Holly's Thread

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Holly
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Re: Holly's Thread

Postby Holly » Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:35 am

Richard,

Good luck with the weekend work!
When you look closely, what do you find that thoughts of dislike can connect with and stick to?
I spend time with this today because this is really beautiful and profound, that there isn't any person that dislike can stick to. I can't find anyone of course, but I want to spend more time on this.
Can you describe what you mean by emotional possessions?
Yeah, this came up after the time spent with family. I spent time driving with my sister in law, and the conversation was all around family, her relationship with my brother, stuff with the kids, etc. This is her life! There isn't anything wrong with it, but my life is so different. I have my husband, but I feel very much alone much of the time. This isn't to say there is anything wrong with the relationship. Its just, I don't see things as she does. I'm having things come up like "I'm not really actually a wife, or a woman..." things like that. These things happen sure but they aren't me. A couple of days later my brother came over and I was overwhelmed by the love I feel for him, but also that there isn't a tangible thing here, him being brother, me being sister.

So of course I still love them and everything, but I don't have the emotional possession of relationships in the same way that they do. Does this make sense at all?
When you are engaging with your dog, is there a formless witness or anything to give up or anyone to give anything up?

This is interesting, I want to spend more time here. I'm not sure what you mean though about whether there is anything to give up to.

Holly

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Re: Holly's Thread

Postby richardcooper2k » Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:09 am

Hi Holly
Good luck with the weekend work!
Thanks, it went well
I spend time with this today because this is really beautiful and profound, that there isn't any person that dislike can stick to. I can't find anyone of course, but I want to spend more time on this.
When it's clear there is noting for the thoughts to stick to, you might find it easier to look at the dislike thoughts and see what basis they have (there might be some feelings that come along with these too - look for any connection between the thoughts and the feelings).
Yeah, this came up after the time spent with family. I spent time driving with my sister in law, and the conversation was all around family, her relationship with my brother, stuff with the kids, etc. This is her life! There isn't anything wrong with it, but my life is so different. I have my husband, but I feel very much alone much of the time. This isn't to say there is anything wrong with the relationship. Its just, I don't see things as she does. I'm having things come up like "I'm not really actually a wife, or a woman..." things like that. These things happen sure but they aren't me. A couple of days later my brother came over and I was overwhelmed by the love I feel for him, but also that there isn't a tangible thing here, him being brother, me being sister.

So of course I still love them and everything, but I don't have the emotional possession of relationships in the same way that they do. Does this make sense at all?
Yes, this make complete sense to me. There is nothing for the traditional narratives about families, relationships, etc to connect with any more.
When you are engaging with your dog, is there a formless witness or anything to give up or anyone to give anything up?

This is interesting, I want to spend more time here. I'm not sure what you mean though about whether there is anything to give up to.
In your previous post you had spoken about fear in giving up certain beliefs. So i asked if you need to give anyting up to do the things you love, like being with your dog.

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Re: Holly's Thread

Postby Holly » Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:03 am

When it's clear there is noting for the thoughts to stick to, you might find it easier to look at the dislike thoughts and see what basis they have (there might be some feelings that come along with these too - look for any connection between the thoughts and the feelings).
I've been working with this, allowing the emotions of dislike to arise and seeing that they don't have anything to stick to. Its been somewhat powerful, I'm finding that it makes it easier to allow difficult emotions to arise. I also noticed something interesting today regarding the connection between thoughts and feelings. I saw that the thoughts were not driving the feelings, it was the other way around. The thoughts were desperately trying to come up with rationale for the uncomfortable feelings.
In your previous post you had spoken about fear in giving up certain beliefs. So i asked if you need to give anyting up to do the things you love, like being with your dog.
Thanks for explaining. No I don't, in fact the beliefs get in the way of doing things that I love.

But, fear is still there. Last night I was seeing the lack of control and felt its like a river that I could fall into, the river where everything flows and there is no I there, and remembering that it is already like this, just an illusion that there is an I with control, and strong fear arose again. I could see that the fear was also not in my control and somehow that made it easier. It didn't feel as terrible. But letting go into the river still did not happen, and I know now that I also don't control whether or not this letting go happens. (So much paradox).

Then today I felt angry and stupid for believing that I wouldn't have control and tried to prove to myself that I do have control, and I could not do it.

