Eyes wide open

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Sat Oct 03, 2020 5:31 am

Hi Vivian,

Wow,...ok

Connect soon,
grateful for your persistence

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:22 pm

Hello Vivian,


Do everything you can to EXPERIENCE now. Not to think about the now, but experience it directly.
Can you do that? Or all you can only ever know the experience (whatever is present) but not the now itself?
Do you see that ‘now’ is just another concept, which doesn’t contain any experience? Just an empty word?
Yes I can see what you are pointing too, There is really only a present experience, I can't be sure, but it feels like this idea of 'now' arises to place experience somewhere, because the present moment has no landing pad, so to speak. There is no 'where' in this direct experience. Disorientation also arises.
It’s not possible to experience anything else than what is here.
Can you see this?
Yes
OK. So you want that this fictional character called me have different experiences than what is normally happening.
Yes, truthfully, so it appears,..at times, there are thoughts and ideas that are clearly not seen through at the moment of arising, that are not seen for what they are, thoughts arising..
But can you find anything else than life itself?
and despite getting caught at times and not recognizing what is happening, there can also be this experience of this is the only thing happening, life itself.
Is there someone separate from life, who could experience it differently? With more wonder and appreciation
In this present experience, the question is mute. there is no one to be separate in experience.

But seeing that there is no separate self other than an idea, and not resisting are two different things.
If you are looking for life with minimal resistance, that is entirely different question.
Realising no self does not mean resistance is off. It means seeing that resistance is too part of life, and it is happening.
No self means points to the actuality of everything being a happening, not a doing, that life is flowing freely, without I as a manager.
Resistance is flowing freely too, is it not?
Are you making reactions happen or they show up?
Sincerely I can rest and see that, yes its only resistance appearing. Yet, at times Sincerely, there is a recognition as well, I get caught when the resistance to an experience of Dullness, lack of perceived dullness arises, perhaps this is a thought, there is something wrong with me, I should be feeling more sensitivity in the body to my surroundings, and or experience, belief about how the universe should be showing up For "Me" In "Me". (This is a sticky one), all the Chakra talk, and listening to the heart, ext... though I hear your statement of no prerequisites..This feels very imbedded. This is when I wish I had very little exposure to the spiritual search,

How can there be moments of authentic seeing, being with "what Is", no where so to speak, and yet continually get caught?
I can't even describe what's happening at times without language dividing and separating and failing to describe what seems to happen at times , then not.
Exasperation is this present moment experience....
Resistance

It just seems to be happening..
Does this experience requires any direction?
No
Does this experience here-now, requires any meaning?
No , the question feels mute, it makes no sense in this regard.
What happens to the notion of direction and meaning if you stop thinking about them?/quote]

There is no necessity for such things.


A question ..observation , ramblings..
Is there anyone noticing this moment to moment appearing?, or is there just appearing?
How does noticing go to appearing?
It seems this cannot be 'done' by so one, it just has to Happen..

Janet

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Vivien
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Vivien » Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:40 am

Hi Janet,
Yet, at times Sincerely, there is a recognition as well, I get caught when the resistance to an experience of Dullness, lack of perceived dullness arises, perhaps this is a thought, there is something wrong with me, I should be feeling more sensitivity in the body to my surroundings, and or experience, belief about how the universe should be showing up For "Me" In "Me". (This is a sticky one), all the Chakra talk, and listening to the heart, ext... though I hear your statement of no prerequisites..This feels very imbedded. This is when I wish I had very little exposure to the spiritual search,
Next time when these thoughts show up again, please check, are you thinking them?
Are you the thinker of these thoughts? Or these thoughts are just showing up automatically?
How do you make the decision to think these thoughts?

How can there be moments of authentic seeing, being with "what Is", no where so to speak, and yet continually get caught?
This flip-flopping is normal, it happens to almost everybody at the beginning. Every flopping back just shows that there is more work to do, more things to be looked at.
A question ..observation , ramblings..
Is there anyone noticing this moment to moment appearing?, or is there just appearing?
How does noticing go to appearing?
It seems this cannot be 'done' by so one, it just has to Happen..
Look, is there a noticer or an observer here now? Or observing / noticing just happens on its own, just as everything else?

Is there something separate form experience which could observe it?
If yes, where is it? Is it outside of experience? Where?

What is that doesn’t happen on its own? Is there anything that is not automatic?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:59 pm

Thank You,

It is helpful to hear you say flipflopping is normal, it feels easy for me to get caught in the belief of all or nothing and doubting moments of clarity.

connect soon :)
Janet

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Fri Oct 09, 2020 3:07 pm

Next time when these thoughts show up again, please check, are you thinking them?
Are you the thinker of these thoughts? Or these thoughts are just showing up automatically?
No, It seems that the thoughts are just part of what is showing up.
Look, is there a noticer or an observer here now? Or observing / noticing just happens on its own, just as everything else?
Is there something separate form experience which could observe it?
No on close examination (even this statement suggests observer) there seems to be no separate observer, in noticing, it seems as though its just knowing/being, for lack of better terms.

I
If yes, where is it? Is it outside of experience? Where?
Its not outside of experience.
What is that doesn’t happen on its own? Is there anything that is not automatic?
Only when I completely slow down do I see this, beyond that, I begin to use thought to recognize if I have been aware of being or not, then I am thinking, Thoughts about perceived events, so yes I can never not be present...this too, is just showing up.
How do you make the decision to think these thoughts?
I don't, I do nothing, there is no doing, they seem to happen

My apologies for late response, its been a very busy and challenging week at work, sadly with speed, it seems recognition escapes me, although, from my experience at times, this can't be true, but that is not how it feels,... this is just present moment feelings...there is only this..wish this recognition was consistent

Thank You,
Janet

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Vivien
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Vivien » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:27 am

Hi Janet,

Let’s start investigating control.

Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch very carefully.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Is a thought moving the hand? If yes, how?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

When the head of a sunflower turns to the sun, what is moving the flower?
Is there a ‘mover’ somewhere inside the flower to turn its head?

When the hand is turning up and down, is there a ‘mover’ hidden somewhere inside the hand or the body performing the movement?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:39 pm

Thank You,

connect soon :)

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:49 pm

Hello Vivian,
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Is a thought moving the hand? If yes, how?
In my direct experience of the had, thought itself is not moving the hand, Though at times Things happen so quick it appears that thought is prior to action or linked in all honesty
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?
Again in my direct experience a controller can not be found
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
No separate individual
When the head of a sunflower turns to the sun, what is moving the flower?
Is there a ‘mover’ somewhere inside the flower to turn its head?
This I can't know, I suspect not
When the hand is turning up and down, is there a ‘mover’ hidden somewhere inside the hand or the body performing the movement?
No. in my direct experience, one can not be found

thanks,
Janet

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Vivien
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Vivien » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:21 am

Hi Janet,
Though at times Things happen so quick it appears that thought is prior to action or linked in all honesty
And then what? Just because the movement is being preceded by a thought, does it mean that the thought made the body move?
There is a thought “I am going to move my left hand”, and then the hand moves.
But is there an actual OBSERVABLE link between the thought and the moment?
Or the link is only assumed without any base in reality?
No. in my direct experience, one can not be found
So the supposed mover cannot be found, or there is simply NO mover at all?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:56 am

Hello Vivian :)
And then what? Just because the movement is being preceded by a thought, does it mean that the thought made the body move?
No thoughts don't in and of themselves move the body, The body can move even when contrary thoughts to the movement are happening, or for that matter, when there seems to no thoughts at all.

But is there an actual OBSERVABLE link between the thought and the moment?
Or the link is only assumed without any base in reality?
Yes there seems to be a lot of assumptions, it appears the body moves a tremendous amount without direct thought occurring. Actual observable link is often not present.

So the supposed mover cannot be found, or there is simply NO mover at all?
It seems there is just movement. when movement is happening in the whole body as in walking, it feels more apparent that there is just movement, when the hand is observed with sight this experience is almost confusing, there feels like a watcher,
Eyes closed, there is only movement.

Janet

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Vivien
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Vivien » Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:11 am

Hi Janet,
Yes there seems to be a lot of assumptions, it appears the body moves a tremendous amount without direct thought occurring. Actual observable link is often not present.
Observable link between thought and movement OFTEN not present, or NEVER present?

Isn’t any link is just a logical conclusion based on that one event follows the other?

Without any thought, does the idea of a link or cause and effect appear at all?

when movement is happening in the whole body as in walking, it feels more apparent that there is just movement, when the hand is observed with sight this experience is almost confusing, there feels like a watcher,
OK, let’s look into this.
Watch how the hands move, but instead focusing on the movement, focus on the watcher.

Where is this watcher in this very moment?
Are the sensations labelled ‘eyes’ the watcher?
Or is the sensation called ‘head’ the watcher?

Is there a watcher at all? Or the watcher is just assumed by the dualistic nature of language?

When it’s raining, is there an it that is raining, a rainer? Or just raining happening?

When the hands move, is there a mover, or just movement happening?

When the movements are noticed, is there a noticer or a watcher separate from the movement, or knowing of the moment is inherent inseparably in the movement itself?

there feels like a watcher,
You say “FEELS LIKE” – so describe this FEELING of a watcher. How is a watcher felt?
What kind of feeling is this?
Where is this feeling located?

And what is feeling this feeling of a watcher?


