Relationships

[Jadzia]

And how does this happen? Isn't it natural for him to start thinking of himself as a separate self? How else would it be? It's hard for me to imagine it ...

Easy to find out. Do you have kids around? If not observe on the streets. What do the parents do? What is one of the first things you learn.

What is "natural" in this case? Something which comes automatically inherently (from the inside, DNA) or something which comes automatically because it is a followed belief?

I try again and again and I can't find it. I can't say that there is a localized self in me. There is only an image in my mind, something like my picture.

This is good to know. It means there is no physical place for an I, no point of reference, no entity called I. Just thoughts with the content in which an I plays a big role, right?

There is an image, one could say in the mind, but what if you are going to look for a mind in your direct experience? Do you find one?

I know it is so. And I feel kind of bad because I realize the limitations of my mind. It's hard for me to feel it, to really feel it.

No need to feel bad. ;-)
What was meant: how does something like this make you feel? A bit scared or happy or whatever.
And what you see is that a belief, a status quo is defended. This is ok. This happens. Notice all these thoughts and think something like "Hi thoughts, doing overtime, thanks for your good job, but right now, NO interest."

[Kaliva]

Easy to find out. Do you have kids around? If not observe on the streets. What do the parents do? What is one of the first things you learn.

I don't know exactly ... things like "come to me", "you're very sweet", "you have to eat", "don't do this, do that" ... things like that. Is that what you mean?

What is "natural" in this case? Something which comes automatically inherently (from the inside, DNA) or something which comes automatically because it is a followed belief?

Well, what would it look like in another way - the parents to be silent, to say nothing or to speak to the child in the plural "We have to do this and that ..."? I do not understand. How? To tell the child "We are" and not "You are"? I understand that this is not about DNA. When I say natural, I mean a process that cannot be different from the one we know. Even if they don't say anything, let's say they don't suggest to the child that he is a "separate self", I think that the actions will still have this effect. Is it a coincidence that we are taught to think in terms? After all, this makes it easier for us to communicate "Give me this pear" - there is "you" - "to me". How could it be otherwise? Isn't that what sets us apart from animals, the awareness of our own existence? Awareness of consciousness?

There is an image, one could say in the mind, but what if you are going to look for a mind in your direct experience? Do you find one?

Ok, what's going on here? No mind, no body, no me? Is there anything at all? :)))

What was meant: how does something like this make you feel? A bit scared or happy or whatever.

I feel annoyed. Just as I described in the previous post - well, ok, there is no separate self, no body, no mind ... But I, which does not exist, I have a bunch of duties and work to do. :)

[Jadzia]

I don't know exactly ... things like "come to me", "you're very sweet", "you have to eat", "don't do this, do that" ... things like that. Is that what you mean?

Hm, no, more in the line of the teaching what the world is like, like "you are Cindy, I am mom".
Though " you are very sweet" is how we learn what we are, too.

Well, what would it look like in another way - the parents to be silent, to say nothing or to speak to the child in the plural "We have to do this and that ..."? I do not understand. How? To tell the child "We are" and not "You are"?

There a languages in which the word I doesn't exist.
For the moment it is more important that you look and observe, more than thinking ABOUT something. Whenever you find an answer that starts with " I think.... " then have a look, observe, search.

Ok, what's going on here? No mind, no body, no me? Is there anything at all? :)))

Did you look? If you stretch your senses to their limit what do you find.
Here is an exercise to help you
Lie down somewhere, bed, couch, carpet, wherever you feel comfortable and undisturbed.
Look around notice what is there in the room, feel your body lying on whatever you lie, feel the clothes on your body, maybe a breeze of air on the oncovered parts of your body.
Close your eyes and allow yourself some deep breaths. Say Hi to your thoughts and don't heed them, from this moment on it is just about senses, what you have on input of your senses.
Then with eyes closed :
Can you be sure that you are in a room?
Can you be sure that you have ten toes, hair?
Can you know that there is a body?

Just sense, stretch your senses.

Love,
Jadzia

[Kaliva]

So far I can't cope, I always imagine something and I know very well where I am. It's not very clear to me what exactly I need to feel and maybe I need to spend more time on it. When I try in the evening - I fall asleep .. During the day I am more tense and it is still difficult for me. I try to leave it to the senses but it is more accurate to say that I think about how I feel ... I don't know if I will succeed but I will keep trying.

[Jadzia]

The odd thing is that we use thoughts to investigate, we need words to talk her in the forum and words telling us what happens but at the same time we have to learn not to listen to thoughts as if our lifes would depend on it and to learn that not everything thoughts tell us is valid information.
So what you sense or feel will be interpreted by thoughts and that is fine.

