Chris's thread

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Vivien
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:18 am

Hi Chris,
Sorry Vivien, does it normally taking this long? I feel like you're giving up your time and I'm just not getting it.
This is not long, we just hardly started the inquiry. We are only on the second page. A long thread starts above 20 pages.
As long as you are sincere and motivated to look, I’m here with you to help. It doesn’t matter how long it takes. It takes as long as it takes.
I don't really understand this question. Where else would they appear? Would they appear AS consciousness? Articulating it? Like the waves in the ocean metaphor?
You see, you have an intellectual knowledge about awakening, learned from others, like the wave metaphor. Also, you’ve probably heard a lot about consciousness and awareness with the notion that things appearing in them. But the thing is that these are just metaphors, just words.

I’ve encountered many seekers who adopted these metaphors as beliefs – without realizing that these are just learned ideas for others. And more often than not, they identify with these ideas, with the conclusion that “I am awareness” or that “I am consciousness”.

But these all just beliefs. Just thoughts. Not an experience.
Where else would they appear? Would they appear AS consciousness?
You believe that thoughts appear somewhere, that thoughts have a location, and thus you’ve made a logical conclusion that it must be consciousness.

But all of these are just intellectual speculations. These are coming from thinking, and not from looking at experience directly.
I don’t know where the information comes from, it just appears. I’ve no idea how the experience is formed by the brain, all I know is that thoughts are experienced.
The information that things appear in consciousness come from a thought.
A thought is making this claim.
This is not something you directly experience, rather this is what you BELIEVE and THINK.
V: Can you observe the process as thoughts appear IN a consciousness?
C: gain, I’m not sure what you’re asking. All I can say is that they pop up unprompted, seemingly out of nowhere.
Please take my questions VERY LITERALLY.
This investigation is very down to earth.

Please take a cup into your hands.
Go to the tap, and fill it with water.
Now, look at the cup filled with water.
As you look at it, you can clearly SEE without any doubt, that the water is INSIDE a cup.
You can SEE both the water and the cup. Right?

But is this true with thoughts and consciousness?

You believe (think) that thoughts appear IN a consciousness. And I am asking if you can LITERALLY OBSERVE thoughts appearing in a consciousness, just as you can see the water being inside the cup?

I’m asking if you can literally SEE an empty consciousness (just as your empty cup) and then you can literally observe that a thought appearing INSIDE this consciousness (just as water appears in the cup when you fill it form the tap)?

V: What is the experience of consciousness here now?
C: The usual: thinking what to write; TV screen; keyboard; desk; sensations around the body; sounds outside; wind and cars; the heat in the air; tiredness; food bulking my stomach.
The question was: “what is the EXPERIENCE of CONSCIOUSNESS here now?”
And you are saying that the TV screen is consciousness, that sounds are consciousness, that cars are consciousness, that heat is consciousness. But what makes you think this?

Is the TV screen the experience of consciousness, or the TV screen is the experience of a TV screen?
Is the keyboard the experience of consciousness, or the keyboard is the experience a keyboard?
Is the desk the experience of consciousness, or the desk is the experience a desk?

Is the wind the experience of consciousness, or wind is the experience of wind?

What makes you think that the experience of tiredness is the experience of consciousness?

What makes you think that ‘food bulking in your stomach’ is the experience of consciousness and not the experience of food in the stomach?

V: And where is the location of this illusionary central controller?
C: t doesn’t have an exact location, it seems to be somewhere behind my eyes, like other thoughts.
Thoughts are behind your eyes? How do you know that?
Is this what experience shows, or rather it’s just something you’ve learned in school?

Do you believe that there is a location where thoughts appear?

Can you literally find thoughts behind the eyes, just as you can find water in the cup?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:03 am

Hi Vivien
This is not long, we just hardly started the inquiry. We are only on the second page. A long thread starts above 20 pages.
As long as you are sincere and motivated to look, I’m here with you to help. It doesn’t matter how long it takes. It takes as long as it takes.
That makes me feel better, thank you. I was worried that this was dragging. I really do appreciate you giving up so much of your time; I think what you do is brilliant.
You see, you have an intellectual knowledge about awakening, learned from others, like the wave metaphor. Also, you’ve probably heard a lot about consciousness and awareness with the notion that things appearing in them. But the thing is that these are just metaphors, just words.