Please make sure that you don’t go to theories and conclusions, rather describe the raw feeling itself.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:18 am

OK,
thank you,

the raw feeling....

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:10 pm

Hello Vivian, :)
Observable link between thought and movement OFTEN not present, or NEVER present?
Isn’t any link is just a logical conclusion based on that one event follows the other?
Without any thought, does the idea of a link or cause and effect appear at all?
Yes it is true without any thought observable link is impossible, This movement is just happening.
Where is this watcher in this very moment?
Are the sensations labelled ‘eyes’ the watcher?
Or is the sensation called ‘head’ the watcher?
There is no watcher in the movement. Sensations, labelled eyes, are not a watcher, there is only perception, or so it seems, if I close my eye lids, the movement disappears. But appearing. and not appearing. do not equate to a Watcher. They are appearances. Sensations labelled as Head are just that, sensation, with a label.
You say “FEELS LIKE” – so describe this FEELING of a watcher. How is a watcher felt?
What kind of feeling is this?
Where is this feeling located?
There is no feeling of Watcher, with the exception of location, I get stuck in a feeling sense, of location. Hand movement there, from space here, so to speak,
If I rest in a still spot, the location aspect gets lost, things for lack of a better word, things or perception of things feel or appear more encompassing. Its like the movement, thing called a 'Hand moving' enters into a space or is disruptive and the watcher becomes apparent. Frustration arises!

As each question is taken and observed, it seems that there is no watcher, no watcher in hand movement itself, nor in sensations of the body , just perception, however perception of movement, really impacts this feeling of being in a location. From this observation I begin to doubt this whole process. Is this more encompassing unified experience ( when resting in stillness)just some kind of perceptual trick? Perhaps I an waiting for something to 'click'

I am going through a challenging time right now and see how this Identification of a self makes somethings so much more painful, This identification, springs forth the need for 'Meaning in a life' a concept rife with difficulty. Resting in what is, is so momentary, and there is no question of meaning, when just being.

Thanks,
Janet

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Vivien
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:00 am

Hi Janet,
There is no watcher in the movement. Sensations, labelled eyes, are not a watcher, there is only perception, or so it seems, if I close my eye lids, the movement disappears. But appearing. and not appearing. do not equate to a Watcher. They are appearances. Sensations labelled as Head are just that, sensation, with a label.
Nice observations.
If I rest in a still spot
What is it that could rest in a still point?
Is there an Janet separate from that still point, so she can go there and rest there?
Or there is only one seamless experience and only thoughts divide it into parts, and calling one part as a still point, and another part as me, who is resting in that seeming still point?
As each question is taken and observed, it seems that there is no watcher, no watcher in hand movement itself, nor in sensations of the body , just perception, however perception of movement, really impacts this feeling of being in a location.
So there is a seeming sense of location. That’s OK.
The question is: Is there a me, an entity there at that sense of location?
Is there an entity sitting there?
Or is this just a sense of location, and that’s all? Without housing Janet?
I am going through a challenging time right now and see how this Identification of a self makes somethings so much more painful, This identification, springs forth the need for 'Meaning in a life' a concept rife with difficulty. Resting in what is, is so momentary, and there is no question of meaning, when just being.
Can the concern of ‘meaning of life’ come up without thinking about it?
What happens to meaning if there are no thoughts about it?


And is there someone separate from life, owning it, and now wanting to have a meaning for its life?
Is there a me + life?
And I need a meaning to MY life?
Or there is only life… no me, no my… just life as it is…. appearing moment by moment, constantly changing, moving?


Some years ago, I wrote a blog post about trying to find the meaning of life. Please have a look. It might help.
https://fadingveiling.com/2014/07/15/wh ... g-of-life/


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:37 am

Hello Vivian :)

What is it that could rest in a still point?
There is only stillness
Is there an Janet separate from that still point, so she can go there and rest there?
Or there is only one seamless experience and only thoughts divide it into parts, and calling one part as a still point, and another part as me, who is resting in that seeming still point?
Yes it is thinking that creates division "I" doesn't appear outside of thinking itself.
The question is: Is there a me, an entity there at that sense of location?
Is there an entity sitting there?
Or is this just a sense of location, and that’s all? Without housing Janet?
Yes, it appears there can seem to be a location, but does someone, in this case "Janet" inherently exist inside this location? No, I can see this now..
Can the concern of ‘meaning of life’ come up without thinking about it?
What happens to meaning if there are no thoughts about it?
The question cannot arise, it simply is mute, the question has no context.
And is there someone separate from life, owning it, and now wanting to have a meaning for its life?
Is there a me + life?,
No

And I need a meaning to MY life?
Or there is only life… no me, no my… just life as it is…. appearing moment by moment, constantly changing, moving
Yes,there appears to be only life as it is..there is no distress in this.

Thank you,
Janet


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