If this exercise is too hard for you at this moment it isok, no forcing of anything and no need to frustrate yourself.
If you fall asleep trying it in the evening - good, it shows that you relax. :-)
If you feel you get tensetrying during the day - it might be that you are trying too hard, to succeed, to get a result.

Lets make the step smaller and just help you into a relaxed sensing, ok?
Do you sit?
Close your eyes, breathe in and out. Done?
Just feel the parts of the body which have contact to something. Like the back? The bottom? The feet? What else?
Just do this.
And do it lightly, with curiousity. What exactly shows the sense of physical feeling?

Love,
Jadzia

[Kaliva]

Just feel the parts of the body which have contact to something. Like the back? The bottom? The feet? What else?
Just do this.
And do it lightly, with curiousity. What exactly shows the sense of physical feeling?

Hello, I'm sorry I didn't write for so long, my mind seems to be procrastinating - I'll write tomorrow, now I don't have time ... So ... I do the exercise several times and I don't understand what should happen, what these physical sensations should show me ... Just physical sensations and that's it. I was thinking about the localization of the Self, I think my body and my mind are what I can call the "I". The two in one, the two together are what I can call "I". They are what sets me apart from others, my history, my way of thinking, my physical characteristics. It seems that I am moving further and further away from the understanding that there is no separate self, as if I am constantly looking for evidence to the contrary ...

[Jadzia]

Sounds like a good deal of resistance.
Can you pretend that the outcome of what we do here is totally uninteresting, nice, but hey, not so important? Take all pressure away and just go into the child has fun to play modus?

I don't understand what should happen, what these physical sensations should show me ... Just physical sensations and that's it.

There is nothing which should happen, there is no way and experience which is the same for everyone. There is no special result.
So there is physical sensation, how is it known that the sensation belongs to a body?

I was thinking about the localization of the Self, I think my body and my mind are what I can call the "I". The two in one, the two together are what I can call "I".

Good that you looked! :-)
Many people would say: Yeah, same here.
So tell me, is the I somewhere in the body at a special place or is body=I?
Same with mind, is the whole mind=I or some part of it?
When you close your eyes and ask yourself: Where do I feel the I? What is the answer?
And, remember, it is your honest answer that helps us to get on, however big, daft, silly, interesting, intelligent, boring or what ever it is like, ok?

Love,
Jadzia

[Kaliva]

Take all pressure away and just go into the child has fun to play modus?

I think that's exactly the problem, I take what we do too seriously. I accept it as a commitment, as a goal.It stays in my mind as a task, and I have many tasks.

So there is physical sensation, how is it known that the sensation belongs to a body?

I don't know how to answer. How can we be sure of anything? Here, I will say "I'm sure the sensations are on my body." What else could it be? Where does this feeling come from if not from the body?

So tell me, is the I somewhere in the body at a special place or is body=I?
Same with mind, is the whole mind=I or some part of it?
When you close your eyes and ask yourself: Where do I feel the I? What is the answer?
And, remember, it is your honest answer that helps us to get on, however big, daft, silly, interesting, intelligent, boring or what ever it is like, ok?

I do not know. I don't know what to answer. It's hard for me to determine ... Maybe the whole body and the whole mind ... Look, I think maybe I'm not ready for this, maybe I need to know that there is an "I", maybe that gives me security in the moment. It's as if I assume there's no separate self, I'll disappear ... Maybe it's something like that. I guess some people fail at this or am I wrong?

[Jadzia]

Look, I think maybe I'm not ready for this, maybe I need to know that there is an "I", maybe that gives me security in the moment. It's as if I assume there's no separate self, I'll disappear ... Maybe it's something like that. I guess some people fail at this or am I wrong?

Some people have a look here, sort of take the whiff/scent in and then decide that it is enough for them for the moment. That is ok. There is a readyness needed to question everything and leave old knowledge and yes, what looks like security, behind.
Sometimes it is simply not the right time, other things in life are more in the foreground. There is no failure, just wrong timing.

So ask yourself, is it the right time for you to take away from you what you firmly believe in?
If the answer is no, nothing is lost, one day come again, open another thread and start again.

Love,
Jadzia

[Kaliva]

So ask yourself, is it the right time for you to take away from you what you firmly believe in?
If the answer is no, nothing is lost, one day come again, open another thread and start again.

Yes, I'm not ready, it's not the right time. Thanks for your patience and for everything. It was very helpful for me to think about these things. I guess one day I will return to the forum. Thank you!

[Jadzia]

You are always welcome! :-)
And feel good about this. It is so ok to put a foot into the water and say "Hey, not right now" and don't jump in.

Love,
Jadzia