I’ve encountered many seekers who adopted these metaphors as beliefs – without realizing that these are just learned ideas for others. And more often than not, they identify with these ideas, with the conclusion that “I am awareness” or that “I am consciousness”.

But these all just beliefs. Just thoughts. Not an experience.


Yes I see what you mean. I do Sam Harris’ guided meditation and he talks a lot about how things appear IN consciousness, so it must have rubbed off. By the way, I stopped all books and videos as you said, but I’m still doing this guided meditation as I didn’t think it would interfere, but would it? I’ll stop that too if so.

You believe (think) that thoughts appear IN a consciousness. And I am asking if you can LITERALLY OBSERVE thoughts appearing in a consciousness, just as you can see the water being inside the cup?
You’re right, I absolutely do not see things ‘in consciousness’; I just experience things, or ‘experience happens’. I don’t see consciousness at all.

I’m asking if you can literally SEE an empty consciousness (just as your empty cup) and then you can literally observe that a thought appearing INSIDE this consciousness (just as water appears in the cup when you fill it form the tap)?
Thoughts are a lot like sounds; sounds don’t appear ‘in’ anything as a matter of experience, they just happen. I can't see thoughts in consciousness like water in a cup, no. Thoughts are simply experienced.
The question was: “what is the EXPERIENCE of CONSCIOUSNESS here now?”
And you are saying that the TV screen is consciousness, that sounds are consciousness, that cars are consciousness, that heat is consciousness. But what makes you think this?

Is the TV screen the experience of consciousness, or the TV screen is the experience of a TV screen?
Is the keyboard the experience of consciousness, or the keyboard is the experience a keyboard?
Is the desk the experience of consciousness, or the desk is the experience a desk?

Is the wind the experience of consciousness, or wind is the experience of wind?

What makes you think that the experience of tiredness is the experience of consciousness?

What makes you think that ‘food bulking in your stomach’ is the experience of consciousness and not the experience of food in the stomach?
No, none of these things are consciousness; these are just things that I experience. And I can’t see, hear, taste, touch or smell consciousness. I see objects and colours, I hear sounds etc. but not consciousness.
Thoughts are behind your eyes? How do you know that?
Is this what experience shows, or rather it’s just something you’ve learned in school?
Do you believe that there is a location where thoughts appear?
Can you literally find thoughts behind the eyes, just as you can find water in the cup?
I know that the brain is behind the eyes and that thoughts are in the brain so I have this intuitive orientation that thoughts happen behind the eyes. I carry this intuition everywhere. But on reflection, visual experience doesn’t happen anywhere, it just happens. And I can’t say that thoughts happen anywhere either. There’s nowhere I can point to, all I can honestly say is that thoughts are experienced. I cannot see my eyes; I can see what is in my visual experience. I would normally say that thoughts are ‘behind’ my visual experience, but neither of these things happen anywhere as I experience them. This is very disorienting; I’ll keep on it.

Thanks Vivien
Chris

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:35 am

Hi Chris,
That makes me feel better, thank you. I was worried that this was dragging. I really do appreciate you giving up so much of your time; I think what you do is brilliant.
You are welcome :) So you can put aside this worry :)
Yes I see what you mean. I do Sam Harris’ guided meditation and he talks a lot about how things appear IN consciousness, so it must have rubbed off. By the way, I stopped all books and videos as you said, but I’m still doing this guided meditation as I didn’t think it would interfere, but would it? I’ll stop that too if so.
If it’s a guided meditation, then it would probably be better if you could stop it for the time of our investigation. If you still want to meditate then I suggest watching your thoughts. That practice could be very beneficial.
Thoughts are a lot like sounds; sounds don’t appear ‘in’ anything as a matter of experience, they just happen. I can't see thoughts in consciousness like water in a cup, no. Thoughts are simply experienced.
Yes, thoughts just simply experienced or known.
I know that the brain is behind the eyes and that thoughts are in the brain so I have this intuitive orientation that thoughts happen behind the eyes. I carry this intuition everywhere.
What you call intuition is not really an intuition, rather a learned belief which comes up almost as a reflex.
But on reflection, visual experience doesn’t happen anywhere, it just happens. And I can’t say that thoughts happen anywhere either. There’s nowhere I can point to, all I can honestly say is that thoughts are experienced.
Exactly! Now you can see the difference between our beliefs and how things actually are.
We have learned all sorts of beliefs from others, without ever investigating their validity.
And what we do here is to check if our beliefs can stand up to scrutiny of experience as it actually is.
I can see what is in my visual experience. I would normally say that thoughts are ‘behind’ my visual experience, but neither of these things happen anywhere as I experience them. This is very disorienting; I’ll keep on it.
It’s disorienting only because it’s in a stark contrast of what you’ve believed in almost all your life.

