Chris's thread

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:07 am

I think I’ve been a bit demoralised this week because I was so sure that I had seen it. And after trying so hard for so long, to find out I hadn’t was a bit devastating. I honestly want to see it more than anything, and I hope you don’t feel like I’m wasting your time. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it.

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:16 am

Hi Chris,

Honestly, I don’t know. The thing is that it’s not clear for me from your replies what you are actually seeing and what is just an intellectual understanding or a logical conclusion from a previous glimpse.

I offered you a session twice, but you didn’t want to have one. That’s all right. But then I don’t know what else to offer. Perhaps, you can go back to the beginning of this thread, and read only my posts and spend lots of looking with every single question I gave you.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:54 am

Ok I can do that. I would also be up for a live session, I just didn’t think I needed one before.

Chris

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:02 pm

Hi Vivien

Sorry for not being as focused as I should be. I promise I'll stop being so petulant and just get myself back on the horse whenever I fall off. I've had a few problems in my personal life these last couple of weeks as well which has distracted me but I am committed to this. I went back to these pointers today as they helped me so much before.
But what is here underneath thinking?
There’s nothing but sensory experience and emotions.
Is there Chris without a story about Chris?
No, Chris is a purely fictional character in a story that is being spontaneously created. Without the thoughts that weave the story and its character together, there is no Chris, just the emotions and sensory experience happening now.
What drives the story about Chris?
Emotions make the narrative spring into action; reactions to what’s going on in my life. If I’m angry, thoughts of arguments come up to vent the anger on someone. Like when I taste something, words spring up unprompted to describe the taste. But the story is created out of nowhere, by no one. It’s like a personality that is being created, with the intention of projecting it onto the world. It’s practice for real life behaviour.

I’m fed up with this story. It just runs on and on all day. It does me no good and it’s about a character that doesn’t even exist. But it’s the character itself that is angry, it’s angry about the narrative that it is a part of, about the thoughts that create it. Angry feelings create an angry character. Relaxed feelings create a relaxed character.
Is Chris here right now?
Not in reality. The character exists in the same way a character in a film exists, so it’s not real. The character Chris cannot realise he’s fictional for the very reason that he is fictional. He can't do anything. He just has to be realized for what he is.

Thanks
Chris

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:03 pm

By the way, I'm still up for a live session if you think it will be useful.

Thanks

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Vivien
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:27 am

Hi Chris,
I’m fed up with this story. It just runs on and on all day. It does me no good and it’s about a character that doesn’t even exist.
Just look at very carefully and honesty what you wrote here.
You say that you are fed up with the story, since it doesn’t do any good for you.

Can you see that you are assuming that there is another me outside of the story?

Please don’t just conclude that there is no other me, rather really look here.
You are obviously believing that there is a me outside of the story being fed up with the other me inside the story.

Where is this outside me who is fed up with the story, in this very moment?
What is it exactly?


I’ve sent you both an email and private message about the session.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:53 am

Thanks Vivien

I’m working the next 2 days so will get back to you when I can.

Chris

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:59 pm

Hi Vivien

I've been really busy the past few days (and will be today and tomorrow annoyingly), so I've squeezed in these exercises when I could. I'm not sure if I got what you were leading me to, but here's what I came up with.
Can you see that you are assuming that there is another me outside of the story?
Yes, but I can’t see where this other me would be.
Where is this outside me who is fed up with the story, in this very moment?
I honestly can’t say. There’s just the emotions that the story is built upon them.
What is it exactly?
There are emotions that precede the thoughts. These are felt in the body. When I’m angry, there’s a tightness around my head and upper back. When I’m anxious, there’s a slight tingle around my body, mostly in my legs and the back of my neck. When I’m happy, there’s a lightness to my body, I feel looser. After these sensations, thoughts come rushing in to justify the feelings and create a story about them. And they often compound the emotions. So when I’m angry, the thoughts go round and round, making me angrier still.

But I can’t locate any separate self that is the origin of these feelings. They all just work in concert to create the overriding emotion.

Thanks
Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:17 am

Hi Chris,
When I’m angry, there’s a tightness around my head and upper back. When I’m anxious, there’s a slight tingle around my body, mostly in my legs and the back of my neck. When I’m happy, there’s a lightness to my body, I feel looser.
“When I am angry” – when there is an anger, what is it that is separate from the anger, being angry?

