Holly's Thread

[richardcooper2k]

Hi Holly

Well I've felt so much at east the last few days but finding that "fuzzy nothing" isn't happening as often, kind of sad about it, but kind of not, I just feel like things are as they are, and yeah again, even this "thought" is a conditioned response, right? Its all right here, I just have to remember it.

Thats right. We are not chasing after any experiences. Just looking at what is right here now to see if we can find what thought says is here. Thats pretty much it. Nice and simple.

Please forgive me, I'm not sure what you mean by hoovering. Do you mean, being the "fuzzy nothing" or not being it? Or you mean, the difference between doing anything at all versus thinking about it? This is something I've realized a few times. I do a lot of thinking about how things are supposed to be, or the way I should be viewing things, or the way I should be approaching this or that to make the realization, and then its like, hey...what about what you're feeling RIGHT NOW? What about just noticing what you really are RIGHT NOW? And this also seems like a good way to kind of cross the bridge a little bit. But I still always fall back into the thinking about it and not just allowing it.

That's good, yes, come back to whatever feeling is here, then you can look at the thoughts and say, hang on a minute, is that really true ?
Apologies for talking about hoovering, i live in the UK and it's a term we often use for using the vacuum cleaner on carpets. My suggestion was supposed to be to experiment with a cleaning task and just notice the difference between cleaning and thoughts about cleaning.

Thanks for writting about your expectations. It can be very useful to look at these and see if they are realistic. From what you write its sounds like you can see how some expectations could get in the way.

To be honest I don't know what you mean when you say is my heart awake. But I think maybe you mean, my heart is already awake. If I just allow, what I need is already here.

Yes, indeed !

Your question "how would it be different to what you are experiencing right now in this moment?" I think the answer would be exactly what you were alluding to - I'd be experiencing it and not thinking about experiencing it.

What do you think you would be experiencing ?

I have another question, but leave it for another time if its enough already. A few times you have refered to things as being conditioned. What do you mean by this ?

I'm glad to hear you are still feeling at ease, remember to keep being curious, kind, gentle and that you don't need to try to hard or resist. There are no wrong answers, thoughts or experiences. We are not trying to change or fix anything. We are just exploring to see what we find and what shows up. What thoughts are saying and if it is true.

[Holly]

Hello!

So you asked, what do I think I'd be experiencing? This is surprisingly hard for me to answer. I can tell you what I feel right now, and I can tell you all kinds of emotions, pretty much any emotion I can think of, that have come up surrounding looking or thinking about non-self. I guess I imagine being in a state of flow, where I feel connection and oneness. I won't be constantly second guessing my thoughts and feelings, having the nagging feeling all the time that I should be feeling or thinking something different. I won't have the constant question "what is this realization stuff actually all about", I won't have to seek any more and I can relax. I won't have this feeling anymore that I'm missing out on something really important, that life is passing me by, unlived and unimportant.

You also asked what I mean by saying things are conditioned. What I mean is that, everything happens due to something causing it to happen. It doesn't happen because "I" make it happen. With thoughts or some behaviors, I imagine that they are conditioned responses kind of like Pavlov's dogs. Responses that this biological body and brain kind of have encoded, and so they just happen, and the illusion is that "I" am doing them. I am taking this word probably from what I've been taught in Buddhism. I suppose that a lot of the time I'm knowing that things are conditioned but maybe I'm not seeing it, it's really hard to see, it really feels right now like "I" am typing and "I" am thinking of expectations about realization.

Please don't worry or feel like you're asking me too much. If I need to back off a little I will let you know. I'm not feeling pushed or pressured at this point. I want to continue this journey!

Holly

[richardcooper2k]

Hi Holly

So you asked, what do I think I'd be experiencing? This is surprisingly hard for me to answer. I can tell you what I feel right now, and I can tell you all kinds of emotions, pretty much any emotion I can think of, that have come up surrounding looking or thinking about non-self. I guess I imagine being in a state of flow, where I feel connection and oneness. I won't be constantly second guessing my thoughts and feelings, having the nagging feeling all the time that I should be feeling or thinking something different. I won't have the constant question "what is this realization stuff actually all about", I won't have to seek any more and I can relax. I won't have this feeling anymore that I'm missing out on something really important, that life is passing me by, unlived and unimportant.

