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Re: Ready!

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:31 pm
by YGirl
Good observation. What about seeing or tasting?
The same. And this reminded me of something about thoughts you said early on - how do you know they are yours? Like sound, sight etc. how can I actually know that they originate inside my head? I can't, not really. Not in direct experience only. We are just so familiar with the 'sensation' of thought and recognise it immediately.
Then.... what is aware?
Is there a something needed to be aware?
I don't think so. Awaring is happening the whole time I am awake. There isn't something separate from it than can say, right, let's not be aware of anything for a while. If the eyes are open then seeing happens. Even some seeing of light/dark happens when they are closed. Hearing happens. If we are breathing through the nose, smelling happens and so on. However, it is not necessary for everything in awareness to be given equal attention - it seems that either attention is just pulled somewhere (for example, a sudden loud sound, something moving in an otherwise still space and so on). Sometimes it seems like 'I choose' to put attention more on one thing than another - e.g. on my work, on this screen and the typing now, on a particular bird, on the cat - and thoughts arise about the thing that more attention is on. But we've also seen that choosing isn't quite what it seems - it happens, there's a moment of choice that just happens amongst all of the thoughts and reasoning and 'I' thoughts. I'm not entirely sure what 'attention' is. For seeing, it can be that the eyes are directed towards and focused on a particular thing. But it can't be about where the sense organ is directed - you can be looking right at something but your mind is on something else (on thoughts, or sound or taste). In sound you can have your attention on something someone is saying instead of on, say, music that is playing. It seems to be about what part of the sensory experience the mind is engaged with. Often it seems like we have a choice about what the mind is engaged with, or control over it, but much of the time we don't. Say I sit down to work - you could say that I choose to engage with the work, but it just follows. Until it doesn't and I'm distracted. Then an apparent 'choice' is made to concentrate on the work again, or to go and take a break.

Re: Ready!

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:37 pm
by Jadzia
We are just so familiar with the 'sensation' of thought and recognise it immediately.
A thought informing about a thought, lol.
Say I sit down to work - you could say that I choose to engage with the work, but it just follows. Until it doesn't and I'm distracted. Then an apparent 'choice' is made to concentrate on the work again, or to go and take a break.
The story about choice, an I that makes a choice will always be there, so there is a lot of informing what happens.
As usual it is good to have a keen eye on wrong information that is giving. Like when something is seen which is far away and thought to be this but in fact is something else - this shows quite well that a lot of thoughts info is plain guessing.

But for now: Try to stop understanding for a day!
Whenever the stream of information hits in, let it stream, right now focus on what one could call the Flow of happening. It is not important what happens, how it happens, what it means, what follows from it and other info - just ┬┤fall for the flow and allow it to take you with it. If possible don't do any planning or only as little as is needed and let the flow do the work.
For example if you take a walk let the feet decide where to take you, when shopping buy what your hands grab.
You can take breaks from falling into the flow, maybe you do it for an hour or less and later again - just as the flow happens. ;-)

Share what you find.

Love
Jadzia

Re: Ready!

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:38 pm
by YGirl
Been out of action with sinusitis - explains why I was so grumpy earlier in the week!
But for now: Try to stop understanding for a day!
Whenever the stream of information hits in, let it stream, right now focus on what one could call the Flow of happening...
Share what you find.
To be honest, there's not much to report. Most of the time it's just normal day to day stuff with no different perspective or anything. Lots of the time I'm in my head. When doing something practical - e.g. cooking and cleaning up in the kitchen - occasionally I felt a sense of it all just happening without a 'me'. And sometimes I was part way through the day, and it didn't seem that long since the beginning of the day when I was thinking about what I needed to get done, but here I was, later in the day, and stuff had happened. No matter what, 'I' was moving through the day whether I liked it or not, or whether I made it happen or not. Of course, whether I actually got things done sometimes felt like an effort and like an 'I' needed to make an effort.

Re: Ready!

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:14 pm
by Jadzia
Oh dear, sinusitis is really very uncomfortable.

