to the next thing automatically?
It seems to "move" automatically. There is some experience in attention, then there is another one. Then another one. It can shift rapidly or slowly.
If it seems to be a mover, then try to locate it. Where is it? Can you find a person, a me moving attention?
Nope, no mover. Like with anything else. It just happens. There is no "me" moving it.
What is that moves attention? Is there anything moving it? Or does it move by itself?
It looks like moving by itself. It just happens. No action of moving by anything else.

Thanks,
Peter

Re: Where else is it hiding?

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:37 am
by Vivien
Hi Peter,
It seems to "move" automatically. There is some experience in attention, then there is another one. Then another one. It can shift rapidly or slowly
.
You say that it SEEMS that attention move automatically.
But a seeming thing is not a real thing. Just as a seeming mirage in the desert is not a real oasis.

So look at this more.

Is attention SEEMINGLY moving automatically, or it’s ACTUALLY moving automatically?

Experiment with this many times in the midst of your daily life.

Vivien

Re: Where else is it hiding?

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:09 pm
by cojetoto
Hi Vivien,
Is attention SEEMINGLY moving automatically, or it’s ACTUALLY moving automatically?
No it is definitely moving on its own. Same as thoughts, sensations. Basically all is unfolding automatically. Sensations, thoughts, actions of body, attention. It is at times as being carried by stream.

Thanks,
Peter

Re: Where else is it hiding?

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:20 am
by Vivien
Hi Peter,

OK.

So what is that is not happening on its own?
Is it possible that everything (with no exception) is just happening?

What do you do right now for this to be?

Are you doing reading or reading is happening?
Are you doing sitting or sitting is happening?
Are you doing seeing or seeing is happening?

Vivien

Re: Where else is it hiding?

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:21 pm
by cojetoto
Hi Vivien,

I’d like to spend some more time on these questions.

Thanks,
Peter

Re: Where else is it hiding?

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:25 am
by Vivien
All right, thank you for letting me know :)