Ok so lets take a look at this. Are there any other thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc on the menu of life apart from the ones that are here right now ? Any control or choice over whether our experience is pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral ?
If there is no choice or control, then what effect does beleiving that things could be different have ? Make sure you check this out in your own experience.

You also asked what I mean by saying things are conditioned. What I mean is that, everything happens due to something causing it to happen. It doesn't happen because "I" make it happen. With thoughts or some behaviors, I imagine that they are conditioned responses kind of like Pavlov's dogs. Responses that this biological body and brain kind of have encoded, and so they just happen, and the illusion is that "I" am doing them. I am taking this word probably from what I've been taught in Buddhism. I suppose that a lot of the time I'm knowing that things are conditioned but maybe I'm not seeing it, it's really hard to see, it really feels right now like "I" am typing and "I" am thinking of expectations about realization.

Right, i have some experience of Buddhism as well. When i went through the liberation unleashed process, it turned a lot of that on its head, as it revealed what was belief and what was more realistic. For example the heart suttra went from being mystical and confusing poetry to being an ordinary common sense description of how things are.
The idea that things are conditioned is useful in so far as it depersonalises everything. Nothing is personal any more. One thing leads to the next.
Lets take a look our experience and see what evidence we can actually find for conditioning. So looking at the 5 senses, feeling and thought, what evidence can you find of causation ? You can look at them together or one by one.

Please don't worry or feel like you're asking me too much. If I need to back off a little I will let you know. I'm not feeling pushed or pressured at this point. I want to continue this journey!

Thankyou, that's good to hear, i look forward to reading what comes out of these new enquiry questions :-)

[Holly]

Hello my friend.

Ok so lets take a look at this. Are there any other thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc on the menu of life apart from the ones that are here right now ?

No, I know there isn't. When I stop and look at this I can't grab onto any thought, feeling, sensation, or anything at all. I can't find anything at all. Everything is empty. So I can see it when everything is very still and when I look. But I know I must still believe there is something more, because I still think there is an "I" here most of the time. I keep trying to stop and find this belief but when I look for it I cannot find it anywhere. All I find is blankness.

Any control or choice over whether our experience is pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral ?
If there is no choice or control, then what effect does beleiving that things could be different have ? Make sure you check this out in your own experience.

If I'm being honest, even though I know there isn't any choice, I think there is a choice. I feel that there has to be a choice, because if not, how can "I" make sure everything happens that is supposed to happen? I know this is wrong, but it's what I seem to believe, that "I" am required to safeguard what this body feels and does. But I also know that I contradict this all the time with my actions. All the time I do things the opposite of what I think I would want to do. Like right now I'm eating chocolate when I "shouldn't be" lol. It actually feels like I both chose and didn't chose to eat this chocolate. Its all very confusing.

What effect does believing I have a choice have when I don't have one? It gives me a sense of power and control, a sense of confidence that even though maybe right NOW I'm not doing exactly what I think is the right thing to do, that I can do it when I really need to. I can keep from hurting myself or other people, I can take care of my husband and the dogs and the garden, I can do things to make myself happy....If I don't have this then what do I have...nothing. I would have to accept everything as it is and everything as it happens. Accept that everything is blank and everything is empty.

I mean the emptiness is really scary, it just stretches out forever and ever, empty...

Right, i have some experience of Buddhism as well.

It was the Buddhists who recommended at first that I come to find you :) Actually a lot of what they said already got turned on its head, well, here's to more of it falling apart...

Lets take a look our experience and see what evidence we can actually find for conditioning. So looking at the 5 senses, feeling and thought, what evidence can you find of causation ? You can look at them together or one by one.

I don't see conditioning as being related to the 5 senses. Help me out, I'm probably missing something here.

Where I do see it is in relation to thought and actions. I guess I assumed that a thought came up, or I did some physical action for some reason, something or other triggered it. Sometimes they are just reflexive narrations of whatever the senses are recording, or they could be reacting to something in my unconscious. It seems like the mind and body just do this because...that's what their job is? Its just what they do? I don't know though. I just happens. I guess I don't actually KNOW that they are conditioned. Things could just be happening and conditioning is a story made up by my mind? I mean it seems obvious that one thing leads to another thing, right? Maybe this isn't important, even? Except it relates back to the issue of control. One thing the Buddhists like to say is "set up the conditions for what you want", and I've known for a while that this is wrong, but maybe it goes even deeper. If conditions are an illusion, then control seems even more ridiculous than it did a moment ago.