Here is a little experiment for you.

Have something to eat, like a piece of fruit. Take a bite. Notice the taste that appears.

Are you making taste appear or is it showing up on its own?

Is taste controllable? Can you adjust taste to your liking?
Can you have a different taste than what is appearing in this very moment?

Describe the taste in as many words as you can. How description and experience differ?

Can you see that both experience of taste and description arise as a simultaneous happening?

What do you notice from this investigation?

Please investigate this a few times during the day. Also experiment with smelling.

Let me know what you find.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:43 pm

Hi Vivien
Have something to eat, like a piece of fruit. Take a bite. Notice the taste that appears.

Are you making taste appear or is it showing up on its own?
It shows up completely on its own; there’s nothing I can do.
Is taste controllable? Can you adjust taste to your liking?
Can you have a different taste than what is appearing in this very moment?
No, it’s out of my control. I tried to make it taste like an orange; no luck I’m afraid.
Describe the taste in as many words as you can. How description and experience differ?
I did with coffee: there is a slight bitterness; a watery-ness (I use oat milk); a hot temperature that stings the end of my tongue a little; a smooth texture; a bland after-taste. There’s not much more I can say; it’s quite tasteless.

Strawberries are much tastier but I still struggled to find words: very sour and tangy; the body is soft, gooey and mushy which contrasts with the crunchiness of the tiny seeds. They are tender and decompose almost instantly in my mouth.

Description is just labelling, so that I can communicate the experience to you. Actual Experience is wordless, so it’s hard to describe; I’d say it’s more visceral and alive than description. Labels are useful to inform you of what the experience might be like- I actually cannot communicate my experience to you without them- but they’re no substitute for the real thing.
Can you see that both experience of taste and description arise as a simultaneous happening?
I think so; the labels are like weeds popping up- the experience can’t be left alone. But like you’ve said before, I can shift focus so that the labelling becomes part of the background.
What do you notice from this investigation?
That thinking is just a labelling system to describe experience; its purpose is for communication. But there’s a world of difference between the description and the experience itself; they’re two completely different things. Thinking is automatically triggered by experience; as soon as experience is noticed, labels come flooding in to describe it and often veil the experience itself. I actually find it very strange to just experience food or drink in my mouth because it’s something I never do; but I'll continue to do it.

Thanks again, Vivien
Chris

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:52 am

Hi Chris,

You did an excellent investigation :)

Please have another piece of food. And just notice what is here now.

Do you need to give labels to tastes and sensations in order to feel/taste them?

Is there a person experiencing taste?

Is there a need for a story about the person while experiencing taste?

Does the story of Chris have anything to do with the experience of taste?

Is there a taster?


Please repeat this several times before replying.
Also experiment with smells.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:46 pm

Hi Vivien

I did the exercise four times, making notes, but I came up with more or less the same answers each time, so I decided to just post two of them.

chilli
Do you need to give labels to tastes and sensations in order to feel/taste them?
No, the taste is actually much richer when I’m focussed on it.
Is there a person experiencing taste?
No, the tasting is just happening. Postulating a person that tastes just creates added confusion.
Is there a need for a story about the person while experiencing taste?
No, there would only be a need for a story if I had to communicate the experience to you- ‘I am eating chilli’.
Does the story of Chris have anything to do with the experience of taste?
No, completely separate things.
Is there a taster?
No, taste is just happening on its own; there’s no person that taste is being ‘presented to’.


oreos
Do you need to give labels to tastes and sensations in order to feel/taste them?
No, words keep popping up but they are not needed for the experience to happen. In fact, labels rely on experience, but not the other way around.
Is there a person experiencing taste?
No, the taste appears on its own.
Is there a need for a story about the person while experiencing taste?
Not at all; story-telling is a separate activity.
Does the story of Chris have anything to do with the experience of taste?
No, the story of Chris gets in the way of full experience if anything.
Is there a taster?
No, a taster would be another unnecessary step in the experience. The taste happens as a matter of experience.

So the main takeaway is that experiencing and labeling/describing/storytelling are two distinct things. So is this where the illusion is created? In conflating experience with thinking?

Chris

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:47 am

Hi Chris,

You did another nice investigation :)
So the main takeaway is that experiencing and labeling/describing/storytelling are two distinct things. So is this where the illusion is created? In conflating experience with thinking?
It’s a good question. And yes. But it’s very important that you see this for yourself.

Some time ago you used this phrase:
like a cloud in my mind.
Do you believe that there is such thing as a mind where thoughts appear IN or being created?

Can you observe a ‘mind’ here and now?
What is it in the very moment as you observe it?
What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?

How ‘mind’ as such is experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:09 pm

Hi Vivien
Do you believe that there is such thing as a mind where thoughts appear IN or being created?
I believe there is a mind in which thoughts appear; but I don’t experience the fact directly. What I experience are its contents- sights, sounds, thoughts etc.
Can you observe a ‘mind’ here and now?
No, I can only observe thoughts and sights etc.
What is it in the very moment as you observe it?
It’s not anything; no mind is experienced. The mind is an encompassing label that lumps all experiences together.
What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?
The mind has no shape to speak of. Sight provides plenty of colours, but the mind has no colour. I could talk abstractly about the texture of sensations, sounds, sights and everything but the mind has no texture. I definitely can’t talk about size; I can’t say whether it’s big or small because I’ve nothing to compare it to.
How ‘mind’ as such is experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?
Thoughts, sensations, sounds and the imagination are all certainly experienced directly; but I don’t experience these things as being ‘in my mind’, I just experience them. I can’t ‘see’ the mind from the outside; I can only experience it from the inside. It’s like a positive seeing, rather than a negative. I don’t know if I’m being clear; it’s hard to put into words.

By the way, I'm finding easier now to see that I am not the owner of my thoughts. It's not fully clicked yet but I'm definitely noticing a difference.

Chris

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:03 am

Hi Chris,

You did a nice investigation.
I believe there is a mind in which thoughts appear; but I don’t experience the fact directly.
Have you ever seen a thought appearing in a mind?

Do you still believe that thoughts appear in a mind?
If yes, what experiential proofs do you have?
By the way, I'm finding easier now to see that I am not the owner of my thoughts. It's not fully clicked yet but I'm definitely noticing a difference.
Great :)

Let’s go back to some earlier pointers.
Look as often as possible in the midst of your everyday life.

What do you do in order to think?
How do you make (or birth) a thought into existence?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:51 pm

Hi Vivien
Have you ever seen a thought appearing in a mind?
No never, I just believed- or lazily assumed- that that’s how I experienced thoughts.
Do you still believe that thoughts appear in a mind?
I don’t experience thoughts IN a mind if that’s what you mean. I don’t experience thoughts anywhere, I simply experience them. Still, I believe that thoughts appear in the mind as I believe all experience does; but this is a belief, not an observed experience.
If yes, what experiential proofs do you have?
I have none; I recognise this as a belief and not something experienced.
Strangely (though probably not relevant) I came to this realisation once after taking some magic mushrooms. I saw it clearly and recognised its significance. I remember thinking that Sam Harris was wrong when he talks about things ‘appearing in consciousness’, because the appearances ARE consciousness. But after a while, I forgot it again and returned to my original belief, assuming it wasn’t that important. Glad to discover I was on to something.
What do you do in order to think?
‘I’ do absolutely nothing; thoughts just spring up.
How do you make (or birth) a thought into existence?
Nothing, they birth themselves. I know these are short answers but I feel much more certain of this than I did before. Last week it was more of an intellectual understanding; now I see it more plainly and viscerally.

Thanks Vivien
Chris

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:49 am

Hi Chris,
I know these are short answers but I feel much more certain of this than I did before. Last week it was more of an intellectual understanding; now I see it more plainly and viscerally.
I’m glad to hear this :)
I don’t experience thoughts IN a mind if that’s what you mean. I don’t experience thoughts anywhere, I simply experience them. Still, I believe that thoughts appear in the mind as I believe all experience does; but this is a belief, not an observed experience.
If you can really see in experience that there is no actual mind as an origin and placeholder of thoughts, then how come that you still believe that thoughts appear in a mind?

When you were a child and realized that Santa was just a made-up character, did you continue to believe that there was a real Santa somewhere? Or with the realization the belief had fallen away


Try an experiment.
Try to create a thought. Any thought, from scratch. What do you find?

Do you notice how thoughts seem to appear, hang around for a while and somehow pass, and then the next thought come?

What is making thoughts to appear?

Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:29 pm

Hi Vivien
If you can really see in experience that there is no actual mind as an origin and placeholder of thoughts, then how come that you still believe that thoughts appear in a mind?
Yes, I think that I got myself tangled in a knot there. There’s no way of sensibly talking of thoughts appearing in the mind. They appear just as everything else does: they just appear.
Try an experiment.
Try to create a thought. Any thought, from scratch. What do you find?
That I’m not really creating the thought. The elements of the thought (e.g. a specific person or words) seem to ‘come out of the darkness’, if you like. If I think of a teddy bear hopping over a rainbow, I can’t say how ‘I’ chose any of the parts that make up that image, let alone the whole thing.
Do you notice how thoughts seem to appear, hang around for a while and somehow pass, and then the next thought come?
Yes, thoughts are fleeting. I’ve said before that they are like clouds. That’s a metaphor I picked up from a book, I’m sure, but that’s how they seem to me.
What is making thoughts to appear?
They appear spontaneously, like sounds. ‘I’ don’t create them. They are often responses to situations in front of me; or they are often ruminations or bitter recollections. But as to ‘what’ is creating them as they appear, I can’t say; they just appear.
Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?
No, because I can’t see a thought coming, so there’s no way I can stop it. I’d have as much luck stopping sounds before they arose, without warning of their arrival.

Thanks!
Chris

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:34 am

Hi Chris,

You did a nice investigation.

Look, is the me-character the creator or the created?
Is there a narrator of the story of me?
Is the character in the story creating what happens in the story or the story about the character creates itself, one thought at a time?
Is the me character thinking?
Or are thoughts coming up by themselves?
Can a thought think?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:35 pm

Hi Vivien

Some bad news- I’ve been very ill all yesterday and most of today (seems to be clearing up now). Not sure what it was but it made me very distracted and I’ve found it very hard to focus. As a result, I seem to have lost my place with everything. I seem to have forgotten what I knew just 2 days ago. I’m really annoyed because I felt like I was making some good progress and now I feel like I’m nearly back at square one. Thoughts seem very much my own again. I’ve been doing the exercises with the food but still don’t seem to be getting there. I’m also annoyed because I feel like I could have answered your pointers much better if this hadn’t happened. So my answers are a bit short but I gave it a go anyway.
Look, is the me-character the creator or the created?
The me character is created. It can’t create because it is a thought like all the rest; so it simply appears in the same way.
Is there a narrator of the story of me?
The story of me definitely sounds like a narrator. But the story and the narrator are one and the same.
Is the character in the story creating what happens in the story or the story about the character creates itself, one thought at a time?
The story, and the character in it, is being created. The story is just thoughts arising without a creator.
Is the me character thinking?
Or are thoughts coming up by themselves?
Can a thought think?
No it’s just a thought, thoughts can’t think. ‘Me’ is a thought rising like the rest.

Thanks Vivien
Chris

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:48 am

Hi Chris,
Some bad news- I’ve been very ill all yesterday and most of today (seems to be clearing up now). Not sure what it was but it made me very distracted and I’ve found it very hard to focus. As a result, I seem to have lost my place with everything. I seem to have forgotten what I knew just 2 days ago. I’m really annoyed because I felt like I was making some good progress and now I feel like I’m nearly back at square one. Thoughts seem very much my own again. I’ve been doing the exercises with the food but still don’t seem to be getting there. I’m also annoyed because I feel like I could have answered your pointers much better if this hadn’t happened.
Dear Chris, is totally normal to temporarily lose the ability of looking when being ill. It happened to me also, and to many other people. So please don’t be too concerned about it. With persistent intention to look, it will come back. :)

I would suggest to redo the taste exercises and also experiment with smelling.
Let me know how they go.


Also look at these questions as often as you can during the day:

What do you do in order to think?
How do you make (or birth) a thought into existence?


These are one of the most important pointers to use, so repeatedly investigate them as often as possible.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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