Chris's thread

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:03 pm

Hi Vivien
Has there been a shift in perspective from intellectual understanding of there being no separate self to an experiential recognition of it?
Yes, in fact it seems quite obvious now when I look. Thinking about it just gets in the way of seeing.
If yes, can you point to the moment when the shift happened?
Not really. It was gradual and very on and off. I first saw it about a month ago (maybe more), when I was standing at the side of the road waiting to be picked up. It hit me all at once and I knew I had it. Since then, I’ve gone in and out of confusion. But now it’s settled and can see it comfortably whenever I look.
How did the shift itself felt?
It was very strange. My thoughts seemed to be floating, like bubbles appearing out of nowhere. There was no core to my experience, experience was just flowing.
Is searching/seeking still going on?
I think I need to find a way to work it into my meditation practice. I can’t hold onto it for long without being dragged into thoughts.
Is there a desire to do more exercises?
Do you mean from you or by myself?
What is the difference in how you FEEL?
Honestly, I don’t feel much different than before.
How does it FEEL now that you have had the realisation? How does it FEEL to see through the separate self?
The only thing I can say is that when thoughts and feelings come up, there’s no identification with them. There’s no belief that those thoughts are me.

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:29 am

Hi Chris,
I think I need to find a way to work it into my meditation practice. I can’t hold onto it for long without being dragged into thoughts.
So seeing happens only when you look, otherwise everything is the same as it used to be?
V: What is the difference in how you FEEL?
C: Honestly, I don’t feel much different than before.
V: How does it FEEL now that you have had the realisation? How does it FEEL to see through the separate self?
C; The only thing I can say is that when thoughts and feelings come up, there’s no identification with them. There’s no belief that those thoughts are me.
I find these two statements contradictory. Since if there is no identification with thoughts and feelings then there must be a change, a difference in how you feel. Since who we feel is being determined by these identifications. But if there is no identification that that’s should be something quite different than before.

So maybe there is more things to look at…

What happens where there is a thought story coming up with its usual corresponding emotions?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:11 pm

Hi Vivien
So seeing happens only when you look, otherwise everything is the same as it used to be?
I see it more and more without intentionally looking as time goes on. At first it took a fair amount of effort, but now seeing happens automatically a lot of the time. Still, there are times in the day when I forget it and experience seems as it was before.
What happens where there is a thought story coming up with its usual corresponding emotions?
It changes; sometimes it’s quite obvious that the thoughts and emotions are appearing without anyone in charge; and then there are instances when it’s forgotten and it seems as though thoughts are intentional again.

I'm working the next 2 days so may not get a chance to post anything, but I'll try.

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:52 am

Hi Chris,
and then there are instances when it’s forgotten and it seems as though thoughts are intentional again.
Every time it seems that thoughts are thought intentionally, pause for a moment, and investigate.

What has been done for this thought to appear?

Stay with this for a few days and tell me what you discover.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:03 pm

Hi Vivien
Every time it seems that thoughts are thought intentionally, pause for a moment, and investigate.

What has been done for this thought to appear?
Again, in these moments, it becomes clear that the thoughts create themselves. There’s no ‘me’ generating them. Still, when ‘I’ am lost in thought I forget and carry on under the assumption there is a me and that I am the story that is being created. Is this normal? Could it just be that I’m conditioned to think this way and it will fade with time?

Quick question. I've started reading books again. Nothing related to this but do you think it would be a distraction?

Thanks
Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:19 am

Hi Chris,
Quick question. I've started reading books again. Nothing related to this but do you think it would be a distraction?
Only you can know the answer for this.
Is there a need for distraction?
Again, in these moments, it becomes clear that the thoughts create themselves. There’s no ‘me’ generating them. Still, when ‘I’ am lost in thought I forget and carry on under the assumption there is a me and that I am the story that is being created. Is this normal? Could it just be that I’m conditioned to think this way and it will fade with time?
Instead of replying, let me go back to your previous comments and my responses to them:
V: What is the difference in how you FEEL?
C: Honestly, I don’t feel much different than before.
V: How does it FEEL now that you have had the realisation? How does it FEEL to see through the separate self?
C; The only thing I can say is that when thoughts and feelings come up, there’s no identification with them. There’s no belief that those thoughts are me.
I find these two statements contradictory. Since if there is no identification with thoughts and feelings then there must be a change, a difference in how you feel. Since who we feel is being determined by these identifications. But if there is no identification as you say that that’s should be something quite different than before.

Do you see what I’m pointing to here?
If you say that there is no identification with the separate self, how come that there is no change in how you feel?
Is that possible not to identify and yet feel totally the same?

Isn’t all feelings and emotions are based on identification?

Are you 100% sure that it’s clearly seen that there is no separate self?
Would you put your life on it (on your answer)?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:29 am

Hi Vivien
Only you can know the answer for this.
Is there a need for distraction?
There’s definitely no need for one. I was just wondering if it was recommended to not read. I don’t think it’s a distraction. But I’ll stop anyway. 100% focus.
Are you 100% sure that it’s clearly seen that there is no separate self?
To be honest, no I’m not. It’s slipped again but I’ve been in denial about it the last few days. I am certain I had it last week. I tried so hard to get it last time, and when I did it felt as though I had it for good so I got complacent. This is very annoying. I won’t let it happen again.

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:44 am

Hi Chris,

Seeing that there is no separate self is not something that can be lost. It might not be seen 24/7 at the beginning, but most of the times it is.

If it can be lost, then it was just a temporary glimpse. It’s not something that can be lost for days or weeks. That it’s not seen. There might have been glimpses, but a glimpse is not equal to fully seeing it.

Once it’s seen, it cannot be unseen. It might not be clear all the time, but most of the time. Easily accessible every time when looking.
I tried so hard to get it last time, and when I did it felt as though I had it for good so I got complacent.
You see, there is an ownership over it, when you say that “It felt as though I had it for good”. This shows that there was still a belief in somebody who had it.

The problem is that the fictional self wants to have it for itself. The me-character wants to see it. But it’s impossible. The me-character wants to claim that “I have it, I see it, it’s mine, I’m special”.

But awakening is far from being special.
Actually, it’s the end of all specialness.
It’s very humbling, and down to earth.
When it’s truly seen, there is nothing left to be special, or be somebody at all.

So tell me, what do you believe yourself to be in this very moment?
This is very annoying. I won’t let it happen again.
So you think that you have control over this?

What are you in control of right now?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:17 pm

Hi Vivien
So tell me, what do you believe yourself to be in this very moment?
A bundle of experiences, vision, thoughts and all. I don’t belief there is any self, though it often still feels as though there is.
C: This is very annoying. I won’t let it happen again.
V: So you think that you have control over this?

What are you in control of right now?
I can’t find a single thing. Nothing is being controlled. Everything is just happening by itself on autopilot.

Chris

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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:32 am

Hi Chris,

Your replies are quite short. Tell me more.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:33 pm

Hi Vivien

OK
So tell me, what do you believe yourself to be in this very moment?
There’s nothing that I can point to and say ‘this is me’. There’s just the body, sensory experiences, thoughts, habits of thought, memories, personality traits, emotions. The word me is a blanket term referring to all of these things. There’s still a feeling in my head, of looking out from behind my eyes, that I associate with the thought of me, and I have to concentrate on it before I see it as just another sensation.
C: This is very annoying. I won’t let it happen again.
V: So you think that you have control over this?

What are you in control of right now?
Again, nothing. Everything is just there. I can’t switch it off, it’s happening without any consent. Thoughts just appear out of nowhere, unprompted by any person, as does everything else. So I suppose there’s no control over whether I see it or not. I’ll just have to hope it sticks next time.

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:52 am

Hi Chris,

Please tell me about the times in your daily life when you don’t look.

What happens in your everyday life?
Does it feel like that you are a separate self being inside the body?
Does it feel like when you don’t look, that you are in charge of certain things?
That you are making decisions?
That you are thinking thoughts?
And feeling sensations, emotions, physical pain, etc?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:55 pm

Hi Vivien
What happens in your everyday life?
Thoughts just take over when I’m not being mindful. And I forget that they are just thoughts. Those thoughts make a story and I become the story.
Does it feel like that you are a separate self being inside the body?
It’s hard to say because I’m not being mindful in these moments. I only realise after the fact. I’d say it feels like the thoughts are the separate self.
Does it feel like when you don’t look, that you are in charge of certain things?
Yes, there’s a person in control of everything.
That you are making decisions?
Yes, I am the controller and decision maker, the same one as the thinker.
That you are thinking thoughts?
Yes.
And feeling sensations, emotions, physical pain, etc?
I can say that it's me feeling emotions, not sure about physical sensations.

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:28 am

Hi Chris,
Thoughts just take over when I’m not being mindful. And I forget that they are just thoughts. Those thoughts make a story and I become the story.
Then there is more work to do. It’s not about being mindful. If you need mindfulness to see that there is no manager of life, then it’s not really seen.

I’m going to be honest with you. Most of the time you are giving the right answers, but without actually, deeply seeing it. But you might convince yourself that you are actually seeing it based on some glimpses.

But seeing that there is no manager and everything is happening on its own is not something that needs to be remembered.
If it needs to be remembered, than it’s not seen.
You just want to believe that you’ve seen it.
But the one that is trying to convince itself that it has seen it, is the fictional self itself.

Can Batman see that he is not real?

Probably what is needed is a change in your attitude. How you relate to this inquiry. Because how it currently is, is not the way to go.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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chrisaaa
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Re: Chris's thread

Postby chrisaaa » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:52 am

Hi Vivien

Ok, what shall I do? I’ve been trying really hard. I dedicate most of my free time to this. I don’t know what else I can do.

Chris


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