But I have to say I still think that conditions exist. Though its true if speaking strictly, I cannot prove they are there. I'm gonna test this out some more.

Holly

[richardcooper2k]

Hi Holly :-)

Ok, so nothingness, blankness, emptyness, nihilism these things can sound scary. Lets take a look...

So nihilism is the belief that nothing exists. It's a belief. Which means it is dependant upon thought. We are not interested in thoughts. So believing nothing exists is of no use to us. We just want to look at our experience and see if what thoughts say are true.

Emptyness isn't a thing or an experience. Emptyness isn't saying that things don't exist. We discover emptiness when we see that things have no essence. This can be strange at first, looking and finding nothing, no basis. But nothing is lost, we have just found out how things have been all along, but husband, dogs and garden are still here.

In zen they say first there is a mountain, then there isn't a mountain, then there is a mountain. So first we think the mountain is real, is out there and has essence. Then we see it is empty and it seems to disappear, it is no longer findable. Then we see the appearence of the mountain is still here, the stream is still runing down and we can still hear its wonderful sound. We can still dive into the pool and feel the sensation of the water on our bodies, even if when we look, they have no essence. So we discover nothing and everything exist at the same time, and we can experience ourselves as both, nothing and everything. If this is evident to you then try swapping back and forth between being nothing and being everything. Its good to appreciate both "sides". In either case, where is there a seperate self that has any control ? If a thought of "I" shows up then what does it point to ? What is "I" ? Should the thought of "I" stop showing up ? Is there something wrong with it ?

On ethical behaviour: After i had been guided through the LU process i had some similar anxiety come up about ethics. I thought that if i did not remain vigilent then i would do bad things. I went to speak to a senior order member in the Buddhist organisation about it. He told me "no one behaved ethically, ever !" . I was quite shocked by this but it made me question the beliefs i had been holding onto around this, something shifted, i became more relaxed and my behaviour did not deteriorate ! But maybe considor, why wouldn't Holly continue to take care of herself, her husband, dogs and garden, if that is what she wants to do and that is what she loves to do. Does there need to be any other reason ?

On conditionality : what evidence do you find, in your own expereince, that thoughts and actions are caused ? Do thoughts and theories count as evidence ? If not, why ?

[Holly]

We discover emptiness when we see that things have no essence. This can be strange at first, looking and finding nothing, no basis. But nothing is lost, we have just found out how things have been all along, but husband, dogs and garden are still here.

More and more often, when I look, I see emptiness, but as you say, it's overlaid with everything in life that is happening. Sometimes the emptiness is scary, but sometimes it isn't, sometimes it's just peaceful. Today I was feeling reassured that I could look and look again and still find it there.

He told me "no one behaved ethically, ever !" . I was quite shocked by this but it made me question the beliefs i had been holding onto around this, something shifted, i became more relaxed and my behaviour did not deteriorate !

This is pretty cool. "No one" behaved ethically :)

Actually, the question of ethics is part of what drove me to start seeking for help outside of the Buddhist community I was a part of. I'm guessing it might be the same one as you, since you mention order members :) Anyway I started the study program and there were some chapters about ethics that really raised a lot of dis-ease in me, and I couldn't explain why. I don't want to divert too much here but that uneasy feeling about all the trying to be ethical all the time and also a question another question: " what is enlightenment, really?", both sent me into seeking overdrive mode lol.

On conditionality : what evidence do you find, in your own expereince, that thoughts and actions are caused ? Do thoughts and theories count as evidence ? If not, why ?

I watched more for this today. Thoughts tell me: some events do seem to cause other events. For example if I take a drug it has a physiological effect on my body. However, what "caused" me to take the drug? Pain perhaps. What "caused" the pain? Headache? What caused the headache? Etc, etc, you can go back in time on it forever it's all connected in one big chain and not really any starting or finishing point, other than maybe the start of my life and the inevitable end of it at some point (as I also cannot experience any evidence for anything outside of my life). As I said, this is only my thinking on it. As I watched actual experience today, I could see that there isn't any evidence I can point to that there is anything you can look at or touch called "conditionality". Its a way of describing experience sure. But it's only that. Everything just happens. I had wondered whether there is any significance to knowing this. Maybe there isn't, except that, it's one less tie to control.