Remember how after my camping trip I told you about the red light and I realized it isn't red and isn't a light? Since then I have also been seeing that everything aside from sensations is thoughts. This means that thought is happening all the time and it extends outside of "me" into the whole world, everything that I thought ever existed is only just a thought. But also, I still don't know what a thought is. It seems that at it's base a thought is again, just a sensation.

To add to this confusion, I'm not sure anymore what awareness is. It seems like awareness is just a sustained thought, or a change in quality of thought. It happened a few times today that I had the thought "I need to be aware" but saw that I actually was already aware, I just somehow didn't know it. What is this point between awareness and non-awareness that it seems like I waffle between?

I know this is kind of a lot for one post. Thanks for bearing with me :)

Holly

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Re: Holly's Thread

Postby richardcooper2k » Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:53 am

Hi Holly :-)
I know this is kind of a lot for one post. Thanks for bearing with me :)
Not at all ! The more you put the easier it is for me to respond. I just don't want you to feel like you have to come up with a lot every time you reply.
I'm finding that it makes it easier to allow difficult emotions to arise.
Great !
To add to this confusion, I'm not sure anymore what awareness is. It seems like awareness is just a sustained thought, or a change in quality of thought. It happened a few times today that I had the thought "I need to be aware" but saw that I actually was already aware, I just somehow didn't know it. What is this point between awareness and non-awareness that it seems like I waffle between?
I'm not seeing this as confusion. I'm seeing this as increasing clarity. It may feel confusing at first because you are discovering that what had been taken to be basic truths do not actually stand up when you look at them closely. So these are great explorations and questions that are coming up. What is awareness ?, can i find it ? can i stop being aware ? Also seeing that our perception of objects and the world arises in dependance on thoughts. And that our experience/sensation is unknowable (by thoughts). So you are discovering for yourself what the Buddha suggests Bahiya looks for " in the seen you should only see the seen, in the heard, only the heard, in the cognised(thought), only the cognised and so on through the senses.

Keep welcoming and being curious about fear, anger and any other feelings. Where are they in the body ? Are there some places in the body where they are not present (when they are present in other places) ? Are there any thoughts that come up with them ? Good to notice there is no control over them.
The thoughts were desperately trying to come up with rationale for the uncomfortable feelings.
This is very good to notice too. It's such a strong tendancy isn't it ?

You could check out:

Is there a doer of actions ?

and

Is there an experiencer of experience ?

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Re: Holly's Thread

Postby Holly » Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:44 pm

Richard,
What is awareness ?, can i find it ? can i stop being aware ?
Questions surrounding awareness continue to come up for me. It's been pointed out to me before that trying to be aware is counter-productive. But, I have not been able to stop trying to do it. However its looking more and more like trying to be aware only interrupts the flow of what IS. This is paradoxical because of course trying to be aware is often what is...but...even still, its a belief I have "I need to try to be aware" and along with this belief is the belief that what I was already doing was somehow not the right thing to be doing, and this is false on several levels. It wasn't the wrong thing to be doing and in fact there isn't anything else I could have been doing. All the thoughts, even getting lost in them, when they take over, this is the thing to be doing, its the only thing to be doing. Sometimes thoughts subside and then its like the world comes into focus and I can see everything in ways I didn't see it before, but I can't make this happen. So, in all these periods where I am "not aware" I'm doing exactly the right thing that I should be doing, just being myself. I don't need to be afraid or ashamed of this.

I read a quote by Osho that feels perfect for me right now: "Be choiceless, because if you choose, you become narrow". To me this means, let "ME" be silent. When "I" am silent, I am choiceless, because all the decisions are made by life, or if you will, by God. I went for a run today, and felt this happening. Everything was done by life, not by me. Every decision, every thought, every movement. It was beautiful. I was entranced by falling leaves, the colors of them dying on the path in front of me, the rain pooling in the mud, nothing but beauty surrounding me everywhere. I got back to the car and sat for a few minutes and cried, overwhelmed by it. Even now the feelings are coming up inside me and bringing tears to my eyes.
Keep welcoming and being curious about fear, anger and any other feelings. Where are they in the body ? Are there some places in the body where they are not present (when they are present in other places) ? Are there any thoughts that come up with them ? Good to notice there is no control over them.
Right now the feelings are centered in the heart, and they have been here quite a bit for the past few days. I've also been noticing lately waves that come over my whole body, feels like they start at my feet and move up and out through my head, or sometimes in the core of me, and up and out the top of my head. Sometimes they seem triggered by something, maybe something emotional, but I noticed they aren't always. They feel both painful and pleasurable at the same time. Its wonderful to be able to just notice them come from nowhere and then stop and be gone. Then part of me wants to figure out how to make it happen again but I can't. It seems to crazy and wonderful.

Fear is usually in the lower belly. Usually feelings are in the lower belly or in the heart. I also often feel a sensation in my throat, it feels more like a blocking sensation. I notice strange feelings around my head during times when its clearer to me that there is no me.
Is there a doer of actions ?

and

Is there an experiencer of experience ?
I will continue with these. Often when I ask one of these questions I feel a sort of body response that is something like "what does that even mean, what is a doer? I don't understand". I have to remind myself of the question quite a bit and then over several days things seem to unfold.

Thanks very much, I hope your day is as lovely as mine is!

Holly

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Re: Holly's Thread

Postby richardcooper2k » Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:59 am

Hi Holly

It might be interesting to have a play and see what happens when you try to be aware. What difference does it make ? Does your posture or what you feel in your body/mind change ? Do you feel more tense or relaxed ?
I went for a run today, and felt this happening. Everything was done by life, not by me. Every decision, every thought, every movement. It was beautiful. I was entranced by falling leaves, the colors of them dying on the path in front of me, the rain pooling in the mud, nothing but beauty surrounding me everywhere. I got back to the car and sat for a few minutes and cried, overwhelmed by it. Even now the feelings are coming up inside me and bringing tears to my eyes.
How lovely ! You would have thought that giving up the need to be in control could bring freedom to appreciate and experience the wonder and simplicity of life ?
Right now the feelings are centered in the heart, and they have been here quite a bit for the past few days. I've also been noticing lately waves that come over my whole body, feels like they start at my feet and move up and out through my head, or sometimes in the core of me, and up and out the top of my head. Sometimes they seem triggered by something, maybe something emotional, but I noticed they aren't always. They feel both painful and pleasurable at the same time. Its wonderful to be able to just notice them come from nowhere and then stop and be gone. Then part of me wants to figure out how to make it happen again but I can't. It seems to crazy and wonderful.

Fear is usually in the lower belly. Usually feelings are in the lower belly or in the heart. I also often feel a sensation in my throat, it feels more like a blocking sensation. I notice strange feelings around my head during times when its clearer to me that there is no me.
Great you are just noticing all this and it is being allowed to pass through. The throat one sounds interesting, maybe you need to say or do something that you have been holding back ?
Is there a doer of actions ?

and

Is there an experiencer of experience ?

I will continue with these. Often when I ask one of these questions I feel a sort of body response that is something like "what does that even mean, what is a doer? I don't understand". I have to remind myself of the question quite a bit and then over several days things seem to unfold.
That sounds very familiar :-) Just play with it. See what responses come. Maybe they have feelings, maybe they have words, maybe they don't.

So nice to hear you are having such a fun time !

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Re: Holly's Thread

Postby Holly » Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:34 am

Hi Richard,
It might be interesting to have a play and see what happens when you try to be aware. What difference does it make ? Does your posture or what you feel in your body/mind change ? Do you feel more tense or relaxed ?
Well, I've spent the past 3 years trying very hard to be aware. I took a closer look at this after you suggested it though. The thing is, what I was trying to do isn't "being aware". What I was trying to do was to pay more focused attention to things. So, trying to create an experience where I'm "aware". I'm seeing more and more that I cannot do this, and trying doing this is counter productive. To answer your question, when I try to make myself aware I'm essentially creating a story persona who is determined and tense and trying to prove something to herself.

One thing in particular I noticed is that I really want to DO this spiritual awakening thing, I want to be the one responsible for it, I want to make it happen, and to look on its having happened and feel proud about it. I imagine myself doing this in the future. Part of me resists letting go of this trying because I want to be the one to make it happen. I can see now that making myself aware is impossible, and yet the tendency to want this and to feel a sense of pride when I feel I "progress" at all is unavoidable.

I also tried the opposite today, I tried to NOT be aware. This was of course also impossible.

I'm thinking all along what I thought was awareness was not awareness. But still, I have some questions. Why is it that pretty much every spiritual teacher says "be aware"? How can this be possible for me to do?

And also, what is the quality of difference in experience when it feels like I'm aware versus not? Is this just a matter of where attention is focused? Is it a matter of want? Is it a thought that is in my mind during these periods? There is clearly something different that happens between the times when I'm feeling that I'm "in awareness" versus not.

At least now I'm able to more and more just notice when these periods happen and not try to cause them or try to take credit for them.
The throat one sounds interesting, maybe you need to say or do something that you have been holding back ?
Maybe. In fact, this throat block has been something I noticed quite a long time ago, and in fact it's improved quite a bit. I used to be very shy and also very insecure about knowing how I was feeling about things, and this is something that has changed since I began meditating. I'm noticing that more and more what I want to say just pours out of me. But still, I guess there is more to be let go of here. But again, I can't force it. I tried very hard to force it at first. But once I stopped trying is when it started to get better.

I'm still working on the question about whether there is a doer or an experiencer. I don't think there is, and I notice all the time that things are happening without me doing it.

I have also had some interesting meditations since I wrote last. It seemed like after the run I described I was opened up more emotionally. I had some meditations where it seemed that a lot of emotion is coming up and moving through me, not without discomfort, but its also not terrible. I keep remembering that there isn't anyone for this to stick to.

I also had a little while the other day where I felt overwhelmed by the meaninglessness of my life. It felt to me as though I am invisible and not remarkable at all in the vast expanse of things and this was difficult to accept.

These overwhelming emotions are largely why I didn't write yesterday. I was feeling difficulty to do much at all.

The thing is, I do believe that I am invisible and not remarkable at all. I think that is the point of all of this. I'm feeling more at peace with it, but I think its going to come up again.

Thanks again for being here for me.

Holly

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Re: Holly's Thread

Postby richardcooper2k » Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:19 pm

Hi Holly
I'm thinking all along what I thought was awareness was not awareness. But still, I have some questions. Why is it that pretty much every spiritual teacher says "be aware"? How can this be possible for me to do?

And also, what is the quality of difference in experience when it feels like I'm aware versus not? Is this just a matter of where attention is focused? Is it a matter of want? Is it a thought that is in my mind during these periods? There is clearly something different that happens between the times when I'm feeling that I'm "in awareness" versus not.

At least now I'm able to more and more just notice when these periods happen and not try to cause them or try to take credit for them.
What is it like to not be "in awareness" ?
I have also had some interesting meditations since I wrote last. It seemed like after the run I described I was opened up more emotionally. I had some meditations where it seemed that a lot of emotion is coming up and moving through me, not without discomfort, but its also not terrible. I keep remembering that there isn't anyone for this to stick to.

I also had a little while the other day where I felt overwhelmed by the meaninglessness of my life. It felt to me as though I am invisible and not remarkable at all in the vast expanse of things and this was difficult to accept.
Good stuff. Just keep letting it all pass through. Everything is welcome.
I also had a little while the other day where I felt overwhelmed by the meaninglessness of my life. It felt to me as though I am invisible and not remarkable at all in the vast expanse of things and this was difficult to accept.

These overwhelming emotions are largely why I didn't write yesterday. I was feeling difficulty to do much at all.

The thing is, I do believe that I am invisible and not remarkable at all. I think that is the point of all of this. I'm feeling more at peace with it, but I think its going to come up again.
So you see there is no meaning out there. So doesn't that mean that we make the meaning ? And it is whatever we make it ? When children play, they make up their own little universes, and they know it. Adults get lost in their own made up stories. So the point is, whatever you make it to be. You can play to your hearts content. Make meanings or not. Simple or complicated. If in doubt, go play with the dog ;-) . I find now that simple unhurried tasks can be very satisfying, like chopping up vegetables, going for walks, practicing tai chi, helping out, meeting friends. There's nothing to do, but plenty of it !
Thanks again for being here for me.
My pleasure Holly :-)

I am away again for the next 3 days, might not have much time.

We can have a video chat some time if you would like. Or just continue here in text

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Re: Holly's Thread

Postby Holly » Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:50 am

Hello,
What is it like to not be "in awareness" ?
I think the term "awareness" actually means multiple things. There is the awareness which is just simply being alive with a nervous system. But then there is this other quality, which I don't think is actually awareness, but which gets called awareness all the time. I remember one person I talked to who always said we should "be aware of awareness" and at the time this drove me a little nuts because I didn't understand why he was saying it like that. But what he meant and what I probably mean when I say "awareness" is this state of mind of watching. This is the thing I'm questioning and trying to figure out what it actually is. If everything is just a sensation, then this must just be a different kind of sensation, or maybe it's just a thought, or maybe its some kind of a state the mind can switch into. I suppose the mind switches into various sleep modes, drugs cause shifts as well, and I think this has to be some kind of a shift of a different mind state. But even still, what does this really mean? And what can I realistically do about it? Can I choose to make this mind state happen? When I try to make it happen, as I said when I wrote previously, I think I'm actually just creating another story and causing myself to cling to an idea of how I should be, versus how I am.

So, what its like to not be in awareness I guess means everything is sort of just going, but I'm not paying attention to it, or questioning it, it's just happening. On one hand, this sounds fine, I mean that's how life works anyway. But on the other hand, in this state, it's assumed that there is "me", even though I'm not thinking about it necessarily, but the me is sticky and mind stories are believed.

Once the question comes into my mind "where am I", or any similar question, it kind of flips me into the watching state, and then I might be able to realize that whatever story I'm in is false. I might also not be able to realize this. It sort of depends on how sticky whatever is happening is.
So you see there is no meaning out there. So doesn't that mean that we make the meaning ? And it is whatever we make it ?
Yes, what you say makes sense. But I find that when I'm still, a feeling of panic tends to arise around this notion of meaninglessness. I suppose the only thing to do is to let it come up and run it's course.

I did have a realization surrounding this however. All of this questioning about whether to try, how to stop trying, and whether there is any meaning helped me to see that I have a big story I tell myself that I am a person who takes things very seriously and works very hard, etc etc, and that this is not true. And also, it's getting in the way of me being free and being able to play.

I think a video chat would be great! Let me know when you'd like to do it.

Holly

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Re: Holly's Thread

Postby richardcooper2k » Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:44 pm

Hi Holly
I think the term "awareness" actually means multiple things. There is the awareness which is just simply being alive with a nervous system. But then there is this other quality, which I don't think is actually awareness, but which gets called awareness all the time. I remember one person I talked to who always said we should "be aware of awareness" and at the time this drove me a little nuts because I didn't understand why he was saying it like that. But what he meant and what I probably mean when I say "awareness" is this state of mind of watching. This is the thing I'm questioning and trying to figure out what it actually is. If everything is just a sensation, then this must just be a different kind of sensation, or maybe it's just a thought, or maybe its some kind of a state the mind can switch into. I suppose the mind switches into various sleep modes, drugs cause shifts as well, and I think this has to be some kind of a shift of a different mind state. But even still, what does this really mean? And what can I realistically do about it? Can I choose to make this mind state happen? When I try to make it happen, as I said when I wrote previously, I think I'm actually just creating another story and causing myself to cling to an idea of how I should be, versus how I am.

So, what its like to not be in awareness I guess means everything is sort of just going, but I'm not paying attention to it, or questioning it, it's just happening. On one hand, this sounds fine, I mean that's how life works anyway. But on the other hand, in this state, it's assumed that there is "me", even though I'm not thinking about it necessarily, but the me is sticky and mind stories are believed.

Once the question comes into my mind "where am I", or any similar question, it kind of flips me into the watching state, and then I might be able to realize that whatever story I'm in is false. I might also not be able to realize this. It sort of depends on how sticky whatever is happening is.
Right, so to put it another way, what is the difference between paying attention and not paying attention ? What is happening when we are not "paying attention" ? Then you can look to see if it is anything you have control over.
Yes, what you say makes sense. But I find that when I'm still, a feeling of panic tends to arise around this notion of meaninglessness. I suppose the only thing to do is to let it come up and run it's course.
Fear has a very important job to do. It gives a warning when the body is in danger so that action can be taken. But sometimes fear can come up when there is no danger and then there is nothing for it to do. So welcome the fear as your friend who has protected you many times and thank it for being so helpful. Then you can check together to see if the body is in any danger. If no danger of harm then there is nothing to avert. Try this approach and see what happens.

I have quite a bit of free time this weekend if you would like to chat then. I am in the UK. I'm not sure where you are for time zone differences. North America ?

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Re: Holly's Thread

Postby Holly » Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:26 am

I'm in the United States in the Pacific Northwest, I think I'm 8 hours behind you. I can be free pretty much any time this weekend. Maybe 10:00 my time 18:00 yours?

