True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7037
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby Vivien » Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:24 am

Hi Vikram,
I find the I as a thought which gets Identifies with thought like I am thinking..
So a thought is identifying with another thought? Are you sure about this?

Is this even possible? Is a thought a living independent entity with its own free will and actions, so it can notice another thought, and identify with them?

What can a thought do?
Is a thought a living entity?
Can a thought notice another thought?
Does a thought have volition and free will?
Can a thought think?
Can a thought identify itself with other thoughts?
I do not know if I am looking it clearly.. Might i need more pointers to see...
What I see is only continuous flow of thought, I is also a thought - a story that we have been told to believe. This created a separate personality, separate self that we have been believing throughout our life. This Believe created an Identity and the glue to this identity is this story of the self which is persevered as a separate self. Like I am an engineer, I am a doctor, I am writing, I am a genius.. this all are label of a separate self that we are believing, we are. But upon looking this all believes falls down.
The thing is that you are thinking and theorizing and speculating.
It’s not coming from looking, but rather from logical conclusions.

Dear Vikram, your intellect is NOT needed.
Actually, it’s in the way.
Honestly, your intellect is utterly useless in this investigation.
Reality doesn’t need thoughts to exists. Reality doesn’t need intellectual analyses.
Reality is very simple.
But if your focus is on thinking and not on experiencing, that you cannot see the simplicity of experience.

How identity is experienced in this very moment? By which of the five senses?
And how does identification is experienced in this very moment? By which of the five senses?

And what is the difference between experience and thinking?

I do not know if I am looking it clearly.. Might i need more pointers to see...
Your problem is not the lack of pointers, but that you are not looking into the direction of those pointers, since you are thinking about the answers, instead of investigating your own experience.

Please go back to the previous questions I gave you about identity, and look with them one-by-one. And reply to them one-by-one, don't bulk-reply.

And what is it precisely that identifies with thoughts?
What is it that needs an identity?
What does identity stick to? What is it that it hooks onto?
What is the glue of identity made of?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
vikramksinha
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby vikramksinha » Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:46 pm

So a thought is identifying with another thought? Are you sure about this?
No, thoughts are free flowing. One by one. Sometimes there are one thought leads to other thoughts and sometimes a different thought altogether. Thought do not identify with another thought.. It's just come and disappear.
Is this even possible? Is a thought a living independent entity with its own free will and actions, so it can notice another thought, and identify with them?
No, it's not possible i could see that now. There is just stream of thoughts without any control. There is no one who could control the thought even after wanting. It does not have its own free will because it's not a living independent entity. Thoughts are not real.
What can a thought do?
Is a thought a living entity?
Can a thought notice another thought?
Does a thought have volition and free will?
Can a thought think?
Can a thought identify itself with other thoughts?
Thought can not do anything because it's not a real thing. It's does not notice any other thought, it just come and disappear on it's own.. without a controller sitting there to control it. All the thoughts patters are the past experiences, future desire and fears and conditioning from childhood.

========
How identity is experienced in this very moment? By which of the five senses?
Identity is like a label to something.. like a tag. We get our identity from the society where we live and where we work. There is this body doing breathing, thinking, eating even without this identity. This Identity can't be experienced by of the five sense because it doesn't exists.

And how does identification is experienced in this very moment? By which of the five senses?
In this very moment I just see this body doing it's function like, breathing is happening automatically, brain analyzing as I am typing now.. There is no Identity I see in this very moment by any of the five senses.. I do not know how to put it but this identity is like accepted concept without any trial to prove it's existence. We just have accepted it that we are having so and so name and this much bank balance... list goes on about the self.
And what is the difference between experience and thinking?
Experience can happen only at present moment. Experience happens from the five senses. But the Thinking is just made up stories by brain of how something could be without actually knowing about it. Thinking exists in past and future but never in now.