I also noticed again today, that so much of what I've been doing when I seek is trying to feel like I think a person who knows there is no self feels. Rather than actually looking at my experience for what it is and asking the question, is there any self here. I'll avoid saying its conditioned for me to do so, but it seems that I frequently do attempt to change what I am, rather than just seeing what I am.

[richardcooper2k]

Hey Holly !

Regarding ethics, in my opinion there is a world of difference between an awareness of what is likely to be helpful or unhelpful in any given situation and developing some sort of expectation about how i and other people should and should not behave.

I watched more for this today. Thoughts tell me: some events do seem to cause other events. For example if I take a drug it has a physiological effect on my body. However, what "caused" me to take the drug? Pain perhaps. What "caused" the pain? Headache? What caused the headache? Etc, etc, you can go back in time on it forever it's all connected in one big chain and not really any starting or finishing point, other than maybe the start of my life and the inevitable end of it at some point (as I also cannot experience any evidence for anything outside of my life). As I said, this is only my thinking on it. As I watched actual experience today, I could see that there isn't any evidence I can point to that there is anything you can look at or touch called "conditionality". Its a way of describing experience sure. But it's only that. Everything just happens. I had wondered whether there is any significance to knowing this. Maybe there isn't, except that, it's one less tie to control.

Right so conditionality is sometimes a useful model but when we look at our experience, it isn't something we can see or find evidence for. What determines whether something is significant ? What happens when you look for significance ?

I also noticed again today, that so much of what I've been doing when I seek is trying to feel like I think a person who knows there is no self feels. Rather than actually looking at my experience for what it is and asking the question, is there any self here. I'll avoid saying its conditioned for me to do so, but it seems that I frequently do attempt to change what I am, rather than just seeing what I am.

Yes. The temptation to land and arrive in a new understanding is always there for us, even about "no self". But our experience is always here to check and see, what is here ? Being gentle,patient and curious.
When you try to change who you are, what is trying to change what ?

[Holly]

Hi! I’m replying using the phone app and not sure how to use the quote feature, so bear with me.

So regarding ethics, if we don’t have control, and if there is no self, does it make any sense to practice ethics at all? How can I make “myself” better? Who is trying to make what better? And as you pointed out, it adds a lot of expectations.

Regarding conditions. It seems apparent that there is cause and effect. For example, you say something to me like “is there really anything conditioned” and without this, the thought wouldn’t come to my head to even ask the question. So it seems there is something here, a pattern perhaps, I’m not saying that a self is creating it but patterns happen. Like DNA, or how biological structures grow. Life seems to have rules that it follows.

I wonder if conditioning is to a large extent what ego is. An egoic response is a response shaped by false beliefs and repressed pain. An authentic response would be one that just happens without these influences. I can see this happen in my experience. In interactions with people, desire to appear a certain way and avoid pain shape pretty much the whole relationship. Without these influences, or when these desires and pain start to lessen, there is acceptance and love.

Sorry if I’m getting off topic a little. But maybe I am finding conditioning in my experience.

The reason I am questioning whether it matters is because it seems to me that the important thing is understanding and believing that I cannot control it, all is just happening. So in a way it both exists and does not exist in my experience. It exists only as a pattern seen. It does not exist as an actual thing apart from life itself.

You asked “what happens when I look for significance”. I love this question. I missed it when I read your response earlier today. Let me experiment on it.

You asked “when you try to change who you are, who is trying to change what?” Asking this allows me to transcend for just a moment. Allows who to transcend? Transcendence happens. Beautiful.

Keep these questions coming!

Holly


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[richardcooper2k]

Hi Holly

I've no idea if it works when using the phone app, but for me to get the quote thing to work i highlight the text i want to quote and then tap on the quotation marks in the top right of the post i am quoting from.

