True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

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vikramksinha
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby vikramksinha » Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:56 pm

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for your intriguing questions.
I just see thought, thought and thought. No mind,
no brain. Brain is again a label given to a organ like Vikram given to this body. The thought is just appearing don’t know from where and disappearing do not know to where.
It’s just a learnt fact from school that brain do the thinking but on looking it is not in experience. Only thought is in experience and it is real but I do not see it’s source.

Vivien, but is it possible that there is something which do not have any source? I mean yes on looking there is just thought but am I not seeing something here. Why I do not see it’s source. And who is doing this looking, I mean this body is me is a thought, ‘My’ body is a thought so me as a body and my body - is just falsified. Then who is doing this looking and where is this I LOCATED. Who is leading this life. Is this thought leading this life. ??

I know I am asking a lot many things at once. Might be these again a thought. But believe me I am totally confused, frustrated and questioning my existence. I am feeling like identity crisis at this very moment.

Please help me.

Vikram

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Vivien
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby Vivien » Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:50 am

Hi Vikram,
But believe me I am totally confused, frustrated and questioning my existence. I am feeling like identity crisis at this very moment.
Yes, exactly, this is about identity. Seeing no self means that it’s clear that there is literally nothing to identify with, since the one, the I, who would want to identify simply doesn’t exist.

And you might be shocked, since you came here with the desire to get rid of suffering. You didn’t really come here with the intention to see that the one that is suffering simply doesn’t exist, right?

You just heard that enlightenment or awakening can lessen or stop suffering, so you thought, this is exactly what I want. Is this so?

But as now you started doing the investigation, now you are starting to discover that this me, who is suffers, might not exists. And now you are shocked and confused.

Since your original interest was about stopping suffering, and not about seeing that there is no me who suffers. Is this so?

Now, I would like to ask you to go back to my post to your expectations, and read them through very carefully.

And really consider if this what you want. If you REALLY want to see that there is no me, no real Vikram, other than a concept.

Because this inquiry is about only one thing, to see that there is no self, no me, no Vikram in reality. That these words don’t point to anything real.

Please let me know if you want to go further on not. You don’t have to this inquiry if this is not what you are after.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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vikramksinha
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby vikramksinha » Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:19 am

you might be shocked, since you came here with the desire to get rid of suffering. You didn’t really come here with the intention to see that the one that is suffering simply doesn’t exist, right?

You just heard that enlightenment or awakening can lessen or stop suffering, so you thought, this is exactly what I want. Is this so?
I agree that suffering was the motivation for me know "who am i" and why do we have suffering. I see now there is conflict because of how the enlightenment being presented to us. If you see videos and books on enlightened, they still associate the I, ME with awareness, consciousness, spaciousness etc. and that it's state of complete bliss and no sorrow. In east this enlightenment is presented as the highest knowledge that one could achieve and this knowledge give you MOKSHA or you can say the knowledge of one who do not die. After knowing that one is free from cycle of birth and death.. all these. They say we are suffering because we do not know ourselves.

All These create altogether a different image of how enlightenment would be versus how it actually is. I came here to know "who am I" but I am moving towards there is no I. I am coming to know all the believes and we have is only anchored to thoughts and points to only concepts but not a reality. All our existence of "I" and "I am" is a thought yet it feels so real.


Since your original interest was about stopping suffering, and not about seeing that there is no me who suffers. Is this so?

As i mentioned above, yes my motivation was suffering which led me to wonder in search of peace and the truth. Truth in any form is the truth. We do not know how it should be unless we know it. I must know the truth in it's raw form that there is no self who is suffering. This me is only a concept and not the reality.
I wonder how glorious our books have made this enlightenment thing but in reality it's very ordinary. It was always here but we didn't look. If you search for a video on enlightenment, there will you find thousands of videos on this single topic and language and presentation used for explaining this make it so complicated and something out of the world experience then it actually is.

If the enlightenment is only about knowing there is no one who is getting enlightenment.. there is no I,ME,self. I want to know that. I want to see that myself and done with it once for all.

Now, I would like to ask you to go back to my post to your expectations, and read them through very carefully.

And really consider if this what you want. If you REALLY want to see that there is no me, no real Vikram, other than a concept.
I went through the entire thread once again.. it reflects to me that whatever the expectations that i kept while searching for this truth is based on whatever i read and heard but now as the curtain is getting unfold, i am realizing how i was caught up in a thought of a different "I" that i would become. I was not not looking the truth rather i had created a mental image of how it could be once i know it without actually knowing it.

Yes, I want to know to the truth. I do not want to stop here. since the glass of thought is now getting visible, I want to see through it.

