Eyes wide open

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Vivien
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Vivien » Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:00 am

Hi Janet,
What is the old saying..... Familiarity breeds contempt, only I can see that, when a particular thing,( Images thoughts, feelings) are experienced with a senses of consistency it can solidify into a something, in this case, 'Janet'. It is only upon close examination that just because there is a sense of familiarity it doesn't mean there is anything other than the experience itself of familiarity.
Yes, nice observation.

How do you even know if something is familiar?
What is providing the information of ‘familiarity’? The sensation? Or only thoughts?


Let’s go back to a previous pointer.

What do you do in order to think?
How do you make (or birth) a thought into existence?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:34 pm

Hello Vivian, :)
How do you even know if something is familiar?
Remembering, yes, thinking...
What is providing the information of ‘familiarity’? The sensation? Or only thoughts?
absolutely, only thoughts...
What do you do in order to think?
Be still, 'Do' nothing..
How do you make (or birth) a thought into existence?
"I" do nothing, they arise..

My thinking is defining this familiarity, memory,
What is memory? all my senses are connected to memory, Hmmm. but that doesn't mean there is a person behind this reflex, or this process of keeping this organism alive, it is still thought, I also feel, it is possible the body itself has memory cellularly, plant like :O,
at type of intelligence, but again, is this 'Me'? , where is Janet? in these cells.. No Janet is not to be found..

Janet

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Vivien
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:45 am

Hi Janet,
What is memory? all my senses are connected to memory,
What do you mean by ‘all senses are connected to memory”?
Hmmm. but that doesn't mean there is a person behind this reflex, or this process of keeping this organism alive, it is still thought, I also feel, it is possible the body itself has memory cellularly, plant like :O,
This is an intellectual speculation.

What is the experience of ‘cellular memory’? How does it appear?
What is the experience of cells? Is there any?

at type of intelligence,
Isn’t the word of ‘intelligence’ just another word, trying to explain the unexplainable? :)

Let’s investigate what memory is (and isn’t).

What is memory exactly? – please don’t go to thought explanation, but just let a memory be there, and look at it…
What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?


Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?


Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?


Please spend lot of time with EACH question… Look very carefully… Look at what actually going on and not what thoughts say… but what actually is.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:51 am

Thank you,
I will look at each one, slowly..

Janet

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Vivien
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:36 am

all right, take your time :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:03 am

Hello Vivian,

just letting you know I am still working with these questions,
certainly for some of them, it seems very difficult as the mind wants to make sense of the questions and simply can't.
I notice this tendency, and come back to 'being' with the question.

connect soon
janet

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:57 pm

Good Day,
Vivian, I am giving you my post answers and we can work from here on our skype session and see how it feels
:)



What do you mean by ‘all senses are connected to memory”?
What I was referring to is that all experience can be stored as memory. I don't know the logistics of this and yes its a thought or an assumption based on some level of observation. Things are not fresh so to speak.
What is the experience of ‘cellular memory’? [/quote
]How does it appear?
I can not know in a moment if it is cellular it simply arrises, now.
What is the experience of cells? Is there any?
there is no experience of cells..when resting with experience, I can not find cells per say
Isn’t the word of ‘intelligence’ just another word, trying to explain the unexplainable? :)What is memory exactly? – please don’t go to thought explanation, but just let a memory be there, and look at it…
I honestly can't find memory itself, I can only find a sense of familiarity,
What is the memory ‘made of’?
can't find what memory is made of
When does memory appear?
memory itself doesn't appear, but rather an experience I am having in a moment, now, ends up being labelled as memory. It's not appearing in time,as in 'when'
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
There isn't a difference they are thoughts that appear in a moment. Its seems these thoughts are appearances 'Now, but somehow it seems that there is an awareness of familiarity that creeps in.. an awareness that this thought, picture ext. is familiar. clarity is sporadic...somtimes its thoughts just "Now", for example when I picture a friends face. I can see its 'Now" but this knowledge of familiarity seems to be known, somehow...I am stuck...

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

can't seem to get clarity, I don't know, but again stuck with, thinking/feeling this has been recognized before.

so the question of a future thought, this is where I get confused even more! I am not sure if I am able to even understand the question. I feel like I can't go in the future as there is only this moment, yet apart of me recognizes a past ,'Now' , but can't fully get it,

I am hoping skype session will be helpful for me :)
What is the future thought ‘made of’?
This really threw me, I can't see a future thought
WHEN does the future thought appear?
can't be in future, it doesn't exist now....
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
Perhaps you mean thought of the future?..

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

see you soon,
Janet

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Vivien
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:21 am

Hi Janet,
can't find what memory is made of
A memory is made of a thought. Nothing else.
All there is to a memory as a presently appearing thought (verbal + visual).
And just another thoughts label certain thoughts as a memory.
Can you see this?


There is no experience of a thought being a memory. Memory is nothing else than a thought label on other thoughts.
Only a thought is interpreting a thought as memory.

And this is the same with familiarity. All familiarity is just a thought label.
memory itself doesn't appear, but rather an experience I am having in a moment, now, ends up being labelled as memory. It's not appearing in time,as in 'when'
But there is no such thing as a memory appearing.
There are only the current thoughts (verbal + visual).
And just other thoughts label them as ‘memories’.

And all these thoughts that are labelled as memory is appearing NOW.
All thoughts about the past are here now.
Just as all thoughts about the future is here now.

There is nowhere else to go or be than here now. Can you see this?
Can you see that all there is this very moment, whatever is happening here now?


The past is just a thought.
The future is just a thought.
There is nothing else to them. Can you see this?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:15 am

hello,
Vivian

There is nowhere else to go or be than here now. Can you see this?
Yes
Can you see that all there is this very moment, whatever is happening here now?
yes
The past is just a thought.
The future is just a thought.
There is nothing else to them. Can you see this?
yes, they are just thoughts of past and future happening Now, there is only now, all can only happen ,Now
And just another thoughts label certain thoughts as a memory.
Can you see this?
I see identification, yes a label you might say but this too, is happening, Now. identification is a thought.
Is suggesting some kind of storage (memory), the same as suggesting an individual? The recognition is still appearing Now and at no other place or moment.

When I think of a family member who has died, There is a remembering of their appearance. However There is a recognition that this is present seeing, and not a seeing that is anywhere else, but in this moment.
does that provide a clue for you to see where I am at?

Janet

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Vivien
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:16 am

Hi Janet,
When I think of a family member who has died, There is a remembering of their appearance. However There is a recognition that this is present seeing, and not a seeing that is anywhere else, but in this moment.
Yes, this is what I was pointing to.

Please investigate these:

Without referring to past, can you know who you are?
Without using thought, can you say who or what you are, really?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:30 am

Hello Vivian,

great questions,
connect soon

Thank you
Janet

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:15 pm

Hello Vivian,
Without referring to past, can you know who you are?
No, There is no sense, or shall I say frame of reference from which to identify. As I type, its a type of duality? from which I arrive at a 'Me". 'This" becomes something, because of 'that', always in relation to something so to speak...

Without using thought, can you say who or what you are, really?
No, not only can I not say who I am, it cannot be said where I am at all. This feels both a little exciting and frightening at the same time. However it feels apparent that I can only touch the edge of this, there is no doubt a feeling of this, but it seems can't be sustained, nor does it send me into a state of Bulling me over, ....I think I have ideas or expectations about how all this should be/feel/understood perhaps..

Thank you,
Janet

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Vivien
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Vivien » Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:26 am

Hi Janet,
I think I have ideas or expectations about how all this should be/feel/understood perhaps..
So what kind of ideas or expectations you have?

What is it that you expect other than noticing what is here and now, as it is?


Please write a list.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Sat Oct 03, 2020 4:13 am

Hello Vivian,
What is it that you expect other than noticing what is here and now, as it is?
Here is my list, its not exhaustive, and as with so many things, much is undetected

I really thought I would feel a little lighter, so to speak, shift maybe, not extreme but not so subtle as not to be noticed, in my movement throughout the day, a quite sense of ease. Not extreme, but quiet, again, no so quiet not to notice.

The sense of NOW would be more apparent, throughout the day.
Perhaps a bit more appreciation and wonder of life itself.

Less worry about life, the appearance of what I might define as faith, not in a traditional sense but in a manner that speaks to having more acceptance of what is, less worry about how things will work out so to speak,

Lack of direction, and meaning, would feel less difficult.

I am compelled to say that its not that my life is miserable, I seem to possess the skills of living and coping that viewed by some, would be considered fairly well adjusted. Its just that the observation of a self just is held in such question and feels so rooted for misery.

Janet

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Vivien
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Vivien » Sat Oct 03, 2020 5:12 am

Hi Janet,
I really thought I would feel a little lighter, so to speak, shift maybe, not extreme but not so subtle as not to be noticed, in my movement throughout the day, a quite sense of ease. Not extreme, but quiet, again, no so quiet not to notice.
But who would feel lighter? Janet, the character in the story?
Can Batman feel lighter? Is there an actual real Batman in the story of Batman?


The feeling of lightness might happen or now. Or it might be in one moment, but absent in the next.
However the presence or absence of feeling of lightness is not the indicator if the self is seen through or not.
Seeing no self is self-evident. It doesn’t need any by-products.
By products might come or not.
But they are not prerequisites.

I recently wrote a blog post about the same topic:
https://fadingveiling.com/2020/09/17/se ... awakening/
The sense of NOW would be more apparent, throughout the day.
The sense of now? This is clearly a big expectation. If you look closely, you can discover that there is no such thing as the sense of now. The now cannot be sensed, since it’s just a concept. A concept which is part of another concept ‘time’. Now is something that is supposedly located between past and future.

Do everything you can to EXPERIENCE now. Not to think about the now, but experience it directly.
Can you do that? Or all you can only ever know the experience (whatever is present) but not the now itself?
Do you see that ‘now’ is just another concept, which doesn’t contain any experience? Just an empty word?


Or if I put it differently… all there is is what is presently here.
It’s not possible to experience anything else than what is here.
Can you see this?

And yet, I’m going to give you the pointer of look here and now. But by now I just mean what is here, THIS experience.
Perhaps a bit more appreciation and wonder of life itself.
OK. So you want that this fictional character called me have different experiences than what is normally happening.

But can you find anything else than life itself?
Is there someone separate from life, who could experience it differently? With more wonder and appreciation?

Less worry about life, the appearance of what I might define as faith, not in a traditional sense but in a manner that speaks to having more acceptance of what is, less worry about how things will work out so to speak,
This expectation is based on the idea that worry is the result in the belief of a self. As if a self were needed to resist of what is. As if a self were needed to suffer.

But seeing that there is no separate self other than an idea, and not resisting are two different things.
If you are looking for life with minimal resistance, that is entirely different question.

Realising no self does not mean resistance is off. It means seeing that resistance is too part of life, and it is happening.
No self means points to the actuality of everything being a happening, not a doing, that life is flowing freely, without I as a manager.

Resistance is flowing freely too, is it not?
Are you making reactions happen or they show up?

Lack of direction, and meaning, would feel less difficult.
But who would have direction and meaning? Do you see that these ideas arise on the assumption that there is a me who needs direction and meaning?
What if direction and meaning just more ideas, just more concepts, without any actual roots in reality, in what IS?


Look here now.
Does this experience requires any direction?
Does this experience here-now, requires any meaning?

What happens to the notion of direction and meaning if you stop thinking about them?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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