========
And what is it precisely that identifies with thoughts?
Nothing identifies with thoughts. It tried hard to experience it but I can't might be because there is nothing get identify with the thoughts. Thoughts are free flowing coming and disappearing.
What is it that needs an identity?
Identity is just a concept told to us and we are believing it without having it's existence proved. Nothing needs an identity.. Nothing needs to get identified.. because nothing is happening because of me.. everything is happening on it's own.. eating, digestion, breathing, analyzing, coming and disappearing of thoughts.. everything is happening on it's own.. but this I thing reboots and pickup everytime that I am doing this.. might be this is because of habit or protective nature of the brain.
What does identity stick to? What is it that it hooks onto?
I tried hard to look but I do not find identity to stick to anything because it's just not a real thing. It's just a concept of who we thing we are. A thought of ourselves.
What is the glue of identity made of?
I am not finding any glue for identity. After looking so hard I am just unable to find it might be it simply doesn't exist. This Identity is just a thought of who we are. Thought of "I"

Vikram

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7037
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby Vivien » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:43 am

Hi Vikram,
brain analyzing as I am typing now..
Thinking is just made up stories by brain
might be this is because of habit or protective nature of the brain.
You’ve been mentioned the brain 3 times. So let’s investigate it.
brain analyzing as I am typing now..
Please type again, and while you type, investigate:

HOW do you know that the brain is analysing?

Can you actually OBSERVE the brain PERFORMING the ACT of analysing?

And how is the brain perceived in this very moment?
By which of the 5 senses?

Thinking is just made up stories by brain
How do you know that thinking is just made up stories by the brain?
Where is the EXPERIENTIAL evidence for this claim?

Can you OBSERVE the brain as it’s making stories?

Is the brain the thinker?

might be this is because of habit or protective nature of the brain.
Can you OBSERVE the brain as it performs the act of protecting?

The brain has habits? How do you know this? Where is the EXPERIENTIAL evidence for the brain having habits?

The brain has nature? How do you know this?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
vikramksinha
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby vikramksinha » Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:18 pm

Hi Vivien,
Here are my replies.
HOW do you know that the brain is analyzing?
I know this from the school. It have been taught that the analyzing function is done by brain.

Can you actually OBSERVE the brain PERFORMING the ACT of analyzing?
No, I do not observe the brain performing the act of analyzing. Analyzing also just happening. It's a learnt fact from school that brain does the analyzing thing. But I see that now the observation needs only observation and what is there here and now in the experience and not require to refer the science book to know the source or origin, since all the functions are happening on it's own... it's very clear

And how is the brain perceived in this very moment?
By which of the 5 senses?
No, brain has not been perceived by any of the senses in this very moment. Here and now only seeing happening, analyzing happening, but who is doing that is unknown.

============
How do you know that thinking is just made up stories by the brain?
Where is the EXPERIENTIAL evidence for this claim?
I looked for the evidence of this claim but again i am not able to produce it. I do not find any brain making any stories. Thinking is just happening. Every name, every label, every concept gives rise a thought of speculation to know the thing before actually knowing it. The intellect come in between the experience of what is here and now versus what we know.
Can you OBSERVE the brain as it’s making stories?
No, I do not observe brain here and now, not in experience. My experience is only thoughts without the source.
Is the brain the thinker?
Might it be according to the researcher that thought is product of neuron movement in the brain run for exchanging information. This is a learnt fact. But on experience here and now there is only thoughts.. thinker is unknown.

=============

Can you OBSERVE the brain as it performs the act of protecting?
Again this is a learnt fact that brain do protecting of the body. It gives various signal to the body incase of any danger felt/seen. This causes the body to act at that instant of time to mitigate the danger. But as I look closely, i do not see brain doing this.. rather it's just happening. The sensation of fear is just happening but the doer is not known.
The brain has habits? How do you know this? Where is the EXPERIENTIAL evidence for the brain having habits?
Hmm.. brain do not have habit but the thoughts are habitual. I do not know how but yes it is like that that's why depressed people mostly have negative thoughts everytime.
The brain has nature? How do you know this?
Every organ inside the body have got certain task to do.. that's there nature. I mean, kidney does does not do funtion of heart and liver does not function of kidney. I called brain has nature in that sense.
On looking closing without mixing the learnt fact and intellect.. thinking is just happening, looking is just happening, breathing is just happening, Analyzing is just happening, thought of fear and thought of being safe coming and disappearing. Brain has nothing to do with it as I do not experience brain doing all this. Do not find any doer behind all this.. No brain.. Sometimes there is thought that brain that is doing, sometimes self.

