Ready!

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:59 pm

Hmmm. But believing is perhaps just a thought also? Maybe 'not recognising what is true' is a better wording. Will have a look at 'belief' now!

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:00 pm

PS check the post before last too - it's gone over onto the next page now, so just wanted to say I did two posts so you don't miss the main one! Sorry!

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:48 pm

Serial posting is fine, I usually get it.
I know that past and future don't exist right now in direct experience, but they, and time in general can still be useful right?
Everything has its merits. Lovely that you see that in this moment right now there is no past or future, just this what is there right now.
Agreed. Memory, idea of past, comparing/evaluating only happens in the mind. Direct experience is looking at or doing a drawing now - of for doing a drawing it's just line by line, shaded area by shaded area, not even the whole drawing.
But just because something is only inside a thought, does that mean it doesn't have value / we should automatically discount it? I don't think so. I think we just be wary of treating as true without testing it.
Right, for the exploration it is good to challenge thoughts and slowly have the realization that quite some things aren't the way we learned it or belief it. And yes belief is another word for thought.

What if the story isn't more personal than the story of lets say a character in a series?
Can you imagine your life as a film?
Isabel Allende once said that if she would write about any lifeit would be amazing. Guess she is right, each life has it's own challenges, it's own uniqueness.
So just look at this amazing film called "My life". What if it wouldn't be personal? JGet into this just for a moment. What would you feel like? What would be different?

Love,
Jadzia

Ps:
We wouldn't survive very long if we went absolutely only what is in direct experience.
Direct looking is a valuable tool for exploring, enjoy it, and as each tool it has its merits and it's limitations. :-)

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:52 pm

Hi Jadzia,

Hope you are having a good weekend. I couldn't get this thread to load the last couple of days, but now I'm here.
What if the story isn't more personal than the story of lets say a character in a series?
Can you imagine your life as a film?
No-one wants to see this film LOL. It's quite dull. I see that this is a useful tool. What struck me the most in relation to this the last couple of days is the following. We've been watching David Attenborough's Dynasties - and we watched the episode about a pack of painted wolves in Africa. Their life is really hard and very brutal at times. They showed a new litter of puppies, and it really struck me that they didn't choose to be born into that life, but now they are there, and they are just living, doing what painted wolves do. Similarly, 'I' am here didn't choose to be born human, or in this country, or to those parents etc. But now this creature is here. And it is just living, doing what humans do.
What if it wouldn't be personal? Get into this just for a moment. What would you feel like? What would be different?
Before when I said investigating self is personal, I meant in the sense that no-one else can observe this creature's thoughts, feelings, experiences from this position, I suppose.
Playing with 'not personal' a few things happened:
- It sometimes was a way to detach from / avoid feelings, which is not necessarily helpful, but maybe useful in the heat of the moment
- What would be different? Less invested in the story. Less needing it to go a certain way.
- I suppose it would have to be a film with sensations and feeling though - with an actual film you can perhaps see/hear what the character does, and maybe feel emotions and think thoughts like the character through empathy, but you don't feel sensations, smells, tastes. You don't experience the unpleasant sensations (or the pleasant, but the thoughts arising here are objecting to the existence of unpleasant sensations that this character can't get away from).

Above I mentioned the film being quite dull. This comes from my story of my life being 'smaller' than I wanted it to be due mainly to illness, but also life being more mundane than we dreamed when we were starting out. I mentioned some time back that sometimes strong feelings arise around missing out on the life 'I should have had'. This doesn't often come up, but the last few weeks, and thinking about my life as a movie, threw some of this up again. Doing the same stuff over and over. Being settled into the everyday life of a long-term relationship. Not being able to do some things I maybe want to do. Actually, I don't even know if I want to do some of those things any more. Often I can be very content in the little day-to-day things, not needing excitement, passion, variety, adventure. But sometimes I panic that 'I' am wasting 'my' life. I think some of this fear lurks when 'working on' letting go of resistance, letting things be ok etc. This fear that if 'I' don't take control my life will be wasted. I don't even really know what that means - maybe fear of one day regretting not 'living' more. Obviously this all is tied in with feeling like a 'me' that is in 'control' or should be in control. And living is happening anyway - it just looks a particular way. Because it's not exciting, does that mean I'm 'living' less. I see a lot of this also comes from what we are 'fed' by society, media etc. We're supposed to have a fulling job, energising hobbies, a passionate relationship with 'the one'. We're supposed to have it all. And we have been taught to expect it. No wonder many of us feel disappointed. Some of this may be off topic, but it's definitely built on top of belief in a self I think. And good to get it out!

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:10 pm

You are spot on with the topic. There is a lot we can look into. :-)
......but now they are there, and they are just living, doing what painted wolves do. Similarly, 'I' am here didn't choose to be born human, or in this country, or to those parents etc. But now this creature is here. And it is just living, doing what humans do.
Yes, just doing what humans do, or wolves, lol. Yes. Just living.
Though a wolf doesn't do what humans do: question every move made, ask questions of worth, try to build what happens into a sort of congruent story, try to find sense in what is and happens and compare one wolfs life with another.
Isn't it tempting not to do all this?
It sometimes was a way to detach from / avoid feelings, which is not necessarily helpful, but maybe useful in the heat of the moment
Avoiding is always a bad idea. Living life to its fullest can mean being allowing to what is, meaning allowing all feelings, all thoughts. See life to the fullest often means, lots of work, lots of relationships, lots of party, lots of this or that. But maybe this is much simpler......

A certain desidentification, meaning not taking a feeling personal but just observe it with curiosity, this is a good idea.
All would be there, no need to hide from anything, no pushing anything away, yes, "less needing it to go a certain way".
Actually, I don't even know if I want to do some of those things any more. Often I can be very content in the little day-to-day things, not needing excitement, passion, variety, adventure.
Beautiful.
As you wrote there are so many ideas how a successful, worthy life has to be. Parents give us ideas, society, media, yes all of them.
Now do some thinking is the idea of a successful worthy life the same in all cultures? Ok, similar in all western orientated societies, but think of smaller cultural groups. If you like check documentaries about cultures which have another approach to life, it is enlightening.
Think about the life of a plant. A beetle. A stone. Worthy or not?
Now we can talk about photosyntheses and bla bla and the merits of whatever for whomever, not wrong, but the big question here is: Why is being alive not enough? Simply being, the joy of simply being alive? Not enough?
We seem to have a "not enough" culture. We grow into it, and it needs a bit of effort getting out of this prison.

You see your thoughts to this topic aren't even your thoughts, they are from others, from constructs, beliefs of others you simply took on board.
Now they are thought habits, coming up like a hick up, regurgitation - chew, down and up again, chew and so on.
And when you are suddenly not so sure if you still want what you wanted, when suddenly being simply alive is enjoyable, and you just live and don't judge or compare - yeah, beautiful.

Stay with this. Mull all this over. What if life-ing would just be enough.

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:02 pm

Though a wolf doesn't do what humans do: question every move made, ask questions of worth, try to build what happens into a sort of congruent story, try to find sense in what is and happens and compare one wolfs life with another.
Isn't it tempting not to do all this?
Really tempting. Easy to get pulled back in though by fear. But this would be such a relief. I am going to watch my cat - Eckhart Tolle once said 'I have lived with several Zen masters, all of them cats.' :-)
Now do some thinking is the idea of a successful worthy life the same in all cultures? Ok, similar in all western orientated societies, but think of smaller cultural groups. If you like check documentaries about cultures which have another approach to life, it is enlightening.
I'm going to have a look into this. In recent years, I've been increasingly questioning how we ended up with our wonderfully 'advanced' society, and how other cultures and indigenous peoples view things. I will have a look around.
Think about the life of a plant. A beetle. A stone. Worthy or not?
There isn't even the concept of worthiness. They all just are.
We seem to have a "not enough" culture. We grow into it, and it needs a bit of effort getting out of this prison.
Yes, it's stifling. And there's this fear that if you let it all go you'll be missing out. You let go for a while and it feels peaceful and freeing, and then there's a sudden panic. I will see if I can let the panic come and go without believing what it says.

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:47 pm

Easy to get pulled back in though by fear.
Can happen.
What if when the thoughts of fear come up you ask questions like:
Did these thoughts about fear happen before? The exact ones? Very similar ones?
Check if there is a new thought about fear. If not, then it is nothing but regurgitation, the chewing through of the same stuff again and again in a repeat loop.
What does this tell you?
There isn't even the concept of worthiness. They all just are.
Well deciding becoming a tree now might be a bit of too much effort, but what about just being? Allow the idea of just being enter your system a bit more and more each day.
And there's this fear that if you let it all go you'll be missing out. You let go for a while and it feels peaceful and freeing, and then there's a sudden panic. I will see if I can let the panic come and go without believing what it says.
Another fear loop, the one of missing out, be on look out for all of them, what different fears are there?
Is any of the fears significant?
Ask the above questions for thoughts about panic.

Is there a loop?
Is it significant for the moment right now?
I mean we are probably not talking about an elephant racing straight up to you.

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:27 pm

Did these thoughts about fear happen before? The exact ones? Very similar ones?
Pretty much the same ones over and over. And the same feeling.
What does this tell you?
Not sure...? It's a habit.
Is it significant for the moment right now?
No, none of the panic and fears are relevant to right now - it's more a sense of impending doom, future things - so these don't exist now. Here, now, are the thoughts and the emotion (by emotion, I'm referring to the feeling and the physiological sensations).

On Monday evening, there was a period where I felt I saw everything clearly - it was obvious that there was no self, it was really clear what was real (here now) and what was inside thoughts, and it was clear that there was no difference/separation between this creature and the rest of the physical world. It felt very light and joyous. I was experiencing pain but didn't care.

Then, in stark contrast, on Tuesdays my partner and I have a scheduled social event (currently online!!). He is often late for things. Yesterday he was really late and I was really angry - he wasn't late for a good reason but because he messed around online and didn't start to get ready until too late. I get super angry about this - and express it (!) - telling him that it's selfish and shows that he doesn't respect me and our friends etc. I see that a lot of this anger is protecting a 'self' still - one that wants to be respected and so on. It is also trying to protect 'me' from the situation of wasting 'my' time waiting for him in the future (never works - he always does this!).

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:25 pm

Not sure...? It's a habit.
Yes, it is simply habitual.
There is a whiff of something and then the programme runs automatically.
Mostly it is not really interesting, or?
Have you ever noticed that a programme runs through and it doesn't really apply to the situation you are in?
On Monday evening, there was a period where I felt I saw everything clearly - it was obvious that there was no self, it was really clear what was real (here now) and what was inside thoughts, and it was clear that there was no difference/separation between this creature and the rest of the physical world. It felt very light and joyous. I was experiencing pain but didn't care.
Beautiful.
What can happen is the so called jo-jo-ing. One minute it is clear and it is like opening up and the next minute - wham! - one is enwrapped into the story again.
It will go on for quite some time, so nothing to fight and best be taken with a good dose of humor.
Then, in stark contrast, on Tuesdays my partner and I have a scheduled social event (currently online!!). He is often late for things. Yesterday he was really late and I was really angry - he wasn't late for a good reason but because he messed around online and didn't start to get ready until too late. I get super angry about this - and express it (!) - telling him that it's selfish and shows that he doesn't respect me and our friends etc. I see that a lot of this anger is protecting a 'self' still - one that wants to be respected and so on. It is also trying to protect 'me' from the situation of wasting 'my' time waiting for him in the future (never works - he always does this!).
Programme started and off it goes......

Does anger protect the self?
Or is it a cover up for a vulnerability?
Often anger is easier to endure than sadness.

And yes, lots of our stories are about respect, or not being respected. We want to be seen and cherished and and and.... There is a strong idea how we have to be treated, bla bla bla bla
Do you know Byron Katie? Her questions can be helpful in situations like that. You find everything in the internet.

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:39 pm

Mostly it is not really interesting, or?
Not really, no. Since none of it's new.
Have you ever noticed that a programme runs through and it doesn't really apply to the situation you are in?
Frequently at nighttime when you are trying to sleep LOL. Will watch out for this during the day though.
What can happen is the so called jo-jo-ing. One minute it is clear and it is like opening up and the next minute - wham! - one is enwrapped into the story again.
It will go on for quite some time, so nothing to fight and best be taken with a good dose of humor.
Ok. Good to know. I guess the periods of clarity get more frequent and longer with more looking?
Does anger protect the self?
Or is it a cover up for a vulnerability?
Often anger is easier to endure than sadness.

And yes, lots of our stories are about respect, or not being respected. We want to be seen and cherished and and and.... There is a strong idea how we have to be treated, bla bla bla bla
Yes, I think underneath there is a wanting to be loved and treated as special - to an extent that's not at all realistic. Lot's of 'If he loved me more then bla bla bla'. What does 'I love you' even mean??! I think our society has a totally messed up view of 'love' as this untouchable perfect state/thing. And then a whole heap of unrealistic expectations are stacked on top of it. And we inherit/absorb that view. I mean all 3 words in that statement are problematic - 'I' and 'you' - as we are investigating, and 'love' isn't a clearly defined thing either.
So I guess the question is 'who' is wanting to be loved and seen as special. No who, just wanting. And both these wants would need there to be some sort of fixed separate self that can be seen and qualified and compared and related to as a fixed/known thing. When really, it's whether he loves me in the right way / enough and treats me in exactly the way my story of him wants him to love/treat my story of me. Now I'm getting confused! :-s
Do you know Byron Katie? Her questions can be helpful in situations like that.
I knew of her, but hadn't really looked into her approach. Have saved the Qs on my phone and will try them out - thanks for the pointer.

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:25 pm

I guess the periods of clarity get more frequent and longer with more looking?
Gating is really like taking the first step into another overview, it is still far from loosing all thoughts about I and clarity will be there and lost for a while longer too. Still there will be a difference.

Yes love is a word which is rather overloaded with expectations - one wonders who is able to fullfill them or live or get them fullfilled. Also it can mean so many different things to different people. And still there is love in everything, we only seem to have forgotten. Our programme tells us that we need the love of others to feel real, seen and whatever. And yes, this is the story of an entity called self which is apart from everyone and everything else.
Everything about love is a good example how stressful and hurtful the story can make life.
When really, it's whether he loves me in the right way / enough and treats me in exactly the way my story of him wants him to love/treat my story of me. Now I'm getting confused! :-s
Yeah, this is where it gets tricky, aka sticky. From the point of view of a separated person there is only a certain way that love can be recognized as love, if it comes in a different way then it can't be love and the story telling booms. Plus we expect others to see ourselve the same way our story goes....

There is one thing you could have an eye on: all this hurt/love story bits come with emotions and we think that certain thoughts trigger emotion. What is an emotion? When you look directly what do you find?

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:00 pm

Hope you are well and have had a good week. Glad it's almost the weekend!
Gating is really like taking the first step into another overview, it is still far from loosing all thoughts about I and clarity will be there and lost for a while longer too. Still there will be a difference.
No repeat of Monday's 'englightenment' yet.
And still there is love in everything, we only seem to have forgotten.
Yes, this was my experience on Monday. But I can't explain it!
What is an emotion? When you look directly what do you find?
During the time of experiencing an emotion I see physical sensations and thoughts. I'm not sure if the word 'emotion' labels only the physical sensations or the combination of a physical sensation and a particular group of thoughts. You can have e.g. fear without any thinking - for example when something startles you - the physical sensation happens without any thoughts. But you only interpret it as fear afterwards. It appears as though some emotions arise independent of story - like the automatic fear response above, while others require story to trigger them (e.g. he's late, he doesn't respect me, I'm angry... - although the thoughts seem to come after the physical sensation has started, and then feed it, but there has to be some story to be angry otherwise just something happening at a particular time wouldn't make me angry - it's due to expectation and thoughts). Maybe the actual physical survival emotions are outside of story, and only emotions connected to belief in a self are inside the story. But that's just a theory based on limited evidence - more observing would need to happen to see if that pattern holds true.

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:28 pm

No repeat of Monday's 'englightenment' yet.
Ta, partience.
It seems to be that everyone has these glimmers of what it can be, they are similar to a carrot for a donkey..... these glimmers keep you going. ;-)
Yes, this was my experience on Monday. But I can't explain it!
No need to. Words are inadequate for some experiences. Our languages support duality but some experiences are outside of it.
I'm not sure if the word 'emotion' labels only the physical sensations or the combination of a physical sensation and a particular group of thoughts.
Yes, one could describe emotion as physical sensation (somewhere in the body) + explaining thought.
And sometimes there is the "feeling as/that...." which isn't felt in the body.
Are all emotions labeled right?
How comes that we know what is what?
And does the physical sensation know it's label, meaning is the sensation fear or joy or anger?

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:06 pm

Thank you for your patience. Strong fatigue symptoms today, so not seeing / concentrating very clearly...
Yes, one could describe emotion as physical sensation (somewhere in the body) + explaining thought.
And sometimes there is the "feeling as/that...." which isn't felt in the body.
Yes, I'm not sure what mood is really, for example. Sometimes you just have a day where you feel different.
Are all emotions labeled right?
Definitely not. Sometimes there is a mix of feelings, or something you can't identify. I often mix up depression and anxiety, probably because bits of both arise. I wonder actually whether there are fewer 'base' emotions than we like to think - and that the nuances just come from the thoughts/context and then we label it differently.
How comes that we know what is what?
And does the physical sensation know it's label, meaning is the sensation fear or joy or anger?
The physical sensation doesn't know it's label. For more complex emotions we learn what they are, or infer them / label them from the context and surrounding thoughts. It's hard to see clearly, but it feels like there are some certain core emotions that we innately understand/recognise - without having to be taught or think about them. Fear is the obvious one. But then, maybe we only recognise based on memory of previous fear. It's impossible to go back to the first time we experienced the fear emotion - it could be as early as in the birth process- who knows?! Maybe it's like other sensations, but so familiar that the recognition is so immediate that it's hard to see it as separate. Still there are other times, as I mentioned above, where we have a general negative emotion or mood and have difficulty identifying it. Or maybe we recognise the feeling, but are unable to come up with why it's arising in the story. Maybe it's just a feeling and we don't have to identify it. Some need to be indentified and acted on for survival, but in our modern lives, that is very rare.
There seems to be some similarity between the sensation of negative emotions - tightening, contracting, dis-ease. And some similarity between the sensation of positive emotions - opening, relaxing, ease.
Emotions are very hard to look at clearly - they seem quite elusive, perhaps because they fluctuate. It's like trying to pin down smoke - it's there and you can see it, but when you try to look it closer it swirls or becomes transparent.

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:19 pm

Yes, I'm not sure what mood is really, for example. Sometimes you just have a day where you feel different.
It is interesting to find out what thoughts are prevalent these kinda days.
I wonder actually whether there are fewer 'base' emotions than we like to think - and that the nuances just come from the thoughts/context and then we label it differently.
A variety of shades and colours are called red, or same with green or any other colour.
Emotions/thoughts colour the day.
What if all colours are of the same value?
Each as interesting as the other? And curiosity would prevail?
Maybe it's like other sensations, but so familiar that the recognition is so immediate that it's hard to see it as separate.
Often emotion and thoughts seem to be entangled. It is a good training to sort of sit between the emotion and the thoughts - there is a little space between the two - without getting engaged with either of them.
You might like to try to make this a habit.
Emotions are very hard to look at clearly - they seem quite elusive, perhaps because they fluctuate. It's like trying to pin down smoke - it's there and you can see it, but when you try to look it closer it swirls or becomes transparent.
Clouds in the sky, lol.

Ponder upon all this and share what you find.

I hope the fatigue lifts, if it stays, observe its effect. Can you stay between the emotions appearing and the thought carousel telling why it is a nuissance and what you can't do now and how it should be?
Does one need lots of energy for looking? For clarity? Tiredness can act as bonus.... have a look. :-)

Love,
Jadzia


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