Relationships

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Kaliva
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:52 pm

Re: Relationships

Postby Kaliva » Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 pm

direct experience
I think about my thoughts
I watch what time it is
I'm tired, I'm sleepy
I'm lazy
I think about writing
I watch my hand
There is hair on the sheet
I read what I wrote, etc.
happens in thoughts
Should I wash the dishes now or tomorrow?

I'm not very sure ... at first I thought they were all direct experiences, now I'm a little confused ... Is Thinking about Thoughts a Direct Experience? Hmm ..

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Jadzia
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Re: Relationships

Postby Jadzia » Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:00 am

Thanks.
We can still break some of this down, let's be reallllly strict for once :-), just to get this crystal clear.
I think about my thoughts
Direct experience is smelling, tasting, seeing, hearing, feeling (in the sense of physical sensation) and the noticing of thoughts (It is simply noticing a thought, like in "Hey, here is a thought".)
"I think about my thoughts" is content of a thought, everything just happening in thoughts.
See, it is good to differ between noticing a thought and its content.
I watch what time it is
In DE (direct experience) this is simply seeing. What is seen and what it means is added by thought and is not DE.
I'm tired, I'm sleepy
Is there any other DE except the noticing of this thought?
I think about writing
Is there any other DE except the noticing of this thought?
I watch my hand
Ok, here is something seen. The content of thought adds the label of what is seen.
Hand is a word, does a word know what it is? Is in the word hand a real hand which can be seen?
There is hair on the sheet
Seeing+ thought adding a label and whereabouts.
I read what I wrote
Seeing+ label by thought+ time (wrote is past so thought adds time component.)

Important: A thought is DE, it can be noticed right now, but its content isn't DE.
Think of yesterdays meal, there can be a picture brought up, smell and taste remembered, all content of a thought, but you won't be able to eat it right now.

Play with this and try to break down each and everything down to the bones of DE.
Have Fun!

Love,
Jadzia

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Kaliva
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:52 pm

Re: Relationships

Postby Kaliva » Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:20 am

Hey, I'm not sure if it's fun because it scares me a little :) It seems that when we reduce everything to DE we just see, hear, feel with the body. And a lot of it happens in our minds, we set the definitions of things. For example, "I drive a car", reduced to DE = I look + I feel touch to the seat, back and arms (the road I look at and touch the car seat and the steering wheel). "Lying on the bed" = I feel touch to the body where it touches the bed ... "I read a book" = I see (letters). "I'm walking" = my knees are bent, I feel a touch of something firm in my feet. "Listening to music" = I hear (sounds) and so on .... Did I understand correctly?
Find out what really can be known and what not - have a look.
Can you know mind or can you only imagine one?
Is mind yours, is story personal?
What can we really know? It seems that these are the things we can see, touch, hear, taste ... And yet ... how do we get to know them, by defining them, labeling them, calling them words? How can we live only through direct experience? Hmm ... I thought about sex ... I attach a certain importance to what is happening - attitude towards the other, romance, love ... but is it actually rubbing two bodies? Hahaha, good ...
I want to share something with you. Two days ago we went with relatives to clean the grave of my grandparents. After we cleaned it, I started cleaning another grave, of strangers, and my daughter said to me, "Mom, why are you cleaning this grave, it belongs to strangers?" I replied: "There are no strangers here, darling, especially in death we are all one ..." And I thought about all these people in the graves, each with his personal story ... What happens to our story when we die? And does she go with us to the grave? Is our story personal? What happens to our mind when we die? Is he ours? While we are alive, we all hear, see, feel with the body ... The story of each of us is unique and yet they are so the same ... Hmm, it's interesting ...
Love, Kaliva

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Jadzia
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Re: Relationships

Postby Jadzia » Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:58 pm

DE is not a catch all, but a wonderful tool to help to discern that what is from that what is added by thoughts and to aid staying in the moment. That's it.
You might know flow situations when actions just happens, not many thoughts around - so living as just experiencing is something we all know and are used to. Nothing new.
For example, "I drive a car", reduced to DE = I look + I feel touch to the seat, back and arms (the road I look at and touch the car seat and the steering wheel). "Lying on the bed" = I feel touch to the body where it touches the bed ... "I read a book" = I see (letters). "I'm walking" = my knees are bent, I feel a touch of something firm in my feet. "Listening to music" = I hear (sounds) and so on .... Did I understand correctly?
Almost.
"I drive a car", reduced to DE = I look + I feel touch to the seat, back and arms (the road I look at and touch the car seat and the steering wheel)
Where is the I in DE? Is there one? Go and check.
In this example it is:
Looking + physical sensation + seeing
In DE "the feel touch to the seat, back and arms and touch the car seat and the steering wheel is just physical sensation all else is thoughts content, added labels.
Looking at the road is plain seeing.

