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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:55 pm

Watch like a hawk, observe - do you find a deciding or choosing entity or whatever in choosing and deciding?
No - only thoughts about a deciding/choosing entity. These come before or after the choice happens.
Over the day, each time a decision or choice is seemingly made look carefully when are the explanations rolling in before or after the decision/choice?
If there are evaluating thought content before the decision: is the decision really based on this?
It seemed hard to find genuine choices when I really looked - in many cases the variables pointed to an obvious 'choice', or the 'choice' was more 'routine'. There were some small choices though. It was difficult to pinpoint / observe the exact moment choice was made - or rather where it really came from. There were thoughts both before and after about the idea of options. But at some point one was 'chosen'. Also, it seems that the idea of 'choice' only exists in thoughts. In reality only one outcome /action happens (the 'chosen' one) - and the other never exists / extisted. For example, just now I thought 'Choose whether to put up my left arm or my right arm.' Something happened (conscious or unconscious or a bit of both). Right arm went up. The idea of a choice was only in thoughts. 'Left arm up' was only ever a thought/idea. There can't be anything separate making a choice, I don't think. 'Choice' is the outcome of variables. Sometimes the variables are obvious, sometimes they are not. But I don't think there is something separate outside of the variables making a 'final' decision. Maybe because we can't see exactly how the choice happens, because we can't see all of the variables, or things are happening too fast we label it as 'my choice'?

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:04 pm

No - only thoughts about a deciding/choosing entity. These come before or after the choice happens.
If you don't find someone choosing or deciding, then it can't be the self deciding, meaning self isn't the decider or chooser.
Do you agree with that? 100%?
Also, it seems that the idea of 'choice' only exists in thoughts.
Seems or does it?
Right now you don't seem to be so sure.
'Choice' is the outcome of variables.
How do you know this, can you know this or is this an assumption?

Thoughts claim everything and connect it to an I, a self. This is something easily observed. Icecream becomes ' I love icecream and want one now.", a car becomes "This is my car" and so on.
If this happens with things it is easy to realize, it is a tad more difficult to really get that it happens with everything else, like choices and decisions. Of course to give up the idea that we decide is a tough one.

Go on watching the process and have an ever closer look.
To not get bored, maybe you like to watch this video.
https://vimeo.com/90101368

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:03 pm

Hi Jadzia,

Still looking...
If you don't find someone choosing or deciding, then it can't be the self deciding, meaning self isn't the decider or chooser.
Do you agree with that? 100%?
I reckon I'm at about 90%! I think I agree, but need to 'catch up' with it, if that makes sense - e.g. there's still a little bit of contraction that doesn't like it (can't quite describe the feeling).
Also, it seems that the idea of 'choice' only exists in thoughts.
Seems or does it?
Right now you don't seem to be so sure.
Getting more sure.
'Choice' is the outcome of variables.
How do you know this, can you know this or is this an assumption?
It has to be an assumption. Because I keep trying to look at the moment of 'choice' but can't see a process there. I see lots of thoughts, feelings and claiming thoughts happening around the 'moment of choice'. As far as I can see, one moment I'm aware of choice having not been made, and the next moment choice has been made. I can't see anything making a choice. It's like it just appears in my mind. A movement from no clear intention, to a clear intention - for example, last night I was choosing which sleep meditation to listen to, from about 3. Memories arose of what each one was like and how much I'd listened to each recently. Then suddenly there was a certainty in my mind as 'this one' was chosen.
Despite the 'contraction' mentioned above, there was quite a lot of calmness yesterday evening at the growing realisation of not needing to 'carry' around a weight of responsibility and choosing and controlling.

Thanks for the video link - I remember this program and had been thinking about it recently with all of the looking at 'choice'!

There is a little hesitancy, diminishing I think, around choices which have consequences (or more serious consequences - the examples I've been looking at haven't been that 'important' in my story), but I think maybe they are just more loaded and the thoughts and emotions around the moment of choice make it harder to see - I will keep looking.