Vikram

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7037
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby Vivien » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:50 am

Hi Vikram,

You are still relying quite heavily on what you learned in school. While this information is useful in everyday life, they are hindrances in seeing reality as it is.

Since the notion of brain and the brain thinking is not something you’ve ever directly experienced. It’s just a learned information, which is just a BELIEF and not an experience.

And our whole investigation is about seeing the difference between beliefs/thoughts (fiction) and experience (reality).

You have to put aside ALL your intellectual knowledge.
You don’t need them. They are in the way.
You only need to notice what is here now, in the immediacy of experience / reality.

Almost everybody believes that “I am thinking”. So let’s start to investigate this.

What do you do exactly in order to think?
How do you make (or birth) thoughts into existence?


Please be careful not to think about these questions, but actually sit and NOTICE how you think, how you do it exactly. So don’t go to theories, speculations, philosophy, or any learned information. Just notice what is happening here now in the immediacy of your own experience.

Please spend a whole day investigating these questions. Look again and again and again. Even if the answer seems to be clear, look more.

This investigation is about persistent repetition. Looking at the same thing again and again in experience, what brings about the realization.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
vikramksinha
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby vikramksinha » Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:28 pm

What do you do exactly in order to think?
I tried hard but I am unable to find out what i do for thinking.. but thoughts actually come and as soon as it gets noticed, thoughts gets disappear. There is only this notice that there was thinking going on and it disappeared as it got noticed. Every thoughts that I noticed is either from the past or from the desires of future, they are very random.
How do you make (or birth) thoughts into existence?
I don't know how to put it what i have observed.. I tried to find out how I make the thoughts come into existence but I failed everytime I look. I just found there were some thoughts going on.. thoughts actually come into existence automatically there is no part of me doing any effort to make thought come into existence.. even if I tried to control that certain thing I will not think.. but even that is not in my control.. thoughts starts as like a self talk..like a sound.. a instruction to the self.. like something inside is talking about what to do next and mistakes I have made in the past and many more go unobserved. Even the song I heard appeared as thought of sound at very unexpected time when there is nothing going on.. and frankly there is no control over it.. I mean it just come and go (I know it' just a thought and it does not have power to do anything unless I react to that particular thought.)

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7037
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby Vivien » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:23 am

Hi Vikram,

You did a nice investigation :)

Seeing this is essential, so please look for another day.

Is there any control over any thought?
Can you choose your next thought?
Can you prevent any thought from appearing?
Can you stop thinking by will for 10 minutes, without a single thought?
Is there any thought, ANY at all, that is done or thought by someone, and not just appeared automatically, on its own?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
vikramksinha
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby vikramksinha » Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:00 pm

Hi Vivien,

Here are my replies :
Is there any control over any thought?
Control appears to be there but when it slips away I do not know. And it creates friction.. a struggle between the free flowing thought and what is to be thinking.
Can you choose your next thought?
No I can not choose any of the thought. It's useless. I do not generate thought, it's very random. It comes on it's own.. and disappear as soon as it get noticed.
Can you prevent any thought from appearing?
No, I can not.
Can you stop thinking by will for 10 minutes, without a single thought?
I tried it many times but I failed every time. When the control sliped away I do not know. You see, there is always thoughts going.. continuously flowing. When you do something or you do not do anything.. It's like an instruction to the self is going on.
Is there any thought, ANY at all, that is done or thought by someone, and not just appeared automatically, on its own?
Thoughts are appearing and disappearing own it own. I can not choose what to think.. I can't control not to think.. thoughts are very random. It's coming and going on it's own.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7037
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby Vivien » Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:38 am

Hi Vikram,
When the control sliped away I do not know.
What do you mean by ‘control slipped away’? How?