“When I am anxious” – what or who is it that is separate from the perception of anxiousness, experiencing it?

“there is a slight tingle around MY body” – what is it that separate from the sensations labelled ‘body’, and thus owning or having a body?

“When I am happy” – what is it that experiences happiness as something other than itself?

Is there an I + happiness?
And the I experiences happiness?
Or there is only the current experience, showing up as happiness?

But I can’t locate any separate self that is the origin of these feelings.
You can’t find it, and yet you still believe and more importantly FEEL is if there were a you whom all these emotions are happening TO.

So the work is not done.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:20 pm

Hi Vivien

May I have another day to work on these? I feel like they're really useful. I got a small glimpse earlier but am struggling now.

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:50 pm

All right, please do so :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:05 pm

Hi Vivien

Still struggling with these ones but here's what I came up with.
“When I am angry” – when there is an anger, what is it that is separate from the anger, being angry?
Nothing, there’s just the bodily sensations and the thoughts.
“When I am anxious” – what or who is it that is separate from the perception of anxiousness, experiencing it?
Again, nothing. Just thoughts and sensations.
“there is a slight tingle around MY body” – what is it that separate from the sensations labelled ‘body’, and thus owning or having a body?
There’s nothing there to own the sensations, the sensations just exist in and of themselves.
“When I am happy” – what is it that experiences happiness as something other than itself?
As with everything else, the happiness is just there. There’s nothing separate from it that is also experiencing it.
Is there an I + happiness?
No.
And the I experiences happiness?
No, that would be an added and unnecessary step.
Or there is only the current experience, showing up as happiness?
Yes, there is just experiences happening in and of themselves, no ‘I’ that collates them all and experiences them again.

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:41 am

Hi Chris,

Here is the exercise I mentioned.

Do you drink coffee or tea? Next time when you drink it, please investigate what is the difference between thinking about coffee and experiencing the coffee.

Is it possible to look at the coffee without thinking “this is a coffee, and I’m going to drink it”? Is it possible to EXPERIENCE it only by looking at it and SEEING it without thinking about it?

And when you take a sip, is it possible to just FEEL the warmth of it, without analysing and thinking why it’s warm, and how long will it stay warm?

And is it possible just to experience the TASTE of it, without analysing it, or thinking how bitter it is, or whether it needs some sweetener or not?

Is it possible to EXPERIENCE the SMELL of the coffee, without thinking “this smell reminds me of his or that”?


I would like to ask you to really try this out in reality, and not just think it through. In other words, not just think about it.
But of course, thoughts about it might happen! But that’s all right. You just ignore the thoughts, and you turn your attention to experiencing.

Do you see, I’m asking you the same thing: not just to think it through what I wrote above, but actually do it in experience. Do you see the difference?
This difference will be the basis of our investigation.

You cannot experience (see, feel, taste, smell) the coffee by thinking. You literally have to experience it.

Do you see clearly the difference between thinking and experiencing?


Please experiment throughout the day with all sorts of things. Like having dinner, washing your hands, going up a staircase, ect.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:46 am

Thanks Vivien :)

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:00 pm

Hi Vivien

I tried this exercise with lots of different things like you said. Unfortunately, I found it very hard to concentrate today, but will try again tomorrow. I still found it helpful anyway. Here's the one I did for coffee.
Is it possible to look at the coffee without thinking “this is a coffee, and I’m going to drink it”? Is it possible to EXPERIENCE it only by looking at it and SEEING it without thinking about it?
Yes, it’s very easy to see it without conceptualising about it. The image of it is just there.
And when you take a sip, is it possible to just FEEL the warmth of it, without analysing and thinking why it’s warm, and how long will it stay warm?
Yes, I can just experience the taste and warmth as themselves.
And is it possible just to experience the TASTE of it, without analysing it, or thinking how bitter it is, or whether it needs some sweetener or not?
Yes, the taste appears by itself without any help from thoughts or descriptions.
Is it possible to EXPERIENCE the SMELL of the coffee, without thinking “this smell reminds me of his or that”?
It’s harder to ignore thoughts with smell, but if I concentrate hard I can just experience the smell on its own.
Do you see clearly the difference between thinking and experiencing?
Yes, experience is real, thoughts are experienced, but don’t describe anything real. They describe experience superficially. Thoughts also get in the way of experiencing things fully.

Chris


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