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:32 pm

I reckon I'm at about 90%! I think I agree, but need to 'catch up' with it, if that makes sense - e.g. there's still a little bit of contraction that doesn't like it (can't quite describe the feeling).
Nothing to be worried about. :-)
Years of conditioning won't disappear overnight. Just roll with the thoughts, admire their versatility and ability to pretend and smile a lot.
A movement from no clear intention, to a clear intention - for example, last night I was choosing which sleep meditation to listen to, from about 3. Memories arose of what each one was like and how much I'd listened to each recently. Then suddenly there was a certainty in my mind as 'this one' was chosen.
Well observed! So even the offering of thoughts before don't determine what is chosen.
Despite the 'contraction' mentioned above, there was quite a lot of calmness yesterday evening at the growing realisation of not needing to 'carry' around a weight of responsibility and choosing and controlling.
This feeling is wonderful.
Remember your question about responsibility, you are about to give yourself an answer.
Ah, and you know what? You might find also that you don't have to know everything, have an opinion on everything - just crap you've been taught that you have to. This can be quite a relief too.

Go on like that, let it sink in more and more and share whatever comes up.

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:03 pm

So even the offering of thoughts before don't determine what is chosen.
But perhaps they partially inform the 'choosing'? They are not completely removed from it. It is rare that the 'choice' is completely at odds with what is offered by the thoughts that precede it. But since the thoughts just arise too, that doesn't mean I'm saying that 'I' choose.

Overall, I think I'm missing something. Not trying hard enough? Trying too hard? Need to look at some more aspects? I am generally quite impatient, so it's no surprise that this is showing up here. And I am feeling like I need to make this happen. Which clearly points at not being there yet! (I know - already there, just don't see it). I've had a few points of clarity / ease over the last few weeks (as I mentioned in my last post), so some glimpses, but the conditioning, as you say, is strong. Rather than 'letting it settle in' it feels like 'letting it fizzle out', so the perspective shift hasn't happened yet. I see that the frustration / impatience is part of the story.
Remember your question about responsibility, you are about to give yourself an answer.
That remaining 10% on 'no self choosing' has an issue with this! I understand that it's just conditioning - they way I've always seen things, rather than truth. I felt/saw a little, the other night, the ease around no I to choose / control / be responsible, but there are objections arising around the idea of not being responsible for things (not sure where from - maybe emotional rather than fully formed objections). And not being accountable maybe. So much of society is built around the individual being responsible/accountable for his/her actions.

I think I keeping falling into thoughts / intellectualisation too much. Where to look next?

Thanks for your patience :-)

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:02 pm

But perhaps they partially inform the 'choosing'? They are not completely removed from it.
Sure these are things well informed thoughts tell..... ;-)
Thoughts are around any time, never really gone, babbling the whole time.

The thing with there being no responsibility is a tough cookie and give it time this is a topic which will become clearer with time. So the 10% are quite ok right now.

Where do you find the I, which is generally impatient?
Honestly, go searching, everywhere, even in the closet. Don't do this lightly but absolutely seriously, ok with a bit of humor.

Did you ever realize that impatience is good way to step on the brakes when there are doubts if one really wants to go a certain path? Impatience can mask fear. Impatience is that which closes, tightens.
Mull this over.

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:45 pm

Thanks for your prompts, Jadzia. :-)
The thing with there being no responsibility is a tough cookie and give it time this is a topic which will become clearer with time.
Responsibility only exists as an idea, I guess.
Where do you find the I, which is generally impatient?
I don't. It's just language. Impatience arises a lot here is maybe more accurate. I can't see an 'I' that has a quality of impatience.
Did you ever realize that impatience is good way to step on the brakes when there are doubts if one really wants to go a certain path? Impatience can mask fear. Impatience is that which closes, tightens.
Been looking at impatience. It is a particular flavour of resisting what is. It seems to show up in a couple of different types of scenario - either impatience for something unpleasant to be over, or impatience to reach a particular goal. It appears as a combination of thoughts and the feeling of anxiety, which together seem to form a compulsion to push forwards. Impatience didn't used to arise so much before I was ill, but thoughts around less energy and less time to spend seem to lead to an increase in impatient thoughts and feelings. The impatience to reach a particular goal /desired outcome - for example, here - seems to be centred on a fear that the goal will never be reached/happen.