Vikram

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Vivien
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby Vivien » Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:50 am

Hi Vikram,

There are lots of misunderstanding about awakening out there. With all sort of ideas, and dreams about having a perfect life, floating in bliss all the time, and such.
they still associate the I, ME with awareness, consciousness, spaciousness etc. and that it's state of complete bliss and no sorrow. In east this enlightenment is presented as the highest knowledge that one could achieve and this knowledge give you MOKSHA or you can say the knowledge of one who do not die.
This is a very common spiritual belief/concept, which is quite enchanting, since this romantic idea leaves a room for the imaginary self to be something real. And this imaginary self is masquerading as awareness in a form of pleasant sensations, this self is untouched by the ‘harsh reality of life’. Since it’s just observes what happens, but always untouched by anything, even by death. So this idea is very attractive… since I can live on forever… I will never die… I can never be hurt… I am always pure and untouched.
Yes, I want to know to the truth. I do not want to stop here. since the glass of thought is now getting visible, I want to see through it.
Great! :) Then let’s dig deeper.
Let me go back to your previous comments, where we left off:
Vivien, but is it possible that there is something which do not have any source? I mean yes on looking there is just thought but am I not seeing something here. Why I do not see it’s source.
When we investigate thoughts, our aim is not to speculate what could be the source, when we can clearly see that there is none.

The aim is to see that thoughts appear on their own, without anyone or anything making them happen.
So please have another look (actually look at it many-many times, again and again).

Is there anything at all that is making thoughts happen?
Or all thoughts appear on their own, effortlessly?


Be careful not to speculate, but actually notice how thoughts comes and goes.
And who is doing this looking
This question is based on the assumption that there must be a subject, a doer, who/what makes things happen. This assumption comes from language, which is dualistic. (subject – doing – object)

Look at the clouds and rain and storms.
Is it cloud that does the raining? Or the rain that rains itself? Or is it water that does falling? Or certain conditions make raining happen?
And what is deciding to turn the rain into a storm or hurricane?
And what makes the rain stop? Is it the sky’s doing?
Is there a doer of rain? Is there something or someone making the rain happen?
Is it possible that no one starts the rain?
Is it possible that cloud doesn’t choose to rain?


Now look, what is it that is doing the looking? Is there any one making it happen, or it’s happening automatically, on its own?
Who is leading this life. Is this thought leading this life. ??
In order to lead life, there has to be some sort of agency, or entity.

Is thought an entity?
does a thought have volition?
What can a thought do?


Please be very careful not to think about the answer, but actually investigate what you can see and observe in your immediate experience BEFORE any thought interpretation.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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vikramksinha
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby vikramksinha » Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:49 pm

Is there anything at all that is making thoughts happen?
Or all thoughts appear on their own, effortlessly?
Thoughts are coming and disappearing without any permission. There is no control over it. if I want not to think still thoughts come on it's own without any seeming source. sometimes i am getting lost in the thoughts even while doing the things outside and then start looking at thoughts as it appears and disappears. As i look closer, All thoughts are results of past experiences, desires and expectations.


Is it possible that no one starts the rain?
Is it possible that cloud doesn’t choose to rain?
Cloud is again a label given to water in different form. Sun heat up the water bodies. This converts water into vapor and accumulates at one place freely floating in the sky and when a certain condition met cloud water again falls on earth. This all thing is happening automatically, no one is doing it.. neither cloud choose to rain nor the rain itself choose to fall.

Now look, what is it that is doing the looking? Is there any one making it happen, or it’s happening automatically, on its own?
When eyes are open I am seeing letters as type and when eyes are close nothing can be seen. ahhaa.. meaning i cannot see with close eyes even I want to and can't choose to not see with open eyes even I want to. Seeing is happening when again certain condition met like light and it's reflection. So this looking happening automatically. There is no one who is doing this looking. It's just happening own it's own. It's amazing.. Wow. I am not doing this.. I am not the doer here.

Is thought an entity?
does a thought have volition?
What can a thought do?

No thought is not an entity. It do not have any independent existence. Sometimes one thought proceeds with another related thoughts and sometimes altogether a different thought. But every thoughts are a result of past experiences, future desires and fears. It does not have it's own existence.

No thought do any have any power/will of it's own it's free floating on the mental plan. It just seems so otherwise once the I is identified with it. So the thought do nothing but only appear and disappear but if I get's identified with the thought it seems then the thoughts have got the power to do somethings.


Vikram

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Vivien
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:15 am

Hi Vikram,
There is no one who is doing this looking. It's just happening own it's own. It's amazing.. Wow. I am not doing this.. I am not the doer here.
Nice investigation :)
No thought do any have any power/will of it's own it's free floating on the mental plan. It just seems so otherwise once the I is identified with it.
Are you saying that there is an I OUTSIDE of thoughts, and this I is identifying with thoughts?

Where is this I that identifies with thoughts?

Can you observe this I here and now?
What is it in the very moment as you observe it?
What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?

How the I as such is experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?

sometimes i am getting lost in the thoughts
WHERE is this I that can get lost in thoughts?

And what is it precisely that identifies with thoughts?
What is it that needs an identity?
What does identity stick to? What is it that it hooks onto?
What is the glue of identity made of?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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vikramksinha
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby vikramksinha » Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:17 pm

Hi Vivien,

I will post my reply tomorrow.

Vikram

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Vivien
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:43 pm

All right, thank you for letting me know.
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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vikramksinha
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby vikramksinha » Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:49 pm

Hi Vivien,

I extend my apologies not being able to post my reply as I was running busy from past 2 days because of work and family commitments. I am posting my comments of what I observed here and now.
Are you saying that there is an I OUTSIDE of thoughts, and this I is identifying with thoughts?

Where is this I that identifies with thoughts?
As I looked and looked.. there is thoughts and there is this thought that "I am thinking" . As i am typing this there is thought that "I am writing". Same way.. there is this thought that "I am doing".. I am working".

Outside I see this body performing every functions without any controller but there is this thought that "I am the controller". So i say that there is no I OUTSIDE of the thought. I can't touch it, smell it, see it because it's just a thought.
WHERE is this I that can get lost in thoughts?

And what is it precisely that identifies with thoughts?
There is only thought I do not see any I outside of the thought. sometimes there is continuous flow of thoughts and then there is little gap between thoughts and then there is different thoughts. So, I is not there to get lost anywhere. It's just thoughts.. it's thought that is identifying with the thoughts.. like thought "I am thinking", "I am eating", "I am the doer" etc. Actually this body is eating but there is the thought "I am eating".

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Vivien
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby Vivien » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:57 am

Hi Vikram, you forgot to reply to the second parts of the questions. Please look with those too, very thoroughly
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Vivien
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby Vivien » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:59 am

As I check it now, actually not with the second part, but rather you cherry picked some question. Please always reply to all questions... you can never know when you miss an important pointer.
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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vikramksinha
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby vikramksinha » Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:11 pm

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for pointing out.
Yes, you are right I was missing the important pointers here specially in the second part of the questions. Allow me sometime, I will post my replies of all the questions.

Vikram

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Vivien
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby Vivien » Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:50 am

All right, please be thorough.
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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vikramksinha
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby vikramksinha » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:11 pm

Hi Vivien,

Here are my replies for all of the pointers:
Are you saying that there is an I OUTSIDE of thoughts, and this I is identifying with thoughts?
No there is no I outside of the thoughts. The I is itself a thought and get attached with the work happening at the moment. As I am writing, there is this thought that I am writing making the belief of existence of "I" who is doing the work.
Where is this I that identifies with thoughts?
As I look, I do not see "I" as something separate. There is continuous flow of thoughts automatic and there is some gap between the thought and then a new thought altogether. I find the I as a thought which gets Identifies with thought like I am thinking.. rather thinking is happening automatically. Actually what I see is this "I" as being a story told to us from our childhood and this still going on. When we are born, we were given a name, we were told of what is good and what is bad.. what should we like and what should we hate. I see how this label creates the whole new personality, a mental image of somethings out of the original thing. We know tide, but is this tide separate from the ocean - "NO" it's the same water that ocean is made up of.. There are buildings all around.. this is this label which creates the distinction between residential building, School building and university building. So if a school building says I am a school building, there is no surprise because this is what it has been told to belief (just an analogy)
Can you observe this I here and now?
What is it in the very moment as you observe it?
What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?
No, I do not observe I here and now. I can't touch it, nor smell, see, hear. I as a label only found to be on mental plane. There is just this body doing it's function but the added topping here is the mental thought "I" that I am doing all this.

How the I as such is experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?
Yes, I is observed as a thought.

====
WHERE is this I that can get lost in thoughts?
I is itself a thought, a label.. a thought is getting lost in thought and when the gap comes between the thought the present moment gets reveled- and imaginary I is believes that it got lost in thought.

And what is it precisely that identifies with thoughts?
What is it that needs an identity?
What does identity stick to? What is it that it hooks onto?
What is the glue of identity made of?

I do not know if I am looking it clearly.. Might i need more pointers to see...
What I see is only continuous flow of thought, I is also a thought - a story that we have been told to believe. This created a separate personality, separate self that we have been believing throughout our life. This Believe created an Identity and the glue to this identity is this story of the self which is persevered as a separate self. Like I am an engineer, I am a doctor, I am writing, I am a genius.. this all are label of a separate self that we are believing, we are. But upon looking this all believes falls down.


Vikram

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vikramksinha
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby vikramksinha » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:15 pm

I missed to use quote to the last part of the question
And what is it precisely that identifies with thoughts?
What is it that needs an identity?
What does identity stick to? What is it that it hooks onto?
What is the glue of identity made of?

I do not know if I am looking it clearly.. Might i need more pointers to see...
What I see is only continuous flow of thought, I is also a thought - a story that we have been told to believe. This created a separate personality, separate self that we have been believing throughout our life. This Believe created an Identity and the glue to this identity is this story of the self which is persevered as a separate self. Like I am an engineer, I am a doctor, I am writing, I am a genius.. this all are label of a separate self that we are believing, we are. But upon looking this all believes falls down.


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