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Re: Chris's thread

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:41 pm
by chrisaaa
Hi Vivien

Sorry, I tried to answer the first 2 in one.
What is here underneath thinking?
Underneath thinking there is sensory experience- vision, sounds, bodily sensations- and emotions which seem to set thinking off. There certainly is not a self directing the thoughts; thoughts just arise.
What do you mean by “the person known as Chris is here”?
What does the word ‘person’ refer to in this sentence?
I mean the human that people (including myself) refer to when they say Chris. ‘Chris’ is a label. ‘Person’ is also a label; it doesn’t refer to any singular thing, it’s just a shorthand we use when speaking to each other.
So what are you then, if not the story of Chris?
If I’m anything, I’m all my experiences combined- thoughts, sensations etc. Strictly speaking, there is no me.
Can you ever not be here?
Experience is always happening; I can’t just switch it off (unless I die). I have no say in the existence of my experience; it happens without any consent.

At times I feel like I see all there is to see, but it keeps coming and going. Sometimes I seem to forget and have to sit and really concentrate to see it again. Is this normal or is there just more work to be done? I was thinking it would just click and then I'd always be able to see it without effort.

Thanks
Chris

Re: Chris's thread

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:20 am
by Vivien
Hi Chris,
At times I feel like I see all there is to see, but it keeps coming and going. Sometimes I seem to forget and have to sit and really concentrate to see it again. Is this normal or is there just more work to be done? I was thinking it would just click and then I'd always be able to see it without effort.
This is most people’s expectation, but it’s rarely the case. It’s really rare. For most, there is a flip-flopping, since there are many other beliefs, tendencies, conditionings which hold the illusion at place. They don’t dissolve in an instance just because the self is seen for what it is. These conditionings and patters need to be investigated for them to gradually fall away. This falling away can last at the end of the organism (provided that there is looking). So this is not a quick fix for our problems. And we certainly won’t become immune to sadness, hurt, anger, or any unpleasant emotions. But they are usually more accessible and easier to investigate after the self is seen through. But that is a different kind of inquiry.
Underneath thinking there is sensory experience- vision, sounds, bodily sensations- and emotions which seem to set thinking off. There certainly is not a self directing the thoughts; thoughts just arise.
So although there is no separate self, there is existence, right?
If I’m anything, I’m all my experiences combined- thoughts, sensations etc. Strictly speaking, there is no me.
And who is saying that there is no me?

Can Batman in the movie discover (really discover) that he doesn’t exist other than a fictional character?

And who or what is it that discovered that there is no real Chris in reality?

I mean the human that people (including myself) refer to when they say Chris. ‘Chris’ is a label. ‘Person’ is also a label; it doesn’t refer to any singular thing, it’s just a shorthand we use when speaking to each other.
So you are talking about the body, right?

Is the body the knower of this experience?

Does experience happening TO the body, or AS the body?


Vivien

Re: Chris's thread

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:40 pm
by chrisaaa
Hi Vivien
‘Underneath thinking there is sensory experience- vision, sounds, bodily sensations- and emotions which seem to set thinking off. There certainly is not a self directing the thoughts; thoughts just arise.’
So although there is no separate self, there is existence, right?
Yes I definitely exist. Experience is definitely happening. There’s just no central controller.
‘If I’m anything, I’m all my experiences combined- thoughts, sensations etc. Strictly speaking, there is no me.’
And who is saying that there is no me?
There is no who. It is being said, but not by a self. It is the culmination of my thinking process, and thinking is just happening.
Can Batman in the movie discover (really discover) that he doesn’t exist other than a fictional character?
No and neither can Chris for the same reason- they are not real.
And who or what is it that discovered that there is no real Chris in reality?
It doesn’t make any sense to say that there is a ‘who’ or thing that is aware; awareness just happens. That’s the nature of experience. The character Chris isn’t becoming aware that he isn’t real. I have been trapped in an illusion about my experience- that I am Chris and Chris is in charge- and now the illusion is coming undone.
‘I mean the human that people (including myself) refer to when they say Chris. ‘Chris’ is a label. ‘Person’ is also a label; it doesn’t refer to any singular thing, it’s just a shorthand we use when speaking to each other.’
So you are talking about the body, right?
Yes.
Is the body the knower of this experience?
No, there is no knower, only knowing; just like there is no thinker, only thinking.
Does experience happening TO the body, or AS the body?
I don’t know how to answer this one without thinking about it, so here’s what I think. I can’t say that experience happens to the body because this implies that it happens outside of it and then ‘moves in’ somehow. So I suppose it must happen as the body; as part of it. I’m not certain about this. That’s just the way it seems to me right now.

