Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
DC415
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:30 pm

Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby DC415 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:40 pm

Warissem,

I appreciate your response.
Have you seen really an observer watching experience ? or is it just a thought about an observer?
I took some time to consider this and realized the observer is mind or just a thought. The observer is the one who inquires but I recognize this sense of observing is the one inquiring but still is just a thought within spaciousness. Inquiry is using this observer to in a sense challenge its validity - and in the end it has none. The only thing valid is direct experience which is not personal.
yet there is something beyond this observer that is unaffected by the experience.

This sentence is only thoughts. All what is said is not known through the five senses. Yes there are experiences and a knowing of them, there is no you doing the knowing.
Yes, this is a thought. I see that - the mind is merely trying to describe here what can't be described and there is no one that realizes it. It just is. But clearly at some level I am being hypnotized by thought.
I can admit that you used “I” to the concern of communication but you added a “small i”. Have you seen an “I” and a “small i“ in direct experience? Can a thought “I” see or do something?
Good catch! There is only one "I" or "I Am" - the sense of existence. There is only one "I" but it is also only a thought. And while something sees, hears, touches, etc. - the "I" is just a thought but is still identified with by mind at some level.
only the appearance of someone attempting to take some action to create some outcome.
Is it really an appearance or a thought about someone attempting ….?
There is a thought/desire in mind to create some outcome. There appears to be some utility in mind to manifest. It starts with the imagination that sees a potential outcome and then mind engages to generate a plan to create it. But this is just a belief or a thought. Yet, there is still resistance - there is still a desire to make something happen and I follow this desire as I attempt to direct my business to produce some outcomes I believe are important. What I see is there is no one having this desire - the desire simply appears and seems to direct actions in the direction of the desire. There is fear that says if I don't take action I will become destitute or fail in some way. At one level this is seen for what it is but it still identified with as a "me" trying to make something happen.
Is it your business, does “I” or “you” have a business? Is an “I” looking for a job or taking any actions?
Is this just not the play of the body-mind believing? It clearly appears to be happening and the challenges faced by the character "David" in the play are experienced at some level as real. That is my current experience. At the same time, I do see these are just thoughts attempting to explain what can't be explained. There is a story that is reflected out that are still identified with. That said, when I engage direct experience - the story fades and I am just here now as awareness. But even the attempt to be in "direct experience" feels as if someone is having that experience.
Are you really seeing someone in direct experience or all what you say is a thought?
You need to look at the habit of putting a subject before a verb. Raining instead of it is raining, there is working on… instead of someone is working on… Seeing is happening instead of I see. Walking is happening instead of I walk.
This is helpful - yes efforting is still happening but there is no one efforting. Desiring is happening but no one desiring. The body-mind appears to be taking specific actions towards specific outcomes. And something is very confused here ... confusion is happening for the one still trying to figure this out but that of course is just mind.
The looking is necessary to see that there is no you in the first place, there is only awareness. Awareness is not personal. The world is not of your concern. Here we are looking for you. Yes there are thoughts and feelings about the world, there is knowing of these but they are not happening to you.
This makes sense and I suppose if there is anything to 'do' it is to keep noticing how something attaches to thought and believes it to be personal, rather than an impersonal unfolding. There is greater space to see this but there is also the experience of a kind of magnetic force that re-identifies. At some level I do KNOW there is no one doing anything, that there is only what is happening with no personal self that it is happening to.
Habits and conditionings will be here after seeing through the illusion of a separate self. There is a work to be done and there are groups in facebook which can help you.

Is there a decision maker ?
Is there someone having free will?
Do you still believe that you are responsible for things happening ?
Yes, I do realize this, there is a trajectory of conditioning that will continue in this body-mind. I have had glimpses this is not me but just an unfolding that is impersonal. As for the other questions above - there is work to be done to see there is not a decision maker, there is no personal free will and no one responsible.

And if you feel I am better served by those groups on Facebook - happy to know about them. I do appreciate all you have done to support me in seeing more clearly.

David

User avatar
warissem
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby warissem » Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:35 pm

Hi David


David, I feel that you are confused. You are still going to thoughts and give long answers. You are seeking truth in the mind. You are expecting an Aha coming from discourses and imagination. No, it is not the way it works. You have to LOOK at this “I”. You will say “I” is a thought, yes. But “I” is a pointer. What is it pointing to ? Look. The word “table” points to a table which is perceived here. How about the word “I” ?
What are you David? What is “I” ? You answer after having looked at you.