Is there a control over any thought at all (without exception)?

Please look at this very carefully, many-many times during the day.

Look until there is no shred of doubt whether there is a thinker or not.
Also if there is control over thoughts (even just a slightest) or not.

Let me know what you find.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
vikramksinha
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby vikramksinha » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:53 pm

Hi Vivien,

Accept my apology. There has been very busy schedule I could not post my reply. Please allow me sometime.


Vikram

User avatar
vikramksinha
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby vikramksinha » Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:42 pm

Hi Vivien,
What do you mean by ‘control slipped away’? How?
I meant to say that there is only seems to have control.. a thought that I am controlling the thought and when the control slips ways (as in thoughts starts to appear automatically) I do not know because I do not have any control over it.. it's just a thought that I am controlling.. thoughts are free flowing, random and appear - disappear on it's own.
Is there a control over any thought at all (without exception)?
No, there is no control over the thought, any of it. No controller at all.

Vikram

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7037
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby Vivien » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:32 am

Hi Vikram,

So what is not automatic?

Is there anything that doesn’t happen effortlessly on its own?


Please look at these in the midst of your everyday life. Watch like a hawk to notice if there is anything that is done and not just happening on its own.

Let me know what you find.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
vikramksinha
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby vikramksinha » Wed Aug 12, 2020 5:19 pm

Hi Vivien,

Sorry for my late post.. I did take a little time to see and contemplate all these.. There was that fear and conflict of losing control out of my hand were holding me to go further and see.. but finally it's here and seen clearly..
So what is not automatic?
I did not find anything that is not happening automatic or that is done by me. The seeing, hearing, sensing, thinking, digestion, assimilation, breathing, hair grows, nail grows, body changes.. everything is happening on its own.. even the choices that we take is happening automatically based on our experience though it seems otherwise.
Is there anything that doesn’t happen effortlessly on its own?
No there is nothing that is not happening effortlessly.. though it seems opposite. The breathing, seeing, sensing all the bodily functions happening effortlessly... even sometimes we forget that the body is breathing but body does it's function perfectly.. even if I see outside.. the universe is functioning effortlessly and perfectly.. the earth revolution, the gravity, raining, and you name it.. it's all functioning automatically and effortlessly.. there is no part of me doing any of this.

It is a great wisdom seeing this.. it was very obvious.. it was here all the time.. why I haven't seen that before. There was that ego (thought of me) or unquestioned belief you can say that was saying, I do this and that.. I am losing control and I control this.. blahh..blahh.. but now i see it's all happening automatic.

Vikram

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7037
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby Vivien » Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:30 am

Hi Vikram,
It is a great wisdom seeing this.. it was very obvious.. it was here all the time.. why I haven't seen that before. There was that ego (thought of me) or unquestioned belief you can say that was saying, I do this and that.. I am losing control and I control this.. blahh..blahh.. but now i see it's all happening automatic.
Great! You did a nice investigation.

Is the fear of losing control still here, or it’s gone?

Let’s dig a bit deeper. Please spend as much time as you can in the midst of your daily life to observing and noticing how the body moves, how it feels, what it does.

You can notice how the legs are moving as walking happens.
When walking, what do you do in order for the legs to move?
Are you making walking happen, or it just happens automatically and effortlessly?

When you sit down, or stand up, is this something you do, or something that is happening?


Notice all sorts of sensations in the body.
Are you making the sensations happen, or they are there, without anyone or anything making them to be?

When breathing happens, are you making it to happen, or it happens automatically without anyone making it happen?

When preparing food, or eating, washing your hands, typing, brushing your teeth, dressing up, are you making the hands move, or the hands just move by themselves?

Is there a central controller somewhere in the body, from where strings are pulled to lift the arms, and move the body? Or all of it just happening automatically?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
vikramksinha
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby vikramksinha » Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:53 pm

Hi Vivien,
It was very busy week in the office so couldn’t concentrate much but I did my observation whenever I got breaks from work, while eating, bathing or in the washroom.
I will post my reply tomorrow.

Thank you for all your support in this investigation.

Vikram


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests