True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

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vikramksinha
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True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby vikramksinha » Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:08 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There is no real, inherent 'self' - With this phase I understand that what we think we are, we are not. This I, me is only mind made entity. There is no real me.

What are you looking for at LU?
Let me share you my recent experience from my life - I suddenly lost my father on one day, that was like a dark day for me. While on the funeral one thought creeps in me that one day I will also die, it was so strong that I literally everyday starts feeling about it and imagining about the process everyday and remembering everyone from family who have died and how many years they have lived all those stuffs, it was like a emotional shock for me and because of that I started getting Panic attacks and anxiety disorders. After this day my entire life took a u-turn. I understood the value of life and at the same time getting terrified of the feeling that one day it will end. This leads to me the search for peace and answers that why we have got this life though one day it will end, why are we working so hard and why are we running behind name, fame and money when one day this all will not matter. Why is there pain so much and very little happiness, why there is separation from loved one. My endeavor to find the answers led me to our Indian spiritual path. I left non-veg food. Started doing pranayama and meditation (little bit). I started seeing videos on vedanta and have been going through several some religious book from Hinduism called "Upanishads" . Our ancient saints also says, we are not what we think we are. We are that who never born and never dies. Went through the life of some of the enlighten persons and got inspired by them like what's that experience which sets us free, what's that state of mind that they never become sad on this continuously changing world and find true inner peace. I am behind that peace. I am behind that reality which they call as "self realization"
On that same endeavor while going through some questions and answers asked on quora on enlightenment - I found LU being mentioned as free community where we get help on this path. I started checking this website and downloaded the book "Gateless Gatecrashers" and got info about enlightenment quote app. The 1st quote itself in this app struck me hard - it's says there is no "you" and in a moment i felt like - what is that i consider me - is this body, mind or thought. I went on with the quotes and while inquiring on the way I felt a distant feeling that - There is no real me, it just in my head. In that moment i got relaxed and got peace. but it's didn't stick to me for more then 1 hrs. I started going through the quote and pointers mentioned on the it is really powerful and I really started looking and inquiring about the me stuff in my head which is worrying and fearing about the life. One day in the morning while doing pranayama - I got this again a distant feeling that "yes, this thing that i think which is me is actually not me. Actually there is no me. There is only life which is going on and this same life is inside everyone which is our real nature. I am not me and I am flowing inside everything. And in that moment i found a deep peace. but that also didn't stick more then 1 day. In the way sometimes I i am still getting this flashes that there is no me but this is not more then 2, 3 secs. I know that this reality is available 24/7 but still it do not stick with me.
At LU I am looking for help. Please show me the path to have a permanent experience.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect a guided conversation should be like speaking to a master who guide me to the light of reality from darkness of ignorance and illusion.
I expect that the guided conversation should lead me the that ultimate reality. I expect a true help and nothing more then that.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have got some experiences on seeking and inquiry since going through vedanta and upanishad.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Vivien
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby Vivien » Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:40 am

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I can assist you with your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily.
If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for to change?
What do you hope that should happen?
Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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vikramksinha
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby vikramksinha » Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:50 pm

Hi Vivien,
I really thank you for your time. Here are my responses to your question:

Can we agree on these?
yes, I agree to the terms. I will try my best to post daily but sometimes i get very overwhelm with the jobs at hand in the office so please excuse for those days.

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?
I am looking for liberation from suffering, pain that our mind put us through and to find that unflinching happiness that is within us. If i find that, the life will be effortless without the mind interfering with everything.

What are you hoping for to change?
I know that there will not change anything. The life will go as it is going right now but yes, I will be free from fear of suffering and pain of life because then I will know that there is no me to suffer.

What do you hope that should happen?
My hope to happen is to see the real truth and this will stick to me and be available to me without absence of a second.

Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?
Yes, i have flashes many times that what is happening right now and at this moment there is no me who is doing this. It's just happening. But then mind and thoughts takes it's domination. It feels like deep peace that i have never felt like.
That moment would be like a Eureka moment once i will completely with all my heart know that there is no me and it was never there and i was living a life of a lie.

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Vivien
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby Vivien » Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:56 am

Hi vikramksinha,

What name would you like me to call you?

I would like to ask you to learn to use the quotation function, so our conversation will be easier to read later for both of us.

So here is the link to a video how to quote:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
yes, I agree to the terms. I will try my best to post daily but sometimes i get very overwhelm with the jobs at hand in the office so please excuse for those days.
That’s all right. Just let me know when you can’t reply.

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.
I am looking for liberation from suffering, pain that our mind put us through and to find that unflinching happiness that is within us.
This is a HUGE expectation. This is a common one, since we all want to avoid suffering and want to feel good all the time. But seeing through the self is not about not having half of the human experience, not having any unpleasant emotions any more, and living in happiness ever after.

Happiness or peace is a state, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about seeing that emotions don’t belong to anything. They are free floating without being tied to or anchored to anything.

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.
The life will go as it is going right now but yes, I will be free from fear of suffering and pain of life because then I will know that there is no me to suffer.
This desire based on the belief that there is an I, an self, who is suffering now, and this self can somehow get rid of this suffering.

But what if there is no I, no self, who is suffering? What if suffering just happens, but it doesn’t happen to anyone?

This inquiry is not about self-improvement. It’s not about making life more comfortable to ME.
It’s about seeing that there is no me (literally) who is living live.
Life is just happening but to no one.
If i find that, the life will be effortless without the mind interfering with everything.
Life is already effortlessly happening. It just SEEMS otherwise. Since there is a belief that life is happening TO ME, and I suffer from it.

When there is suffering, it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added on narrative.

And the personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through. All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. The falling away of conditioning can last at the end of the organism.
My hope to happen is to see the real truth and this will stick to me and be available to me without absence of a second.
But there is no you! There is no you that truth could stick to.
Discovering truth is about seeing that there is no me, no self at all.
There is no such thing as ME + the second me.
Both of these me-s are just the same fictional illusion about a self, which simply doesn’t exists.
It’s just a concept, but not a reality.

Can you see that ALL of your expectations are based on a false belief that there is a self, an I, who suffers, and could get rid of suffering by getting rid of a second self?

It cannot know in advance how it will be. Why? Because all expectations come on behalf of a separate self, who is always in a search for peace, happiness, lack of fear and suffering. We simply cannot imagine it, since we cannot step outside form the separate self’s perspective. We can only imagine within the dream of me. The illusionary me is simply unable to imagine how it would be if it were discovered to be just a fictional character, and not a reality. It can only imagine what it wants for itself.
That moment would be like a Eureka moment once i will completely with all my heart know that there is no me and it was never there and i was living a life of a lie.
And what if it’s not a eureka moment? It’s different for everybody. For some it’s a distinct moment, but for many it’s a gradual process.
It feels like deep peace that i have never felt like.
Yes, under all beliefs there is peace. But it doesn’t mean that after seeing through the self, there will be a constant state of peace. Not at all, for the reasons I explained above.

Please ponder on my comments to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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vikramksinha
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby vikramksinha » Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:29 pm

What name would you like me to call you?
Hi Vivien, you can call me Vikram.
Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?
I have gone through your comments 2 times and i see my answer are on the opinion of my thoughts of what I have read through in books and heard on the videos. I see that the expectation is again on the belief of a self, me who will get something out of this entire process.

I am dropping all my expectation here and now and agree that I will go through the investigations without the imagination that what I would be like after finding that fictional character of I, me rather finding the truth and then know what it is.
Is there any resistance to any of it?
Do you feel ready to start the investigation?
I felt resistance the 1st time when I was going through your comments for getting falsified with all the expectation I had but when I went the through the comments 2nd time I realised that all the expectation are based on a false self and it can’t be known in advance how the seeing through the self would feel like.

I am ready for the investigation. Let’s do it.

Best wishes.
Vikram

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Vivien
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby Vivien » Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:53 am

Hi Vikram,
I have gone through your comments 2 times and i see my answer are on the opinion of my thoughts of what I have read through in books and heard on the videos. I see that the expectation is again on the belief of a self, me who will get something out of this entire process.
It’s very good that you can see this :)

Please investigate the followings for a whole day.

As you go about your everyday life, how does the self/I/me show up?

What is it like? What is it made of? Does it have a shape or a color? How big it is? And where is its exact location?

What does the word I actually point to? If you take a finger (literally) and land it on I, where does it land?

Can you see, smell, hear, taste, touch the I? Try it, with each sense.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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vikramksinha
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby vikramksinha » Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:28 am

As you go about your everyday life, how does the self/I/me show up?

What is it like? What is it made of? Does it have a shape or a color? How big it is? And where is its exact location?

What does the word I actually point to? If you take a finger (literally) and land it on I, where does it land?

Can you see, smell, hear, taste, touch the I? Try it, with each sense.
Hi Vivien, I will write my answers tomorrow.

Vikram

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vikramksinha
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby vikramksinha » Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:41 pm

Hi Vivien, here are my answers
As you go about your everyday life, how does the self/I/me show up?
As I looked entire day the self/I/ me showed up like every time like when i was eating, bathing, looking at the mirror, talking to my friends and family this I was every time with me.Though it was more dominant when i got angry because i didn't like someone's decision against my wish.
What is it like? What is it made of? Does it have a shape or a color? How big it is? And where is its exact location?
It is like a inherent thing associated with the body, mind and everything that is seen as me. I am not sure what it is made up of, but i notice that this whole presence is me. This me is my body, my mind, thoughts and emotions. This whole package makes me/I. when i look at the mirror i see that this me has the shape and color of this body, and thinks that it will look good in such and such clothing pair, shoes etc. I do not know how big it is but as i investigated - physically this I, me is of size of my body but on mental plane it's like this me wants to be as much big as everybody should appreciate me, look to/for me, value me and what is lacking to make me more valuable, what skill set I should have that I will get a very high paying job on my next job search etc. I could not locate the exact location of the I since this me is made up of everything that is associate with my existence like my body, mind and thoughts.

What does the word I actually point to? If you take a finger (literally) and land it on I, where does it land?
If i take the finger up and land on me, it's getting land on my chest but ofcourse I see that this me is not only this physical body because i find I, me presence inside my body as well.

Can you see, smell, hear, taste, touch the I? Try it, with each sense.
See -- umm, yes but only this body and images that I create inside my mind but that image is not me, who creates the image is me
Smell -- No, apart from this body's smell.
hear -- yes i can hear me when i speak and even judge if i pronounced some words incorrectly or whether my voice was on sweeter tone or i spoke with a harsh voice. Also, right now when i am writing these lines, I can hear these line getting repeated inside my mind and I am hearing it.
taste -- No
touch -- yes, I can touch the body and can feel it.

Vikram

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Vivien
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby Vivien » Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:37 am

Hi vikramksinha,

So you believe that I = body? Then why do you say: MY body?
Either you ARE the body, or you HAVE a body. Which one?


Please don’t just think about it, but investigate deeply in experience.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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vikramksinha
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby vikramksinha » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:10 am

So you believe that I = body? Then why do you say: MY body?
Either you ARE the body, or you HAVE a body. Which one?
hmm, interesting. I investigated further, I ask myself "am i this body" ? Do i exist if my hand/feet cut off.. The answer is yes, I do exist even after my hands cut off. I do not get cut with my body cut off.. I do not shred with my falling hair because I am the knower who knows what is happening. If I am this body then I could not tell because to know something you have to a be a second person, a subject who knows about the object. Subject contently could not tell anything about the subject.. Do you follow me? So this infer that, the I is the subject who knows about the object = body

So certainly "I am not this body" but this is "my body" and I am something inside this body but i do not know what is that.

But why this feels so real that this body is me and whatever happening to this body is happening to me.

I am confused with this. What is this..? the reality is different then the feelings and believes that we have.. why it is like that? and why are we trapped so much? Does that means we should not trust our instinctive feeling, is that?

Please help me. This all feels like Matrix movie.

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Vivien
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:22 am

Hi vikramksinha,
mm, interesting. I investigated further, I ask myself "am i this body" ? Do i exist if my hand/feet cut off.. The answer is yes, I do exist even after my hands cut off. I do not get cut with my body cut off.. I do not shred with my falling hair because I am the knower who knows what is happening. If I am this body then I could not tell because to know something you have to a be a second person, a subject who knows about the object. Subject contently could not tell anything about the subject.. Do you follow me? So this infer that, the I is the subject who knows about the object = body
This is true conventionally speaking, but the problem is that this is a logical conclusion, something you thought through. But you cannot see through the self by thinking. It needs to be seen experientially.
I am confused with this. What is this..? the reality is different then the feelings and believes that we have.. why it is like that? and why are we trapped so much? Does that means we should not trust our instinctive feeling, is that?
I understand your frustration, but these questions are conceptual, and can be answered on the conceptual level. Which is not helpful in this inquiry.
So certainly "I am not this body" but this is "my body" and I am something inside this body but i do not know what is that.
But why this feels so real that this body is me and whatever happening to this body is happening to me.
Yes, exactly. With the following questions please try to ignore your thoughts and rather focus on what is here in this very moment, in your immediate experience.

We often say ‘MY body’ – so what is it that owns the body?
And how do you know that the body is owned?
What is it that claims ‘MY body’?

You have clothes, right? But what is owning them?
What is that makes the clothes “mine”?
What is that claims the clothes to be “MY clothes”?
Does the seeming ‘voice in the head’, the commentator, owns the clothes?
Do thoughts own the clothes?
Does the thought ‘mine’ owns the clothes?
Does word/thought Vikram owns the clothes?
Does the label on clothes own the clothes?

Does the label ‘my’ owns the body?
Does the label/word/thought Vikram owns the body?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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vikramksinha
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby vikramksinha » Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:48 am

We often say ‘MY body’ – so what is it that owns the body?
And how do you know that the body is owned?
What is it that claims ‘MY body’?

You have clothes, right? But what is owning them?
What is that makes the clothes “mine”?
What is that claims the clothes to be “MY clothes”?
Does the seeming ‘voice in the head’, the commentator, owns the clothes?
Do thoughts own the clothes?
Does the thought ‘mine’ owns the clothes?
Does word/thought Vikram owns the clothes?
Does the label on clothes own the clothes?

Does the label ‘my’ owns the body?
Does the label/word/thought Vikram owns the body?

Hi Vivien,

Yes, you are correct, it was so so obvious. How could I not look it before. I see there is this body, mind in the body and there is this thought in the mind "MY" which labels everything as mine and start owning them, but in reality body or anything is not owned by anybody, it was and it is free/independent. It's only in the thought - I am owning them.

What the heck.. what is this illusion. Mind itself think about everything as mine and itself gets worry about it's well being. And i am surprised how this all things felt so real but it isn't.



Vikram

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Vivien
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby Vivien » Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:58 am

Hi Vikram,

You did a nice investigation. But you are talking as if there were an actual REAL mind in reality.
I see there is this body, mind in the body and there is this thought in the mind "MY"
Do you believe that there is an actual real mind inside the body? And in that mind, there the word ‘my’ is inside this mind?

How do you know all of this? Do you know this from experience, or you learned this from others, in school, or form society?

Can you observe a ‘mind’ here and now?

What is it in the very moment as you observe it?
What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?

How ‘mind’ as such is experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?

Where is this mind? Does it exist outside of thought imagination?
Mind itself think about everything
Is there an actual mind that is thinking? A mind that is producing thoughts?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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vikramksinha
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby vikramksinha » Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:22 pm

i Vivien,

Here are my observations:
Can you observe a ‘mind’ here and now?

What is it in the very moment as you observe it?
What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?

How ‘mind’ as such is experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?

When I look here and now, I see only brain i do not see any mind in any form. But there is this chatter inside the brain i think that is called mind which always direct what to do and what not to do, what to like and what to hate.. aahhh.. Mind is like a thought organ but in reality it is not present anywhere in the body. On looking it feels like a cloud inside the head.

How do you know all of this? Do you know this from experience, or you learned this from others, in school, or form society?

hmm, I only have experience of the chatter inside the brain and I think everyone have same experience and growing up in the society I learnt it from school as well as from society that we have a mind inside the body who do this chatter, if it's sad, we are sad. If mind is happy, we are happy all these. We even use phrases like:

Keep in mind..
Control your mind.. blah blah

But in reality there is no mind, it's just a thought of having a mind. It's a fake organ that thought have created.
Do you believe that there is an actual real mind inside the body? And in that mind, there the word ‘my’ is inside this mind?
Where is this mind? Does it exist outside of thought imagination?
Hmm, now i see that "MY" is just a thought in the brain because there is no mind, actually mind is also a thought.. what the heck thought inside a thought.. actually no there is only thought but no mind. It's a label that ignorance have given to having a mind which do the thinking and produces thought.

Is there an actual mind that is thinking? A mind that is producing thoughts?
No of course not. There no mind who is doing thinking. The brain is doing thinking, and it's brain which produces thoughts because there is no existence of the mind in the body. It's just a fake organ or we can say a learnt fact from the society and school but not a tested fact. The thinking faculty of the brain has been given a name/Label as mind by the the language because we need some word to identify something. That's who brain works

Vikram

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Vivien
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Re: True knowledge is the one which liberates us.

Postby Vivien » Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:24 am

Hi Vikram,
When I look here and now, I see only brain
Are you 100% sure that you see a brain? Do you literally see your brain?
Or you just IMAGINE a brain?

Is imagination an actual SEEING, or an imagination is just an imagination?

What is the difference between seeing and imagining?

But there is this chatter inside the brain
HOW do you know that there is a ‘chatter inside the brain’?
Have you ever SEEN your brain?

Can you actually SEE chatter inside the brain, or you can only IMAGINE it?

On looking it feels like a cloud inside the head.
Is the ‘mind as a cloud inside the head’ an ACTUAL REAL FEELING?
Or this is just another IMAGINATION?
hmm, I only have experience of the chatter inside the brain
Are you 100% sure that you EXPERIENCE ‘the chatter inside the brain’? How?

Is imagination = experience?

What is the difference between imagination and experience?

No of course not. There no mind who is doing thinking. The brain is doing thinking,
Dear Vikram, the thing is that you are not looking. You are imagining, and then you think about your own imagination.
First you believed that a mind is thinking, but not you replaced it with another belief, the brain is thinking.

Have you EVER seen a brain thinking? EVER?
Or only you can IMAGINE a brain thinking?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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