Re: Chris's thread

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:40 pm
by chrisaaa
I'm working tomorrow but will post if I can.

Thanks Vivien
Chris

Re: Chris's thread

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:43 am
by Vivien
Hi Chris,
V: Does experience happening TO the body, or AS the body?
C: I don’t know how to answer this one without thinking about it, so here’s what I think. I can’t say that experience happens to the body because this implies that it happens outside of it and then ‘moves in’ somehow. So I suppose it must happen as the body; as part of it. I’m not certain about this. That’s just the way it seems to me right now.
Let’s look into this.

Is the body aware?
Is the body the knower of experience?


Scan through the whole body, and stop at each body part and investigate:

Are the feet aware?
Are the feet the knower of this experience?
Or the feet are known AS an experience here now?

Are the knees aware?
And what about the thighs?
Or the knees and thighs are known AS an aspect of experience here-now?

Is your lower back aware?
Is the stomach aware?
Or maybe the sensations in the chest are the knower of experience?
Or all these are known AS aspects of here-and-now experience?

Is the throat aware?
Or maybe the cheeks are aware?

And what about the ears and eyes?
Are them the knower of experience?

Is there any part of the head that is not just KNOWN, but rather the knower, the one that is aware?


Vivien

Re: Chris's thread

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:11 pm
by chrisaaa
Hi Vivien
Is the body aware?
Is the body the knower of experience?
No, there is just awareness of the body.

Are the feet aware?
Are the feet the knower of this experience?
Or the feet are known AS an experience here now?
No, the feet are simply known as experience.
Are the knees aware?
And what about the thighs?
Or the knees and thighs are known AS an aspect of experience here-now?
The knees and thighs are also known as experience.
Is your lower back aware?
No, there is awareness of it.
Is the stomach aware?
No
Or maybe the sensations in the chest are the knower of experience?
No, the sensations are just known.
Or all these are known AS aspects of here-and-now experience?
These sensations are known as experience.
Is the throat aware?
No, there is awareness of it.
Or maybe the cheeks are aware?
No, as with everything there is awareness of them.
And what about the ears and eyes?
Are them the knower of experience?
No, same as everything else.
Is there any part of the head that is not just KNOWN, but rather the knower, the one that is aware?
No, all bodily sensations appear and are known but they are not themselves aware; there is just awareness of them.
Does experience happening TO the body, or AS the body?
I understand the question better now. Experience definitely happens as the body. The body is not aware, there is just awareness of it.

Thanks
Chris

Re: Chris's thread

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:28 am
by Vivien
Hi Chris,

You did a nice investigation.

And so, without identifying as me / Chris, something else is going on, something that is here.
Does it sound true?

Is there a feeling of separation?

Is there something or someone separate from life, from what is here-now, what is happening?

Is there an experiencER separate or divided from this present moment experience?