Warissem

User avatar
DC415
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:30 pm

Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby DC415 » Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:42 pm

Warissem,

You say:
David, I feel that you are confused. You are still going to thoughts and give long answers. You are seeking truth in the mind.
This is true, it is confusing. While I can rest in direct experience, there is a habit of still going to the mind for answers. I have had experiences of the "I" being seen through but it is not consistent. As an executive coach, my work that requires me to teach others how to use the mind to be more effective - this may be delaying breaking free from the mind. I don't know to be honest. I have days when I must chart out "To Dos" and to take actions to produce specific results. This activity may be reinforcing me going to my mind for answers. I suppose that should not matter but there are clearly still strong tendencies to go to mind for answers.
ou are expecting an Aha coming from discourses and imagination. No, it is not the way it works. You have to LOOK at this “I”. You will say “I” is a thought, yes. But “I” is a pointer.
Is not the sense of "I" the problem? I don't understand how it is a pointer? I wish the "I" would just dissolve, it is the cause of so much suffering. But I will look as you suggest.
What are you David? What is “I” ? You answer after having looked at you.
I have been looking - I can't find David, other than as a concept. But what good does this do? I do not experience any freedom from the relentless reinforcement of the false. All I can do is keep looking till the consciousness within me awakens from its slumber. I got the pointings, when will it stick is the question? I know this is a false understanding - the one I am is already fully awake - but the fog feels very thick to see thorugh it. All I can do is my best to see through it and hope one day I will be lucky enough to see it dissolve. I have nothing to do with when and if that happens.

User avatar
warissem
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby warissem » Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:18 pm

Hi David

There are two ways which are used to see that there is no self. The one way is to look at “I”, which points to WHAT Is reading and understanding these words. It is what you call the sense of being, awareness.
The other way is to see that there is no you, no me, no separate self as you think yourself to be. This “me” is that you wish to dissolve. But how can something which does not exist be dissolved. The goal in this forum is to see that THERE IS NO YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE, there never was, there never will be.

I have been looking - I can't find David, other than as a concept.
Yes David is a concept. It has its stories, it is like Santa Klaus.

But what good does this do? I do not experience any freedom from the relentless reinforcement of the false.
When you say “ I do not experience any freedom …. “, whose freedom are you speaking about?

All I can do is keep looking till the consciousness within me awakens from its slumber.
Then there is you and consciousness. Are you aware right now ? Do you know that you know?

I got the pointings, when will it stick is the question? I know this is a false understanding - the one I am is already fully awake - but the fog feels very thick to see thorugh it. All I can do is my best to see through it and hope one day I will be lucky enough to see it dissolve. I have nothing to do with when and if that happens.
Who is going to see through the fog? Have you ever heard or read that the seeker (the one which wants to see through the fog) is what is sought.


A little illustration :
There is a folk who is passing by speaking to himself : who am I? who am I?
A man heard him and said : you are That which sees the question. The seeking does not take place at a distance from the seeker. The seeking is to let subside the attention in its source, in the seeker.


You think that seeing no self will make you free in a cling of an eye. I said in previous posts that there will be no change after seeing no self. Why ? Because there was no self before the seeing, you just believe it was. It is like a mirage in the desert. You see a mirage for the first time, you see water over there and you go to drink. When you arrive you find no water, only sand. The next time you go to the desert, you see a mirage but you KNOW for sure that there is no water. It is only an illusion.


I recommand to you to watch this video :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9AKvZgKfv8


Best wishes

Warissem

User avatar
DC415
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:30 pm

Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby DC415 » Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:32 am

Warissem,

First, thank you for Rupert's video. I can see where I am confused. It is clear that my fundamental nature is awareness. Without awareness I would not exist. I am that.

Where I see the struggle is in moving beyond the concept that this experience is limited by embodiment. I recognize that I have not exploring how it is I know things or experience things beyond the limitations of the body-mind. I believe this is where you have been pointing. Yet, as Rupert says this must be experienced - not merely understood. Understanding is of mind but the experience seems to elude me. And it is clear it eludes me because I have not earnestly examined who this knower is.
When you say “ I do not experience any freedom …. “, whose freedom are you speaking about?
I don't know. There is a longing to move beyond feeling imprisoned by the body-mind and my conditioning. The only way to do so is to investigate who the knower is and experience the recognition Rupert points to.
Who is going to see through the fog? Have you ever heard or read that the seeker (the one which wants to see through the fog) is what is sought.
Yes there is still a seeker here - trying to find itself but those are merely thoughts that deflect me from clear seeing. But paradoxically there is an investigation that the one I think myself to be must do to see through and experience the timeless, unlimited Self that I am. Or maybe I should just forget about seeking anything and just live life as it unfolds. Maybe I need to drop this entire thing and live life. My mind can't find it but my habits of going to mind are so damn strong. I feel in between a rock and a hard place. On one hand I see clearly and on another - I can't get out of believing I am an individual person. Again, I need to do the investigation into this knower or just drop the whole thing.

David

User avatar
warissem
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby warissem » Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:34 pm

Hi David
First, thank you for Rupert's video. I can see where I am confused. It is clear that my fundamental nature is awareness. Without awareness I would not exist. I am that.
You are welcome.