Was watching some of Ilona's videos. She suggested that perhaps the resistance to what is is often labelled as 'I' - and that described something I've been seeing. The 'I' only 'needs' to show up to oppose life. At the middle of that resistance seems to be a little knot of contraction - a bit like the closing/tightening you mention above. It's hard to see what's there with the knot. Maybe it's only emotions.

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Sat Aug 08, 2020 4:52 pm

I don't. It's just language. Impatience arises a lot here is maybe more accurate.
Thoughts arise/turn up which inform about something called impatience, maybe a physical feeling turns up too, which will be labeled immediately.
When you look for the I and only find it in language what about a feeling or sense of I?
Been looking at impatience.
Yes, there is often some kind of anxiety behind or coming up with it.

There is something you can try:
Recall any situation where impatience arises and then embrace it fully, allow it to be! Sit with it. Really sit with it as a loving mother would sit with her child, the child might not be an easy one to hold, but it is held lovingly and compassionately.
Everything turning up simply wants to be seen.
Say "Hello Impatience, dear friend. Here you are. Spread out as far as you like, open fully - I will hold you."
Then patiently breathe and give the space needed. If there is something physically felt, ok, gently hold this too.
When you have the feeling that impatience has spread to it's fullest, give thanks and look if something is hiding behind it, maybe anxiety turns up - same game.
Repeat this as long as something turns up. Thoughts will go into story making, don't heed them, if you fall for the story, fine, simply get out of it.

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:10 pm

When you look for the I and only find it in language what about a feeling or sense of I?
Yes, there is a feeling/sense of 'I'. But I can't put my finger on it.
Repeat this as long as something turns up.
This is a practice I have tried before - and tried again today. Frustration and anger were here today, directed at physical symptoms. So I worked with what was there. Again, in the centre there is a little knot which can probably best be described as a combination of fear and sadness. It seemed to be like a shell attempting to separate off a little part and keep it safe from 'the outside'. I can't see past / inside this to see if there is really anything there. All I can see is the knot. Which comes and goes. As with previous attempts at this practice, I continued, with the same result - I just end up with an overwhelming depression. Previously (working on a theory that my illness is caused by repressed emotions) I kept looking for days, weeks... and all that happens is this depression gets bigger and more intense - it just seems to fill the available space, but unlike a gas, it doesn't get thinner to do this, more just arises. Previously, I kept going to try to see if there was anything 'underneath', but it just got to a point where everything was pointless and it was interfering with being able to function normally. If I stop focusing on the negative feelings they subside (it's like the pain - if you give it undivided attention, it grows) - the best way is to just get on with the tasks of everyday life. I don't think they are there all the time - but if you look in a particular way they show up and then grow.

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:52 pm

Thank you for your description about what happens if you try to look deeper and deeper.
It seemed to be like a shell attempting to separate off a little part and keep it safe from 'the outside'.
This is to be respected.
What happens if you don't try to dissolve it, change it or try to look behind the shell?
What about accepting that there is a part which needs to be protected right now and that this is the best which can be now?

Jadzia has a long story and part of the story was stuff needing protection, there was nothing to be done about it until one day opening happened.This is about accepting that what is. If there is a need to protect something, keeping it safe, it is ok, it is just what is needed right now. There is no forcefully getting past it - it only ends in frustration, anxiety or depression, just as you describe.
As odd as this picture might feel for you right now: You don't pull at a leaf of a plant to grow quicker, what happens is it won't grow quicker but the plant is hurt. Somehow there is an organical timing for everything, a need to grow from the inside out. Be patient, there is a time when the protection won't be needed any longer.