Yes, one can often feel that the day passes and a lot of things got done and it just happens. At other times the feeling of effort like "I really should do it now" happens and then it feels like I do/did.
The question is does this "I really should do it now" always brings action? Observe this. How often is there the idea to need pushing, like "When I don't tell myself at least ten times what I have to do nothing will get done." Is there any connection between the appearing thought and the action done?
Lots of the time I'm in my head.
This is a saying, yes, but what does it really mean?
The stream of thoughts is always flowing, always there, so what exactly happens when "I'm in my head"?
How does this work anyway in case one takes this literally?

Love,
Jadzia

Re: Ready!

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:50 pm
by YGirl
The question is does this "I really should do it now" always brings action? Observe this. How often is there the idea to need pushing, like "When I don't tell myself at least ten times what I have to do nothing will get done." Is there any connection between the appearing thought and the action done?
No, it doesn't always bring action. In fact these thoughts happen most when I'm least likely to get the thing done - a kind of guilt or cajoling of myself. e.g. I really should get up now - and then not getting up for another 20 mins. If I actually just got up, there would be no 'need' for the thought 'i really should get up now'. Occasionally it works - but when the 'should' thought comes repeatedly it's usually non-productive. So I suppose that means that the effort and the thoughts are not really connected directly to the happenings. They just feel like they are.
This is a saying, yes, but what does it really mean?
The stream of thoughts is always flowing, always there, so what exactly happens when "I'm in my head"?
Hmmm. I guess the feeling of being stuck in my head comes most when the thought streams have nothing to do with the present moment. Or when they are to do with the present moment but are unproductive - ruminations, figuring things out, explaining things. Lots of in-my-head type thoughts trying to figure out why I was/am feeling ill - what is it, what is causing it, what can I do to feel better, what are the 'must dos' for today and so on and so on - not very productive.

Re: Ready!

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:18 pm
by Jadzia
In fact these thoughts happen most when I'm least likely to get the thing done - a kind of guilt or cajoling of myself. e.g. I really should get up now - and then not getting up for another 20 mins.
So we are back to habitual thoughts and they are not the nicest and friendliest ones. The growing trust that things will be done in time without pushing or telling oneself off/down makes life much friendlier.
So keep on having an eye on the simple Happening. Nothing extra needed.
Occasionally it works - but when the 'should' thought comes repeatedly it's usually non-productive.
Well is there a cause/effect line produced by thought? Can it be that the thought merely appeared incidentally, since it repeated again and again, when action happened? So is it true that it works or is it just another story?
Hmmm. I guess the feeling of being stuck in my head comes most when the thought streams have nothing to do with the present moment. Or when they are to do with the present moment but are unproductive - ruminations, figuring things out, explaining things. Lots of in-my-head type thoughts trying to figure out why I was/am feeling ill - what is it, what is causing it, what can I do to feel better, what are the 'must dos' for today and so on and so on - not very productive.

Well, this is interesting.
So being in the head happens when thoughts do their circle thing, chewing the same stuff over and over again and if there is a trying to control life.
I mean we both no there is no one in your head, this is just a description of the situation.
But lets play with it: Where are you when this doesn't happen?

Love,
Jadzia

Re: Ready!

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:46 pm
by YGirl
So is it true that it works or is it just another story?
There's no way to know for sure that the thought 'causes' the action, so it must be another story.
I mean we both no there is no one in your head, this is just a description of the situation.
But lets play with it: Where are you when this doesn't happen?
I'm not really anywhere. It's just stuff happening. Action. Awaring. Thinking and so on. It just feels like you are 'in your head' when you are with circling thoughts, for an extended period of time, that are not related to the present moment.
So keep on having an eye on the simple Happening.
Ok. Been sitting in the garden a lot today, just resting, drinking tea, relaxing - resting up, 'trying' to get better. Watching the breeze in the leaves, the insects, hearing the summery sounds. I see there's no way to know if something seen, heard, felt etc. is 'inside' or 'outside' based only on direct experience. Thoughts are needed to say 'oh, that's a plant out there, about 2 metres away', 'it's not part of me'. Thoughts are also needed to say 'me and the plant are not separate'. So it appears that there is neither separation nor no-separation without thoughts trying to explain.

Re: Ready!

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:25 pm
by Jadzia
There's no way to know for sure that the thought 'causes' the action, so it must be another story.
Thoughts are intricately woven - so it is always a good idea to have a closer look into the "Can it be known".
Well done.
I'm not really anywhere. It's just stuff happening. Action. Awaring. Thinking and so on.
No entity I needed for all of this. It is ok that the story goes differently, just no need to believe it. ;-)
I see there's no way to know if something seen, heard, felt etc. is 'inside' or 'outside' based only on direct experience. Thoughts are needed to say 'oh, that's a plant out there, about 2 metres away', 'it's not part of me'. Thoughts are also needed to say 'me and the plant are not separate'. So it appears that there is neither separation nor no-separation without thoughts trying to explain.
Yes, there is no inside nor an outside.

Separation comes via thought.
No Separation isn't got intellectually. Thoughts can say "All is one", try it, say it out loud: All is one! There is no separation at all!
What happens? Do you get it?
There is more a sensing, feeling it to be so, experiencing it to be so. Once one opens the mouth one is back to the world of separation and words are very inadequate in describing what is.
So thoughts try to explain but can fail terribly.

Go on with the flow of Happening, feel how the stream flows or how the thoughts win the flowing. Both is fine. Go on observing what stops the flowing with the moment and what makes it easier.
Just observing, no judging, no right or wrong. What is felt when flowing with the Happening, what is felt when flowing with the thoughts?

Love
Jadzia

Re: Ready!

Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:54 am
by YGirl
Separation comes via thought.
Yup. I can see this.
No Separation isn't got intellectually. Thoughts can say "All is one", try it, say it out loud: All is one! There is no separation at all!
What happens? Do you get it?
Nope - it's like saying 'I'm a giraffe' - doesn't make it so LOL. Unless you believe you are a giraffe :-)
There is more a sensing, feeling it to be so, experiencing it to be so.
This makes me a little anxious that I won't be able to experience it, even though I had a glimpse the other week. It's as if I have to wait for something to happen, rather than 'me making it happen' which is a common theme for me - fear that the thing will never happen if I don't make it happen.
What is felt when flowing with the Happening
Things feel easier, more natural, looser perhaps
what is felt when flowing with the thoughts?
More disconnected from 'out there' when circling / chewing thoughts. When flowing with thoughts... I'm not sure. They just come and flow.

Re: Ready!

Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:19 pm
by Jadzia
Nope - it's like saying 'I'm a giraffe' - doesn't make it so LOL. Unless you believe you are a giraffe :-)
It might be different if you look into the mirror and only see a giraffe, lol.
So All is one or there is no separation can't be got intellectually, yes, one can believe it, but as usual there is another way to get it - inner knowing.
This makes me a little anxious that I won't be able to experience it, even though I had a glimpse the other week. It's as if I have to wait for something to happen, rather than 'me making it happen' which is a common theme for me - fear that the thing will never happen if I don't make it happen.
What we do here is not pointing to something totally new, it is pointing to something which is known deep down, but is covered under layers and layers of beliefs and assumptions. Strip the beliefs away and the view becomes clearer, unfogged.
And you had a glimpse - so you already have an idea that you know. :-)
Things feel easier, more natural, looser perhaps
Holding up an illusion, turning blind to not see what something is like simply costs energy. Dropping the beliefs sure makes lighter/looser.
When flowing with thoughts... I'm not sure. They just come and flow.
Flowing with thoughts is thoughts simply happening.

Here is an exercise:
Lay down, relax a bit, breathe in and out. Thoughts do their job, their thought thingy, it is ok.
Feel the body for a moment and then look at the ceiling.
Close your eyes.

Focus on the space between what might be the body and the ceiling.
What happens?

Love,
Jadzia

Re: Ready!

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:10 pm
by YGirl
Strip the beliefs away and the view becomes clearer, unfogged.
That makes sense. More work to be done on the beliefs I think. Re. no entity of self, no chooser, no controller - I sort of feel like I got it / understood it once - maybe 'head-seeing' - but that was a few weeks' ago. Maybe I need to look more at where self seems to be, to fully release the belief.
Focus on the space between what might be the body and the ceiling.
What happens?
Thanks for the exercise. Have had several goes at this. I don't really get how to focus on the space, with the eyes closed. It seems to be focusing on an idea of the space, or a visual memory of the space. And the space isn't really a tangible thing that can be sensed with touch/sight etc. - it's invisible, not felt, not heard, not tasted. I tried to sort of 'feel into it', but this was still about an idea of the space.

Re: Ready!

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:23 pm
by Jadzia
Maybe I need to look more at where self seems to be, to fully release the belief.
Well, take a piece of paper and write down everything where self seems to be. And then we have a deeper look.

In the exercise you seem to have got stuck in the thoughts, talking about space and so on.
Are eyes needed to sense space?

...it was an idea about space.... well that is telling isn't it?

When the focus is on the space between body and ceiling, what happens with body and ceiling?

Relax, trust yourself - you do know - and don't overthink like in thinking about, stretch your senses!

Love,
Jadzia

Re: Ready!

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:15 pm
by YGirl
Well, take a piece of paper and write down everything where self seems to be. And then we have a deeper look.
I went for a walk and spent some time reflecting. I'm ok with the idea that there is no chooser, no I to be responsible and so on. I think it needs to sink in more, in experience, but that's ok. I think the strongest/stickiest part left is the feeling and assumption that experience happens to 'me'. The feeling is strong, and I guess is based on an assumption. The assumption is very convincing though - as though I believe it to be a valid assumption. It's like there is an I here that knows that seeing is happening, or that pain is happening - that the whole of sense experience, thoughts and emotions are happening to 'it'. And that there is, maybe not permanence, but a strong continuity, between 'I feel this', then 'I feel that'. So memory of the past experiences as happening to 'I' and linking them to the current experiences happening to 'I'. Even though in direct experience there is only the current experience - but even with the current experience there is a strong feeling/thought/assumption or something that there is an 'I' here perhaps 'receiving' the experience. And with this, there is a strong sense of in here and out there, that we've been working on.
When the focus is on the space between body and ceiling, what happens with body and ceiling?
Still struggling with this (it occurs to me that I may be getting in my own way - so to speak - with the story that 'I'm not getting this.') Maybe a sense of them moving closer to one another - but this is just an idea too...

Re: Ready!

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:29 pm
by Jadzia
I think the strongest/stickiest part left is the feeling and assumption that experience happens to 'me'.
That belief is a tricky one to look through, the belief that the 'something that happens' and the 'someone to whom this happens' are like two different shoes. This is duality at its best. Same with the inside outside, you and me and so on.

Maybe we already did this, then just pretend we didn't:
put a hand on the table and close your eyes.
Just feel into the sensation.
Thoughts will tell "Hand on table" - fine, nothing new so far.
Let them babble and go deeper into the sensation, stretch out into the sensation, gently and patiently.

Is in the sensation a hand or a table or just the sensation hand/table?
Still struggling with this (it occurs to me that I may be getting in my own way - so to speak - with the story that 'I'm not getting this.')
I guess that is a pretty well known story, running its course for a long time - BORING! Look for the freshness and don't listen to the sticky old stuff. These kind of stories are often disheartening and go hand in hand with belittling ones efforts which eventually might lead to stopping them. Think of this: If we as kids would have thought like that we would never have managed to get walking. :-) Right?
And
the idea of not getting something is a bit like an inbuilt brake, thats ok, step by step and little breaks are ok. Just hear the story, but don't take it to heart.

Love,
Jadzia

Re: Ready!

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:40 pm
by YGirl
Thanks Jadzia - it's good you are more patient than me! LOL :-)
Is in the sensation a hand or a table or just the sensation hand/table?
It's just the sensation. Only thoughts know it's table. Only thoughts know whether I am feeling my hand or the table. Only thoughts/perspective/imagining says anything about the surface, or that there even is a surface and not just a sensation. It is possible for a few moments to just feel it as sensation without thoughts of hand or table at all, although the mind seems to want to automatically shift to one or other of 2 perspectives - thoughts about the hand and what the touch sensation feels like in the hand / say about the hand, or thoughts about the table and what the touch sensation says about the table.