Chris's thread

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Vivien
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:27 am

Hi Chris,
I keep reminding myself of these facts but the fear is still there. Does this mean I haven’t found the real source of fear or does it just take time?
Now just stay with the fear. Not with the story, but with the sensations in the body that is being labelled as ‘fear’.

What happens to this sensation/feeling if you don’t entertain the story of losing control?

If you don’t label this sensation as a fear, then what can you discover about it as a raw sensation only?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:13 pm

Hi Vivien

As I was working on these pointers yesterday I had a strong glimpse. It lasted a good half hour or so. So this could be it.
Now just stay with the fear. Not with the story, but with the sensations in the body that is being labelled as ‘fear’.
What happens to this sensation/feeling if you don’t entertain the story of losing control?
If you don’t label this sensation as a fear, then what can you discover about it as a raw sensation only?
It’s an intense sensation. I’ve noticed it plenty of times before but I mistook it for excitement or anticipation. It’s a tingling feeling. Sometimes all around the body, sometimes just in the upper back. It’s like the feeling you get just before you jump off the top diving board at the swimming pool.

It rises up every time I start looking at experience and thinking about how it’s all happening by itself. It’s definitely the feeling of resistance. That’s the only thing I’m sure about. Despite its intensity, I have no idea why the resistance is there. When I said it was the fear of losing control I was really just (unknowingly!) reiterating what I’ve read in books. I’ve been looking for days now and I really don’t know.

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:04 am

Hi Chris,
It’s an intense sensation. I’ve noticed it plenty of times before but I mistook it for excitement or anticipation. It’s a tingling feeling.
And how do you know that fear is the right label, and not excitement or anticipation? If you don’t listen to thoughts, can you know anything about the sensation?

Sensations are the same… only the label makes any difference.
If you have an excitement of meeting somebody, that can be labelled as ‘fear’, or as excitement, or even love.
It’s all about the label.

Does the sensation itself know anything about fear, resistance, excitement?
Or all these information coming only from thoughts, and from the raw experience of the sensation?

Sometimes all around the body, sometimes just in the upper back. It’s like the feeling you get just before you jump off the top diving board at the swimming pool.
And you can feel the same sensations when you have a date with someone. Just notice that only a label makes any difference.
It rises up every time I start looking at experience and thinking about how it’s all happening by itself. It’s definitely the feeling of resistance. That’s the only thing I’m sure about. Despite its intensity, I have no idea why the resistance is there. When I said it was the fear of losing control I was really just (unknowingly!) reiterating what I’ve read in books. I’ve been looking for days now and I really don’t know.
That’s why you need to be super honest both with yourself and with me.

That is just a raw sensation, nothing important, but thoughts create all sorts of stories around them. Just drop the story, drop the label and see that this is just an innocent sensation :)

No let’s go back to the notion of control.

So what is it exactly that you are in control of right now?

Spend a whole day looking at this, and list everything you find. Please make a thorough list. Let it be long.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:01 pm

Hi Vivien
And how do you know that fear is the right label, and not excitement or anticipation? If you don’t listen to thoughts, can you know anything about the sensation?
No, it’s just a fuzzy feeling that goes all around my body and I have no idea what it is. It’s really intense and appears consistently so you’d think I’d be able to tell what it is but I have no idea.

If it’s not fear then what is it? Didn’t you say that the fear must be holding me back? Why else could it be taking this long? Could excitement or anticipation be holding me back?
Does the sensation itself know anything about fear, resistance, excitement?
No.
Or all these information coming only from thoughts, and from the raw experience of the sensation?
Yes all of the information comes from thoughts, labels, stories etc. The sensation is just a fuzz around my body that arises whenever I look at experience. I have no idea why it happens.
So what is it exactly that you are in control of right now?
I keep testing things and looking but I find nothing. If I wiggle my fingers, I find no controller making it happen. I find no one in charge of thoughts or their creation. Same goes for sensory experience. So I have nothing to make a list with.

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:21 am

Hi Chris,
If it’s not fear then what is it? Didn’t you say that the fear must be holding me back?
If there is something that you interpret as a fear, then it can hold you back. But fear also comes as a thought (it usually start as a thought) with a story about negative consequences of seeing that there is no doer, decider, chooser etc.
Why else could it be taking this long? Could excitement or anticipation be holding me back?
We both know that you have a tendency believing that you are actually looking at experience, while you are not. You have a tendency to rely on thoughts without noticing that this is what happening.
I keep testing things and looking but I find nothing. If I wiggle my fingers, I find no controller making it happen. I find no one in charge of thoughts or their creation. Same goes for sensory experience. So I have nothing to make a list with.
Are you totally sure about this? That there is no doer, decider, etc?
Or rather you are just understanding this intellectually, but in your everyday life it still FEELS or SEEMS like that ‘I am thinking, I am doing, deciding, choosing, etc.?


It’s very important that you are super honest with yourself and with me. Make sure that you don’t fall into the trap of talking yourself into there being no doer, chooser, etc., while you still FEEL that there is one.

Your truth is ALWAYS what you FEEL to be true, and not what you think to be true.
Whatever you feel to be true, that is your truth in that moment, and no amount of thinking otherwise could change that.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:02 pm

Hi Vivien
Are you totally sure about this? That there is no doer, decider, etc?
Or rather you are just understanding this intellectually, but in your everyday life it still FEELS or SEEMS like that ‘I am thinking, I am doing, deciding, choosing, etc.?
I still feel to be the doer, thinker etc. but when I look for the doer I find nothing. I find each thing happening by itself. Should I just keep looking?

Chris

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:08 pm

Hi Vivien

Ok here is a list of things that seem to be in my control until I look deeply.

Thinking, walking, typing, checking the time, eating, talking, concentrating, cooking, moving my body in any way, emotions, using my phone, stretching.

As soon as I look for a doer, there isn’t one.

I swear I’m looking properly. I ignore my thoughts and concentrate on sensory experience. The thing is I get tired from concentrating and the more I do it the harder it gets to not get lost in thought because I’m so tired.

Vivien, I really appreciate how patient you are for sticking with me for this long, but it’s been 4 months and I’m getting really fed up. I really want desperately to see it but I also want to get on with my life. I spend most of my spare time sat in a chair staring at a wall. I starting to think I’m just not capable of seeing it.

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:03 am

Hi Chris,

I’d been thinking about this before, maybe it would be better to stop the investigation for a while, for a few months or a year and just see what happens.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:45 am

Ok Vivien, any advice about what I should do in the meantime?

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Vivien
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:26 am

Hi Chris,

Probably it would better to not concern yourself about this topic, just live your life. If there is a real, deep desire to see this, it will emerge again on its own.

All the best,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:26 pm

Ok Vivien, if you think that is best. Thank you for all of your help and sorry if I’ve been difficult. I’m disappointed that I haven’t seen it yet but I have a much better idea of how to go about it now.

All the best,
Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:56 pm

Yes, Chris, just take some break. Just enjoy life for a while. :)

All the best,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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