Maybe you can visit the shell and become friend with it?
You could thank it for doing a valuable job.
Does this make sense for you?
Yes, there is a feeling/sense of 'I'. But I can't put my finger on it.
A certain sense of an I isn't wrong. However far you walk this way you might still like to turn when a friend calls your name.
But have a look: is this sense an ownership, or anything similar to it?

Love and big Hug,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:48 pm

Thank you, Jadzia, for your compassionate and insightful words.
Maybe you can visit the shell and become friend with it?
You could thank it for doing a valuable job.
Does this make sense for you?
Yes, maybe it's ok that it's here, and to be expected even.
But have a look: is this sense an ownership, or anything similar to it?
To some extent there still is. I had the day off work and did some drawing. While in flow, no self, and no no-self (if you know what I mean), just experience. But in the pauses, and afterwards, claiming happened. The drawing went well today, and pride and 'I did that' appeared, but on closer inspection:
  • Did I really do that? Or did it happen and get claimed?
  • If there was a central controlling 'I', then every time the drawing would go well - there would be no flops. I don't have any control over when it goes well and when it doesn't. Sometimes it goes well, sometimes it doesn't. And the more I practise, the more frequently it goes well / the average goes up.
  • Then, right now, writing that previous point a little voice said - 'but I chose to practise' - on any given occasion, though, the choice whether to draw today, as I saw with other choices, just happens, even if there are thoughts around it. I still seem to be claiming the general intention to 'be someone who draws', which is maybe ridiculous, as it only comes down to what what happens each and every day.
So, after looking at all this, I can conclude that there is no ownership, but this doesn't come naturally yet. And there is still a little part resisting.

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:33 pm

es, maybe it's ok that it's here, and to be expected even.
The '..to be expected even' points to a rat tail called story. What if you could look at that what is there without an expectation of what you find?
Sometimes there are surprises...... ;-)
While in flow, no self, and no no-self (if you know what I mean), just experience.
To say there is a self is as wrong as to say there is no self. Funny, eh?
If there was a central controlling 'I', then every time the drawing would go well - there would be no flops. I don't have any control over when it goes well and when it doesn't. Sometimes it goes well, sometimes it doesn't. And the more I practise, the more frequently it goes well / the average goes up.
Right, and what about being more advanced? Same there the "Sometimes it goes well, sometimes it doesn't."
The last sentence is a thought aka guess/prediction, or?
I still seem to be claiming the general intention to 'be someone who draws', which is maybe ridiculous, as it only comes down to what what happens each and every day.
Does this ominious I do the claiming or is this just a thought pretending that there is an I claiming something?
See the difference?

It is very important to differentiate between thought from that what can be experienced directly.
Check a thought and see what it is about. Is it about something that can be experienced or not? What is about the life just happening and what is guesswork, assumption, pretending, and many more? Don't take thoughts for face value never ever.
What can be really known?
A thought like "... and he does it because....." or "Christopher Columbus didn't reach America", none of what these thoughts are about is about life just happening, one is an assumption (always tricky stuff especially in relationships) and the other one is parroting something you learned, but one can't know it right now, in this moment how do we know that there is or was a Columbus at all?

Play around with this a bit and share what you find. Thoughts are tricky little fellas, too.....