Sex: physical sensation, seeing, tasting, smelling, hearing - it includes all senses and yes thoughts add to the experience.

For the moment it is just good for you to see the difference between DE and thoughts content, which isn't DE. To challenge yourself to a new way of looking at what is really there and what is fantasy, added.
While we are alive, we all hear, see, feel with the body ...
Hm.
Make a little test /excercise:
Lay down comfortably. Breathe calmly in and out. Just go to explorer mood.

There will be a lot of thoughts: I am laying on the couch/bed/whatever. My back hurts. I am hungry. There is an itch in my left ankle.
Just let thoughts do their thing, this is their job, just don't listen and go to plain simple sensing.


Can you by simply sensing know how tall you are?
Can you by using DE tell that you are lying on something or is there only a physical sensation?
Can you say how many toes you have?
Is there a body?

Do this several times and each time allow yourself to drop thoughts a bit more and only rely on the information your senses give.

Love,
Jadzia

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Kaliva
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Re: Relationships

Postby Kaliva » Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:53 pm

I understand everything with my mind that resists the idea that there is no body and there is no me ... I drive. I talk to people. I'm lying on a bed. I understand what it is about but I can't accept it. My eyes see. My body feels it. I'm someone's friend. Someone is calling me, he wants to talk to me. He wants to hear me. I tried to watch my breathing and put my thoughts aside, but it didn't work. I did not succeed. I don't have much time and peace these days but I will keep trying and sharing. To be honest, I feel angry. My thoughts tell me, "This is nonsense, how come there is no body, how come there is no me? Here I am, here I am! Here is the body, it is yours!" Love, Kaliva

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Jadzia
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Re: Relationships

Postby Jadzia » Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:51 pm

Be angry, that's ok.
The Empire strikes back.
No one said that changing the status quo goes without trouble.

Go on observing your thoughts and be on the watch out for the illogical, the moment when thoughts don't make sense - there is the opening to wonder and doubt.

Share what you find.

Love,
Jadzia

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Kaliva
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Re: Relationships

Postby Kaliva » Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:42 pm

I tried again ... I went to bed, closed my eyes and started pushing my thoughts ... I imagined a screen on which my thoughts are some signs that I can't read, they don't mean anything, I don't understand them .. I focused on exploring the sensations I felt anxious, at times I panicked that I would be able to "see that I am gone, that I do not exist" ... I opened my eyes and tried again ... and it started ... I realized that what was happening in my mind was an idea - the body, the bed, the room ... I realized that this way I can imagine everything - another body, another bed ... I realized that I can imagine that they are gone - first the body disappeared, the bed was empty ... where am I actually? The bed disappeared too ... I was in a space where there is nothing ... A wolf appeared in my imagination and I asked myself: "Does the wolf know that he is a wolf? Does he say - I am this wolf, a different wolf, this is my body? " I don't think so ... I think wolves follow their nature and instincts, I think they are one, they are wolves and there is no separate "I the wolf" ... Jadzia, I feel very strange ... I will continue to explore this.

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Jadzia
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Re: Relationships

Postby Jadzia » Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:04 pm

Do it gently and don't push yourself, make it more like an allowing.
Pushing oneself feeds the fear and this wouldn't be helpful.

Yes there are a lot of ideas, a way everything is perceived, this is what you look at, this is what leads you to what is. :-)

Love,
Jadzia

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Kaliva
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Re: Relationships

Postby Kaliva » Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:08 pm

So ... I'm thinking of one of your "Hmmm." It's about what I wrote "While we are alive, we all hear, see, feel with the body ..." Why is this "Hmmm"? What do you mean?
Similar to my awareness of wolves, I thought that this applied to all animals and all living things, respectively. Which means that not just is there no separate self from people but from everything? I go back to the idea of the basic mind and wonder if this is a mind at all? Or energy, or what? It's hard for me to cover all this, it's hard for me to imagine it ...