So just to check in about what our remit is here. Simply put we are looking at our experience to see if what we assume to be there and happening is actually there. Predominantly focusing on the sense of self and what it can or can't do. So it is quite different to philosopy in which we can discuss different opinions. At the end of the day it is down to what you find to be there and anything i say has nothing to do with that, as it isn't what you are seeing. My job is just to get you to look for yourself.

So we are not even trying to gain an understanding of our experience. Just to be clear about what is there when we look, is what thought seems to be saying is there actually findable ? So from a certain perspective you don't get to take anything away from this. It is more like a process of subtraction (of beliefs) rather than gaining a new or replacing our previous understanding. Clarity is not the same as understanding. It doesn't give you anything to hold onto. Naked seeing, doesn't need any subsequent labeling or analysis to muddy the waters.

So to check on conditioning, you said when you look at one of my questions this causes thoughts to come up in your head. What link can you find between observing the question and thoughts coming up ? How do you know that one follows the other ?

What is your experience of ego ? Is this something that can be found, or is it purely theoretical ?

A couple of extra questions :
Are you the thinker of thoughts ?
Can a thought think ?

Feel free to add anything you found out about looking for significance

[Holly]

Richard,

Sorry for getting off topic in my last response.

So to check on conditioning, you said when you look at one of my questions this causes thoughts to come up in your head. What link can you find between observing the question and thoughts coming up ? How do you know that one follows the other ?

Well I know that one follows the other due to memory of the one coming before the other. But I think what I was trying to say in my last response is that this is merely a pattern that can be observed, and in fact I'm not able to experience anything more than the memory that brings up a thought that there is a pattern. So maybe a pattern is "conditioning" and it's there the same way that a tree can be seen to lose it's leaves in the fall. But conditioning isn't a "thing", there is no weight or substance to it, it's not contained anywhere as anything that can be pointed to. A computer program is another example. I can point to code on a screen and as far as I understand it, a computer can be in a state that allows a program to be run. So it's a series of patterns that by all appearances cause things to happen. But "conditioning" is not a separate thing. So I can experience patterns and even notice them, I can predict when something is likely going to happen. I can predict what this body is likely to do next. It's likely to keep typing out this response. But I actually don't know for a fact that its going to keep typing this response. And I don't actually have control over whether or not it keeps typing this response.

I know when I read a question from you it's likely that thoughts will come up. But in fact when I watch I can see that the reading happens, and then the thoughts happen, and in fact "I" am not reading or thinking, but these things are just occurring.

What is your experience of ego ? Is this something that can be found, or is it purely theoretical ?

No, it can't be found in any moment and it's very confusing. I won't go into philosophizing about it :) But I don't think it's purely theoretical. Again, I think there are patterns that can be observed, things that can be observed with the senses, yes memory has to be involved to know what came before, but still, something is going on here. However, in any moment, in direct experience, no, I can't find it at all. If I try to look all I find is silence.

Are you the thinker of thoughts ?

No. The thoughts just occur. I don't even really know what they are. It seems like they are just the mind mimicking body sensory experience. I don't know if a thought can even be considered real. But then what is even real. Is body sensory experience even real? How can this be known? I guess it can't really be known. I know you said about zen, things feel unreal and then they feel real again.

Can a thought think ?

No! This is a funny one. Of course a thought can't think. But there's a lot of irony here. If "I" am a thought in any moment then how could "I" think?

Feel free to add anything you found out about looking for significance

I'm finding that there isn't any. But the illusion is extra persistent.

Thanks for these questions. They are all helpful, even if the answer is no every single time.

Anger came back again today. It seems there is a lot of anger at all the effort and time wasted on the illusion.

Holly

[richardcooper2k]

Hello Holly

Sorry for getting off topic in my last response.

Its absolutly fine, i'm just doing my job of trying to point you in the right direction for looking and seeing.

If you look for patterns, memories, the past or the future; outside of thought, what do you find ?

Thanks for these questions. They are all helpful, even if the answer is no every single time.

Anger came back again today. It seems there is a lot of anger at all the effort and time wasted on the illusion.

Anger and other emotions are welcome, you are doing great, Holly, just looking, feeling and seeing.

[Holly]

Hello,

I'm just doing my job of trying to point you in the right direction for looking and seeing.

Thank you for doing your job, and being here for me!