Where I see the struggle is in moving beyond the concept that this experience is limited by embodiment. I recognize that I have not exploring how it is I know things or experience things beyond the limitations of the body-mind. I believe this is where you have been pointing. Yet, as Rupert says this must be experienced - not merely understood. Understanding is of mind but the experience seems to elude me. And it is clear it eludes me because I have not earnestly examined who this knower is.
Yes, it seems that awareness is in the body. This “feeling” is reinforced by the fact that you are aware only in the space where the body is. In reality, you are aware of appearances through the body. But you are aware of yourself without the body. You don’t need the five senses to know that you are aware, awareness is aware of itself.
The point is that you know already what you are, awareness but it is not yet realized. There is still the ongoing of mind. You have to see the mind for what it is, a bundle of thoughts. The experience of limitlessness of awareness is already the case 24/7 but you don’t recognize it. It is plain view. Recognizing this does not mean freedom in the instant. There are a lot of tendencies and conditionings still working.

On one hand I see clearly and on another - I can't get out of believing I am an individual person.
The one which sees clearly (that is awareness) don’t believe anything. “believing I am an individual person” is a thought. You have to see it as a thought. It goes away and you are still here knowing all appearences, awareness knowing itself.

Again, I need to do the investigation into this knower or just drop the whole thing.
Is there an “I” to do the investigation and a “knower” to be investigated ?


Best wishes
Warissem

User avatar
DC415
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:30 pm

Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby DC415 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:07 pm

Warissem,

My apologies for the hiatus, I am fine. There has been the experience of feeling almost depressed over the past few weeks. It's not constant and I share more below.
The one which sees clearly (that is awareness) don’t believe anything. “believing I am an individual person” is a thought. You have to see it as a thought. It goes away and you are still here knowing all appearences, awareness knowing itself.
Yes, thoughts are not to be believed or followed. I do get this and am seeing through the falseness more than ever before. i wake up every morning and the mind starts running its program. The thoughts are mostly negative. I am watching this as it happens. I do my best to just observe the mind as well as the one who is observing the thoughts. But the down coloring of my experience has been an interesting turn in my awakening.

There is a greater sense of meaninglessness and motivation seems to not be there in the same way. This has been a bit of a struggle because things have to get done and there is less energy to take action. At the level of understanding, I know life will do what life does and there is no one doing anything. This down is akin to a storm passing through and I am more in touch with something that is not affected by it.

I sense that this is all the mind trying to grab my attention and get me to buy in again. I am doing better with letting things be and resting in awareness through all of the inner storms. it is clear these pass but i am still left with feeling almost depressed on some days.

One one hand, I do see this is just what's happening - no one is depressed. In those moments, I try to find time to just be with it and turn towards spaciousness. When I just allow it to be there and don't fight it - I feel greater freedom from it.

The mind is very distraught at times and thoughts come 'it's all falling a part" - again, I do my best to see those thoughts for what they are and focus my attention on awareness.
Is there an “I” to do the investigation and a “knower” to be investigated ?
There is a knowing that the inquirer is NOT me. Therefore the "I" doing the investigation is still identified but I suppose that's what Ramana meant when he said "the thorn that removes the thorn." That said, I am doing less earnest investigation and more simply trying to rest in awareness and watch. That said, I sense the watcher is not the real me either.

David

User avatar
warissem
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby warissem » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:09 pm

Hi David


I give you an exercise to do :

Close your eyes and tell me what is the body. Describe what is happening. Let you go for five minutes or more.

Then you answer to these questions from what you have observed :

What is called a body ?

Is there a you knowing the body ?


Warissem

User avatar
DC415
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:30 pm

Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby DC415 » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:16 pm

Warissem,

I appreciate the reflection and have been doing it.
Close your eyes and tell me what is the body. Describe what is happening. Let you go for five minutes or more.
As I explore the sensation of the body, initially there is a sense of density at the center of my awareness with space all around it. Over time this density becomes more subtle and there is a sense of expanding spaciousness that this density is contained within.
What is called a body ?
It is an object within my awareness. I am not it but the one sensing it.
Is there a you knowing the body ?
There is something that knows it is there - when I look for the one who senses or 'sees' it - it can't be located - there is just the sense of seeing it or sensing it.

That's what I discovered so far.

David

User avatar
warissem
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Ready To See Clearly and Rest As I Am

Postby warissem » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:32 am

Hi David

As I explore the sensation of the body, initially there is a sense of density at the center of my awareness with space all around it.
Is there sensation of the body as a whole or a bundle of sensations ?

When eyes are closed, does a body have limits outside of thoughts ?

When eyes are closed, does a body have a shape outside of thoughts ?

It is an object within my awareness. I am not it but the one sensing it.
Is it an object within awareness or within your awareness?

What is this “I” which is sensing the body ? Give a look at this “I”, is it really here? If so describe its shape, its color, …

There is something that knows it is there - when I look for the one who senses or 'sees' it - it can't be located - there is just the sense of seeing it or sensing it.
You said “ when I look for the one who senses or 'sees' it - it can't be located - there is just the sense of seeing it or sensing it” you are right but you also said “There is something that knows it is there”

You need to do the looking until you gain a certitude about the answer :
Even you SEE something that knows then you can describe it for me
Or you SEE nothing : there is just knowing of the body.

You need to free yourself from the habit of putting a subject before a verb.
http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/ ... guage.html


Warissem


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests