Eyes wide open

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Vivien
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Vivien » Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:27 am

Hi Janet,
Exploring the thinking process is an area that is challenging for me. I suspect I give to much credit to thoughts and struggle to "see" the process of thought in itself. The use of logic and the thought process has been a strong pattern to kept this "self" protected, and my ability to see through it, feels challenging, though there is a deep determination.
That’s good if you have a deep determination :) giving too much credit for thoughts is a human condition. Actually, mainly it’s thought that is creating the illusion of the separate self. So we have to dive deeper.
I began to ask myself just because there is the appearance of continuity or cause and effect, does this necessarily mean that There is a "me" doing it?
Good question. When a tree grows, is there someone making the tree growing? Is there a tree grower? When the wind blows, is there a blower? Is there a rainer? A weather maker? A snow producer?

Yes, we can say that there is cause and effect, but saying that there is an enduring individual to make things happen is just a leap of faith, not reality.

Try an experiment.

Try to create a thought. Any thought, from scratch. What do you find?

Do you notice how thoughts seem to appear, hang around for a while and somehow pass, and then the next thought come?

What is making thoughts to appear?

Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:57 pm

Hello Vivian,

Received the post and have answered the questions and just want to rest with them today.
Is it possible for us to assume I might take a couple of days to come back with responses? I don't want to rush this. I am grateful for this opportunity. If I respond in a days turn around, its because I feel clear and feel I can move forward, trusting my experience and not my head is a work in progress. Is this fine for you?

I will connect shortly,

Thank you,

Janet

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Vivien
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Vivien » Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:30 pm

Yes, of course. Post when you feel ready.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:53 am

Try to create a thought. Any thought, from scratch. What do you find?
Thoughts seem to appear in the whole, not in fragments so to speak, as in particles. Thoughts including words and pictures don't appear to be substances coming together, as in appearing from scratch. They sometimes appear from what seems to be nothing, yet rise close to a prior experience or not at all. they also seem to have a looping sensation, feeling, thought , feeling, thought. Can thoughts live beyond this living experience? Its seems I can't be sure of their origins. If thoughts arise from this living existence then how do I create existence from scratch. I can't or don't create existence. I can't find it, life or existence can't be seen. Thoughts seem more like outcomes. like leaves on a tree and who's roots are connected everywhere to the earth and other trees around it. these leaves(thoughts are not "me" or "Mine" though they seem to arise out of this body/mind.
Do you notice how thoughts seem to appear, hang around for a while and somehow pass, and then the next thought come?
Yes, I can't determine what is going on with this, some thoughts seem to be in rhythm with what is happening, and at other times more random, moving and changing.
What is making thoughts to appear?
At the root, I can't find the origin, the maker per say, I want to say electrical impulses from the brain, a process....
Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?
Not sure what this means, No thoughts will come eventually, I still feel I have some control though, I feel like I can manipulate what I think or slow thoughts coming in by doing certain practices, though I must be aware first, it cannot happen prior to arising, as I can't see what is arising prior to its existence , so No I guess it can't be done? but inevitably thoughts arise in some fashion, even the thoughts to manipulate thoughts!, so in a way they will always find a way to appear. who is controlling this, I still can't shake this idea at times depending what is going on. sometimes it appears as not me but rather a consequence/ outcome, process, other times it still feels like I am in control. There is a I who can change this thinking.

I hope these answers are not to convoluted to understand, I feel like there is no progress in the fundamental seeing through of an agent. Even if something is recognized as a process. I can't seem to get myself out of the equation.

Doubt arises...

Kindly
Janet

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Vivien
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Vivien » Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:11 am

Hi Janet,
Can thoughts live beyond this living experience? Its seems I can't be sure of their origins. If thoughts arise from this living existence then how do I create existence from scratch.
What do you mean by ‘living experience’ and ‘living existence’? Are you referring to the body as a living organism? Or what exactly?

You couldn’t find a source of thoughts, right?
Then what makes you think that thoughts arise from ‘living existence’?
Thoughts seem more like outcomes. like leaves on a tree and who's roots are connected everywhere to the earth and other trees around it. these leaves(thoughts are not "me" or "Mine" though they seem to arise out of this body/mind.
OK. So what you are talking here is an analogy. Now how it actually is, but rather a metaphor.

How do you know that thoughts arise from body-mind?

Can you actually observe thoughts arising from the body? Or is this just an assumption?

And can you literally observe thoughts arising from a mind? Or is this just another assumption?

What is mind, here now, as you observe it?
How big it is? What shape it has? Color? Texture? Temperature? Does it have a smell or a taste?
Where is the location of this mind? Where is it?

At the root, I can't find the origin, the maker per say, I want to say electrical impulses from the brain, a process....
Saying that the root of thoughts are electrical impulses of the brain, is a learned intellectual knowledge.
This is not something we experience. This is something we believe in, which comes as a second-hand information.

With this inquiry we cannot rely on any beliefs, even the scientific ones.
Rather we have to investigate our experience, here-and-now, in this very moment.
As a first-hand experience, and not something learned from others.
I hope these answers are not to convoluted to understand, I feel like there is no progress in the fundamental seeing through of an agent. Even if something is recognized as a process. I can't seem to get myself out of the equation.
We’ve just started the investigation. We are only on the second page. There are many beliefs holding together the self-illusion, and one of the most important ones are thoughts, and especially the belief that I am the thinker and I have control over thoughts.

We are going to look at everything that comes up, we are doing in a step-by-step fashion. So this will take some time.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:26 pm

Hello Vivien,

What do you mean by ‘living experience’ and ‘living existence’? Are you referring to the body as a living organism? Or what exactly?
There is a sense of aliveness, only aliveness. Don't know a different word. Not sure what to say about question. I am at a loss to describe what I mean. I can't answer my own description. I don't know how or what it means to exist.
How can I know, I exist?
You couldn’t find a source of thoughts, right?
Then what makes you think that thoughts arise from ‘living existence’?
No, I could not find where thoughts arise from.
How do you know that thoughts arise from body-mind?
I don't, Its an assumption
What is mind, here now, as you observe it?
How big it is? What shape it has? Color? Texture? Temperature? Does it have a smell or a taste?
Where is the location of this mind? Where is it?
There is an assumption that thoughts are a mind somehow, so thoughts are a assumed mind. Thoughts seem to appear inside 'Me', this head somehow. I struggle to 'see' thoughts appearing, like some people, There is a recognition that they are present, and not sure how I detect them, When they can be seen , I guess this is another form of thinking? imagination?...
Not even sure I can even know what a thought is.

It seems mind or thought can't be seen, only if imagined. Its like thinking about thinking

Janet

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Vivien
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Vivien » Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:31 am

Hi Janet,
There is a sense of aliveness, only aliveness. Don't know a different word. Not sure what to say about question. I am at a loss to describe what I mean. I can't answer my own description. I don't know how or what it means to exist.
How can I know, I exist?
Yes, there is a sense of existence, a sense if I amness.
I just wanted to know that you don’t mistake the body for this sense of existence, amness or isness.
I struggle to 'see' thoughts appearing, like some people, There is a recognition that they are present, and not sure how I detect them, When they can be seen , I guess this is another form of thinking? imagination?...
The presence of a thought can be known, just as the presence of a sensation. None of them are physical, and yet they both can be known when they are there.
It seems mind or thought can't be seen, only if imagined. Its like thinking about thinking
Yes. Mind is an imagined origin and placeholder of thoughts.
We believe that thoughts are produced in and coming from a mind.

But when we look closer, it turns out that there is no such thing as an actual mind, there are only the presently appearing thoughts. Can you see this?

Is there mind outside of words that speak of one?
Is there mind independent of thoughts that are imagined to come from a ‘mind’?


Here is an interesting exercise.
Sit down, close your eyes, and think of a flower.

How does the visual thought of a flower arrive? Is it your doing?
What do you do EXACTLY for an image of a flower to appear?
How do you make that happen?

Is there a storage place somewhere hidden where all the visual thoughts of flowers are stored, and you go there and you choose and pick which one do you want to think of?

If not, how does that particular flower appear from all the possible flowers that could have appeared? What do you do EXACTLY to make that happen?

Are you the chooser of the color?
What do you do EXACTLY to the flower to be a certain color?
Do you make the color to happen?

And what about its size and shape? Is the size and shape your doing?

Can you observe a mind, or an I, or a self creating the image of a flower?


Please experiment with this several times before replying.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:54 am

Thank You very much, I shall reply in a few days.

Janet

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Vivien
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Vivien » Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:57 am

All right, have a nice day :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:32 am

But when we look closer, it turns out that there is no such thing as an actual mind, there are only the presently appearing thoughts. Can you see this?
Yes
How does the visual thought of a flower arrive? Is it your doing?
What do you do EXACTLY for an image of a flower to appear?
How do you make that happen?
It appears that there is no doing when it comes to the thought process. The terminology 'how' and 'do' don't appear applicable, and 'making' sounds equally not appropriate applicable. Thoughts happen but in the moment when thoughts are really slowed down., there are just thoughts happening. they appear.
Is there a storage place somewhere hidden where all the visual thoughts of flowers are stored, and you go there and you choose and pick which one do you want to think of?
No, one comes up after another, not knowing what will come next.
they appear from moment to moment unknow to each other so to speak.
This applies to any color, pattern, shape or size.
What I do notice is they are often pictures derived from a previous experience or a conglomeration of previous experienced sights, not so fresh so to speak. not sure what to think of that... :( working with a simple exercise like this helps to recognize what's happening easier.

Can you observe a mind, or an I, or a self creating the image of a flower?
No when attention is on what is really happening,(thoughts appearing) there is no one creating it.

I find that when doing this exercise even the language "flower" begins to be seen through. The words at times really start to seem absurd, FLOWER is just a symbol for something I don't know....a bit of a side note, I enjoy the feeling of seeing that it is a bit unreal in a way.

thank you,
Janet

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Vivien
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Vivien » Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:43 am

Hi Janet,

You did a nice investigation :)
What I do notice is they are often pictures derived from a previous experience or a conglomeration of previous experienced sights, not so fresh so to speak. not sure what to think of that... :(
OK. So you observed a phenomenon.

But does it necessary to know why is this happening? Is there a need to know it? Or is it OK to say that the ‘why’ is unknown?

In the following day, investigate:

Are you the thinker of thoughts?

Is there any control over any thought?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:42 am

Hello. :)

connect soon ..

Janet

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:46 pm

Hello Vivian,

I just wanted to let you know I thought I had already posted, actually I attempted earlier and wondered why you hadn't responded. I had to go quickly after I sent the last response and obviously it wasn't sent. I think this was a good thing. my first answers showed me that I believe there is a process in thinking that gets me stuck in the position of someone looking at thoughts themselves. when I am asked to look or see thoughts 'I' attempt to see them and this has a re-enforcing quality to it, and as I don't naturally spell well, I get tangled in a process of looking at something with strain, perhaps subtly, re-enforcing a object/ person who is trying to see or view thoughts. I like the "how" in things, but could this re-enforce a someone looking at something? an approach not being asked?..

Back to the questions, ( i just wanted to give you context or inform you, if this provides or has any value for this exploration, I can get very tripped up.

But does it necessary to know why is this happening? Is there a need to know it? Or is it OK to say that the ‘why’ is unknown?
Yes, its fine to just say the 'Why' is unknown,
Its this idea of how is does this work? what is going on here. It doesn't feel like a why, it doesn't feel causal
Are you the thinker of thoughts?
If I reframe the question to say, Can I find who is thinking, my answer is no, but if I try to answer, are you the thinker of thoughts? then I get messed up, thoughts seem to appear too, or are noticed by 'me'. this might sound crazy but this seems to be is what is happening :0
Is there any control over any thought?
Again, if I ask, Can I find who is controlling the thoughts the answer is no, but when the question is, Is there any control over thoughts then, it feels more difficult, particularly when thoughts appear to be more complex or analytical. Somehow it feels like I might have control over this type of thought process. unlike the use of pictures or images, these seem different and I experience them different.

Hope you can help me through this, these were quite difficult and my first response to these sent me in a strange tail spin and long process of story telling to myself, which ironically helped me question the idea of self control and thinking, as i got quite mentally tangled up, despite wanting clarity.

thank you,
janet

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Vivien
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Vivien » Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:07 am

Hi Janet,
I get tangled in a process of looking at something with strain, perhaps subtly, re-enforcing a object/ person who is trying to see or view thoughts. I like the "how" in things, but could this re-enforce a someone looking at something? an approach not being asked?..
It can happen, but the you can look for the one who is looking :)

Is there a looker, a person, Janet, who is looking, or looking is just happening?
If I reframe the question to say, Can I find who is thinking, my answer is no, but if I try to answer, are you the thinker of thoughts? then I get messed up, thoughts seem to appear too, or are noticed by 'me'. this might sound crazy but this seems to be is what is happening :0
Yes, thoughts are noticed. We are not denying that.
But the question is if thoughts are noticed by Janet, by an autonomous entity, or noticing is just happening?
Can I find who is controlling the thoughts the answer is no, but when the question is, Is there any control over thoughts then, it feels more difficult, particularly when thoughts appear to be more complex or analytical. Somehow it feels like I might have control over this type of thought process.
Please think through what are you going to do tomorrow. But, watch like a hawk. Watch for any sign of Janet, making thoughts appear.

So do you find any sign of Janet, anything Janet-like, which has a control over what thought comes next?

Can you know in advance what is going to be your next thought before the thought itself is present?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Liam2
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Re: Eyes wide open

Postby Liam2 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:16 am

I shall take my time to watch, thank you
check back soon..


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