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Re: Holly's Thread

Postby Holly » Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:01 am

Hi Richard,
Right, so to put it another way, what is the difference between paying attention and not paying attention ? What is happening when we are not "paying attention" ? Then you can look to see if it is anything you have control over.
I think this is the very question I've been asking, and from what I can tell, it's all tied up in thoughts. It seems it is an absence of thoughts, or a stance of being unhooked from thoughts.

For a long time, I think it was for me actually just having another thought, that thought being "stay aware"!

From looking into this question I have been able to also let go of quite a bit of striving, as I cannot choose to not have a thought, to have a different thought, or even to not be hooked to a thought.
Fear has a very important job to do. It gives a warning when the body is in danger so that action can be taken. But sometimes fear can come up when there is no danger and then there is nothing for it to do. So welcome the fear as your friend who has protected you many times and thank it for being so helpful. Then you can check together to see if the body is in any danger. If no danger of harm then there is nothing to avert. Try this approach and see what happens.
When fear arises, a thought often comes up with it that says "if you continue on this path of watching yourself, you will feel this discomfort all the time", and with this thought, I tend to retreat back to being tied up and lost in thoughts, and the fear resides. To be honest, its very hard for me to welcome the fear like this, it doesn't feel authentic to me to try to treat it like its a separate entity or a person. I know this has been helpful for a lot of people, maybe it is something that will work for me at some point, but so far it doesn't feel right. However, checking and seeing that the body is (probably) not in danger is a good strategy. I will try this more.

Thanks again for all your help! The call was what helped me to release a lot of the striving energy. It happened in the point where I sort of lost my train of thought. It was pretty powerful.

Let me know what the next steps are.

Holly

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Re: Holly's Thread

Postby richardcooper2k » Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:29 pm

That's great Holly, i would say you are on the money with being hooked by thoughts or not. It's not about whether thoughts are present or not it's about whether we are hooked by them or not.

So, in the example you give of when fear arises, a thought often comes up which says blah, blah, whatever; what is the compulsion to shift from the sensations of fear to the thoughts (and get hooked by them)? Can you find any link between the fear and the thoughts or does something come in that forces that to happen ? Is there some quality the sensations of fear have that means you have to shift to the thoughts ?

I don't think you got the opportunity to respond to the questions:

Is there a doer of actions ?

and

Is there an experiencer of experience ?

because we got sidetracked with other interesting stuff that came up. Take a look and see what comes up now.

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Re: Holly's Thread

Postby Holly » Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:44 am

Hello,
Can you find any link between the fear and the thoughts or does something come in that forces that to happen ? Is there some quality the sensations of fear have that means you have to shift to the thoughts ?
I shift to the thoughts without noticing it. There have been a handful of times I've been able to see/hear the thoughts without getting pulled into them. But before it happens it often feels like my body is pleading with me to allow it to just go back to sleep, to rest. The quality of the sensations, when I have this thought, is that everything feels very strange, very wrong, eerie. A feeling of dread. Everything feels off.

But, as we've discussed, I shift back and forth all the time. I don't know if its because my body is very slowly transitioning to be in this state more and more, and it just needs to rest a lot?
Is there a doer of actions ?
I don't think so. When I'm in this state I can see very clearly that my body is moving all on its own. I've noticed that recently its becoming easier to see that "I" am a witness to it, that "I" am just a center point that can experience this node which is my body. I don't see this all the time, but when the awareness/attention flips on, and I remember to look, I can see this.
Is there an experiencer of experience ?
Actually it feels kind of like there is. It isn't someone per se, its everyone. Something is present.

Holly

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Re: Holly's Thread

Postby richardcooper2k » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:47 am

Hi Holly
I shift to the thoughts without noticing it. There have been a handful of times I've been able to see/hear the thoughts without getting pulled into them. But before it happens it often feels like my body is pleading with me to allow it to just go back to sleep, to rest. The quality of the sensations, when I have this thought, is that everything feels very strange, very wrong, eerie. A feeling of dread. Everything feels off.

But, as we've discussed, I shift back and forth all the time. I don't know if its because my body is very slowly transitioning to be in this state more and more, and it just needs to rest a lot?
Could be ! I would just be curious about the strange sensations.

Is there anything that still seems unclear ?

If not please answer these questions from your own experience to see if there is anything we have missed and to further clarify things for yourself. No right or wrong answers, just write what comes up. You can do them all at once or break them up and do a few at a time :

1) Can you say with 100% certainty that you have realised that there is no separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?


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