If you look for patterns, memories, the past or the future; outside of thought, what do you find ?

Nothing. I can't find anything.

It doesn't, or didn't, feel right to just say there is nothing in answer to the question about ego, conditioning, patterns, not until yesterday evening. Then I just realized, there isn't anything like that to be found. There isn't even anything to exist or to change. Nothing to try to become better, or to try to become enlightened.

Something interesting is happening in regards to feeling and emotion, especially uncomfortable ones. Its becoming easier to just allow them to be, to blossom, change, or fade on their own, without getting involved or trying to modify them, then it is to NOT do this. And in fact, they are becoming somewhat pleasant. There was a small shift yesterday evening, where a feeling of ennui/mild dread in my gut become easier to pay attention to than it was to ignore. I didn't realize it but I was running away from this feeling, perhaps unconsiously I thought it was an indicator I'm doing something wrong and need to change course. This feeling is still here with me now, and its just a feeling, it doesn't mean anything at all, and in fact its not even unpleasant, it's kind of dark and foreboding, like strong coffee or a rainstorm, beautiful in its way.

Holly

[richardcooper2k]

Hi Holly :-)

It doesn't, or didn't, feel right to just say there is nothing in answer to the question about ego, conditioning, patterns, not until yesterday evening.

The fact that you voiced it didn't feel right gave me the opportunity to find the right questions. So that is really helpful for us.

Then I just realized, there isn't anything like that to be found. There isn't even anything to exist or to change. Nothing to try to become better, or to try to become enlightened.

Right. It all arises in dependance on thought.

Something interesting is happening in regards to feeling and emotion, especially uncomfortable ones. Its becoming easier to just allow them to be, to blossom, change, or fade on their own, without getting involved or trying to modify them, then it is to NOT do this. And in fact, they are becoming somewhat pleasant. There was a small shift yesterday evening, where a feeling of ennui/mild dread in my gut become easier to pay attention to than it was to ignore. I didn't realize it but I was running away from this feeling, perhaps unconsiously I thought it was an indicator I'm doing something wrong and need to change course. This feeling is still here with me now, and its just a feeling, it doesn't mean anything at all, and in fact its not even unpleasant, it's kind of dark and foreboding, like strong coffee or a rainstorm, beautiful in its way.

This is really beautiful to read Holly

What does thought know about sensation ?

[Holly]

Hi Richard,

I thought I replied to this post yesterday, but it seems like there are some server issues with the platform, as I'm having trouble getting messages to load, and it also looks like my reply wasn't saved, but no worries, I'll make another reply.

What does thought know about sensation ?

Thoughts can only know something about sensation, or anything they are commenting on, via remembering previous sensations. I'm not sure what memories are exactly, they are a kind of knowledge, but they are also experienced via thought. But a thought could only be commenting on some sensation that had happened previously, even if it was only very slightly previously. So they can only know something if there is a causation effect, which when I observe, I cannot find.

But here again this question of causation is difficult. Sensation can tell us when something is wrong, when there is danger, and sometimes it's a thought that appears to let me know. But I wonder, is it more of a bodily knowing that happens when you know there is something wrong or danger? When there is true danger you don't think, you just react.

I was testing this out, listening to people speaking, to see whether I know the meaning of the words without thought, and I saw that I did know the meaning of the words. Knowing happened without thinking.

So it seems that thoughts don't actually know anything, they just occur and appear to be connected to previous events.

Holly

[richardcooper2k]

Hi Holly

I thought I replied to this post yesterday, but it seems like there are some server issues with the platform, as I'm having trouble getting messages to load, and it also looks like my reply wasn't saved, but no worries, I'll make another reply.

Sorry about that, aparently, we get problems with to many bots causing an overload. I've been finding i can't always get the site to load up in my browser.

Re thought and sensation. Try it this way. Take a look at/feel sensation. You can only do this with sensation that is here, now, right ? Can thoughts tell you anything about current sensation ? Can you find any link between thought and sensation ? Are they conected/related in any way ? Keep going back to sensation to use that as your starting point for looking so you don't end up thinking about it. Leave the past, memories and time for the moment. You are doing really well, your last reply was pretty good, but we can sharpen things up a little more.

Keep going ! :-)

Richard