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:03 pm

The '..to be expected even' points to a rat tail called story. What if you could look at that what is there without an expectation of what you find?
Sometimes there are surprises...... ;-)
I'm trying! Feels a bit easier in/around the shell like that. Right now, in this moment, there is no experience of the shell - maybe it's just too hot to feel anything other than hot!
Sometimes it goes well, sometimes it doesn't. And the more I practise, the more frequently it goes well / the average goes up.
The last sentence is a thought aka guess/prediction, or?
Well, if I look through my sketchbooks, I can see improvement over 'time'. So not just a thought.
Does this ominious I do the claiming or is this just a thought pretending that there is an I claiming something?
See the difference?
It must be a thought, because I can't see an I. Just the thoughts 'I did that.' 'I draw' etc. It still feels like an 'I'. There does seem to be a bit less need to claim identity. Been observing where claiming identity shows up - most frequently when I'm trying to assert a view of me (mine and others) that is being 'threatened'. A couple of areas of stickiness... 1. Being smart - if I do/say something stupid / dumb, there is a need for assertion of the 'clever me'. 2. My weight - 'I' was always slim until I had various illnesses, now I'm not. If just being in experience then not aware of this. But thoughts about 'I' come up - 'I' need to lose weight, 'I'm' not really a fat person, it's not my fault' and so on. All in thoughts though.

Re. accountability - I can see that this is just an idea. Still feeling somewhat responsible for life / choices etc. although I can understand that 'I am responsible' and 'I chose that' are just thoughts, all that exists in DE are the actions.

I think I might need to do a bit more focused looking in direct experience... suggestions?

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:46 pm

Right now, in this moment, there is no experience of the shell - maybe it's just too hot to feel anything other than hot
It is very hot here, too.
What you can do if you like is to look for the shell on good days just to say "Hi" and "Thank you for the job you do, apreciate it".
Well, if I look through my sketchbooks, I can see improvement over 'time'. So not just a thought.
Isn't this a thought? ;-)
What is over time?
What does one need for being able to say that?
Memory, the moment one looks at pictures, an evaluation and judgement - or?
Where does this happen?
And what is only there in the direct experience, in the moment?
Been observing where claiming identity shows up - most frequently when I'm trying to assert a view of me (mine and others) that is being 'threatened'.
Amazing, right?
There is a story and others have to see the story the way we do. Story defends itself, trying to keep up the status quo.
The story in itself isn't a problem, thoughts never are, so what is the problem?
I think I might need to do a bit more focused looking in direct experience... suggestions?
You already do. Always always check what only happens in thought and what is really direct experience.

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:56 pm

Isn't this a thought? ;-)
What is over time?
Well, yes, but based on some visible evidence. I know that past and future don't exist right now in direct experience, but they, and time in general can still be useful right? For example, let's take a kid who can't read yet - when they try they might in that moment not like it, not be very good at it and find it frustrating, but they/we know that over time they will get better and the end result will be worth it. If you completely discounted past and future / passing of time, you would try once and then not bother again. You would never learn anything because the pay of is never immediate.
What does one need for being able to say that?
Memory, the moment one looks at pictures, an evaluation and judgement - or?
Where does this happen?
And what is only there in the direct experience, in the moment?
Agreed. Memory, idea of past, comparing/evaluating only happens in the mind. Direct experience is looking at or doing a drawing now - of for doing a drawing it's just line by line, shaded area by shaded area, not even the whole drawing.
But just because something is only inside a thought, does that mean it doesn't have value / we should automatically discount it? I don't think so. I think we just be wary of treating as true without testing it. And it's ok to take something on someone else's word if you evaluate it to be reasonable - for example, I don't know, in direct experience, that coronavirus exists. I have literally zero evidence on that basis. But I trust that it isn't a giant hoax, and that it is sensible to practise good hygiene etc. We wouldn't survive very long if we went absolutely only what is in direct experience. And if we did we would have to learn literally everything from scratch ourselves from the ground up. There would be no civilisation, no medicine etc. etc.

But, self, for example, is different, since it's personal. No-one else can tell you anything about self / no self - unless one day a scientist can actually measure / detect something in you personally (LOL), so all you have to go on is direct experience vs thoughts.
The story in itself isn't a problem, thoughts never are, so what is the problem?
Believing the story to be true? And if, by believing it, unpleasant emotions, unkindness to others etc. arise there is a lot of unnecessary unpleasantness. And if by believing it, you expend lots of energy resisting, trying to change something etc. again lots of unnecessary unpleasantness happens.


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