Vivien

Re: Chris's thread

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:32 pm
by chrisaaa
Hi Vivien
And so, without identifying as me / Chris, something else is going on, something that is here.
Does it sound true?
I can’t say with certainty yet. There’s still a nagging feeling of a me somewhere but I can’t pinpoint where or how.
Is there a feeling of separation?
Sometimes yes and sometimes no. I think it’s just the feeling of looking out from behind my eyes again. I keep observing as a plain sensation like you said but it keeps resurging. And I think there’s more to it than that.
Is there something or someone separate from life, from what is here-now, what is happening?
I can’t say with certainty either way yet. Maybe it’s just conditioning but I don’t think I’m there yet.
Is there an experiencER separate or divided from this present moment experience?
I still can’t say. The other day I was standing by the side of the road and it hit me completely. If you had asked me then, I’m sure it would have been a definite no. But now I’m just not sure.
After seeing it once, I didn’t think it would be this hard to see it again. I’ll keep going. I’m a bit busy this weekend but will post when I can.

Thanks
Chris

Re: Chris's thread

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:07 am
by Vivien
Hi Chris,
Sometimes yes and sometimes no. I think it’s just the feeling of looking out from behind my eyes again. I keep observing as a plain sensation like you said but it keeps resurging. And I think there’s more to it than that.
Yes, there could be more to that. Probably the belief in a doer. So let’s look into that.

Is there anything that does not happen automatically?

Is there anything that needs your doing? Or everything is just happening?

What do you do in order to be?

What do you do in order to see?
What do you do in order to hear?
What do you do in order to feel?
What do you do in order to taste and smell?

What do you do for thoughts to be?

What do you do in order for the body to be?


Please investigate each questions thoroughly many times throughout the day.
Let me know what you find.

Vivien

Re: Chris's thread

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:41 pm
by chrisaaa
Hi Vivien

Sorry I've been really busy today and haven't had a chance to do much. I'll get on it tomorrow.

Thanks
Chris

Re: Chris's thread

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:26 am
by Vivien
All right, thank you for letting me know :)

Re: Chris's thread

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:55 pm
by chrisaaa
Hi Vivien
Is there anything that does not happen automatically?
No, everything is automatic.
Is there anything that needs your doing? Or everything is just happening?
I can’t find anything that needs me to do it.
What do you do in order to be?
Nothing, I’m just here.
What do you do in order to see?
Nothing, seeing just happens.
What do you do in order to hear?
Nothing, sounds just happen.
What do you do in order to feel?
Sensations just appear without prompting.
What do you do in order to taste and smell?
Nothing, they just happen on their own.
What do you do for thoughts to be?
Thoughts just happen spontaneously.
What do you do in order for the body to be?
The body is just here, there’s nothing I can do or change about it.
Please investigate each questions thoroughly many times throughout the day.
Let me know what you find
.
Sorry Vivien, I had a really busy day again. I'll give these pointers a proper good go tomorrow. Off work for the next couple of days.

Thanks
Chris

Re: Chris's thread

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:36 am
by Vivien
Hi Chris,

All right. Then please stay with these same questions for a few days.
Let me know what you discover.

Vivien

Re: Chris's thread

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:15 pm
by chrisaaa
Hi Vivien

I came up with more or less the same answers as yesterday. So I can clearly see now that everything is happening on it's own. There's no 'me' at the center controlling it all.

It's still coming and going but I'm finding it easier all the time to see it. I think it's just so alien to look at experience without a central controller that it's hard to get my head around it.

Most of the time, there's still some sense of me somewhere. Does this ever go away? Or is it a case of looking at it in a different way?

Chris

Re: Chris's thread

Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:14 am
by Vivien
Hi Chris,
It's still coming and going but I'm finding it easier all the time to see it. I think it's just so alien to look at experience without a central controller that it's hard to get my head around it.
It’s not about looking at experience without a central controller, rather to notice that there is NO central controller, and there has never been.

This is not a special state where you shift from the state of there being a central controller to another state where there is no central controller.

Rather it’s the discovery that this central controller just a fiction. It has never been there.
Do you see the difference?
Most of the time, there's still some sense of me somewhere. Does this ever go away? Or is it a case of looking at it in a different way?
Who or what has a problem of the sense of me?
Who or what wants it to go away?
And is there an actual problem with a ‘sense of self’?

And how does this ‘sense of self’ show up? In what form or way?


Vivien