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Jadzia
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Re: Relationships

Postby Jadzia » Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:16 pm

The Hm might be explained by the exercise following.
Have you done it? Please do the exercise again and answer the questions.
Which means that not just is there no separate self from people but from everything?
Right, there is no separateness at all.

Right now it seems as if you get stuck in the "thinking about", building up theories, intellectual thinking. This won't help you here. What is needed is getting to the knowing, the inner knowing that is always and has been always there.

Love,
Jadzia

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Kaliva
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Re: Relationships

Postby Kaliva » Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:56 pm

Yes, I did it again. It was difficult at the beginning, but after I left the thoughts about myself and everything else raining aside, I fell into the darkness ... In my imagination I was somewhere high and I saw many people, animals below me. This time I saw a sheep grazing on grass and entered it. She didn't know it was grazing, she didn't know it was grass, she didn't even know it was a sheep. She just did things without thinking and without knowing. I asked myself, "What will happen to this sheep's mind if it dies?" A wolf reappeared and killed her. And there was nothing strange in that, nothing unusual, no bells rang, no one mourned, everything was exactly as it should be .... somewhere at the same time several lambs were born, one of them did not survive and again everything was what should be be ... I turned my mind to the wolf, he didn't know he was a wolf and he killed a sheep ... he was just doing what he was doing and there was nothing strange about it ... he didn't know what he was doing, he was just doing it ... nothing had been lost since the sheep's death, nothing had been lost, and nothing could be lost ... then I turned my mind to a bear, it was the same. She was in a cave and looking outside, but she didn't know what she was looking at, she didn't know what she was seeing, she was just looking without thinking ... then I went to a cemetery, looked at the thousands of names on the plates, but they didn't matter. What could it matter that someone died? The same as with the sheep with the difference that (here I answer my question and understand your "Hmm") people think they see, they think they hear, they think they feel, they think they are human, they think they have a body and so on. ..they think about everything, determine, have ideas about the beginning and the end ... Oooo! Lots of thinking! I saw that everything is a cycle, that nothing is lost and cannot be lost! I tried to get into a tree but I didn't succeed, hahaha, maybe it's too ambitious for now. I tried to cover things from even higher, I looked at the planet Earth, I saw other planets ... but it became too difficult for me to understand what is behind this movement? At first I thought of the word "life", but isn't death part of that? Isn't anything lost and everything is part of this movement, of this cycle? What is behind it all? I am very excited, I will keep trying :) Love, Kaliva

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Kaliva
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Re: Relationships

Postby Kaliva » Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:06 pm

I'm sorry, but I saw one of my mistakes here
She just did things without thinking and without knowing.
I meant that they don't know what they are doing and what it is, they don't think with the definitions ... But they know! They just know and do it!
I hope I have made it clearer.

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Jadzia
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Re: Relationships

Postby Jadzia » Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:37 pm

Dear Kaliva,
I loved reading what you wrote though you are walking away from the path we are offering. You are going into the vision world, which is fascinating and exciting, what we do here is so much more prosaic - it is just about the now, this very moment. It is looking for visions against training pure awareness for the moment. We are looking here at what can be found in this very moment.
So, here is the exercise again:
Lay down comfortably. Breathe calmly in and out. Just go to explorer mood.

There will be a lot of thoughts: I am laying on the couch/bed/whatever. My back hurts. I am hungry. There is an itch in my left ankle.
Just let thoughts do their thing, this is their job, just don't listen and go to plain simple sensing, as meaning the five senses of smelling, feeling (physical sensation), tasting, hearing, seeing.
Try staying with these senses and stay in the moment, try not to spread your wings, don't fly off. :-)


Can you by simply sensing know how tall you are?
Can you by using DE tell that you are lying on something or is there only a physical sensation?
Can you say how many toes you have?
Is there a body?

Love,
Jadzia

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Kaliva
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:52 pm

Re: Relationships

Postby Kaliva » Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:49 pm

Jadzia, I was in space and you bring me down to earth again, hahahaha :))) Ok, I understand, I'll try. This exercise already seems easy to me, after I almost solved the mystery of the creator :)))

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Jadzia
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Re: Relationships

Postby Jadzia » Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:14 pm

Don't let yourself be fooled by the easy - easy exercises tend to have lots of layers which can be discovered. :)

Love,
Jadzia


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