Journey to here and now

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RickT
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby RickT » Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:50 pm

Is it clear that what we are doing here is to question the validity of your thoughts? If thoughts actually telling the truth by comparing them to reality (experience)?
Are no thoughts valid? I understand and can completely accept thoughts paint experience in their likeness. That good and bad are 2 sides of the same coin and it's only your perception that makes a thing seem good or bad but what about the thoughts that allow creating to happen?

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Vivien
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby Vivien » Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:54 am

Hi Rick,
So we are the awareness of the experience not the experience itself.
This is a speculation.
It’s coming from thinking which is utterly useless.
You did not look where those pointers pointing to.
Also, you missed two of them.

Please go back, look with EACH of the questions, and reply to them one by one.
You have to work for this. Nobody will be able to the inquiry instead of you. Only you.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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RickT
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby RickT » Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:15 am

Help me out here. How do you inquire without thinking? I'm utterly lost

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RickT
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby RickT » Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:46 am

And I am putting in work. I sit and meditate on these questions for an hour a day and run them through my mind at various intervals during the day but clearly this isn't how to enquire. A little guidance would be helpful thank you

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Vivien
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby Vivien » Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:02 am

Hi Rick,
A little guidance would be helpful thank you
Let’s start with these questions. First, we have to be clear on this. I know that it’s not clear to you how to look, this is exactly why I asked these questions.

Is it clear that what we are doing here is to question the validity of your thoughts? If thoughts actually telling the truth by comparing them to reality (experience)?

What is the difference between thinking and experiencing?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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RickT
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby RickT » Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:17 pm

If thoughts actually telling the truth by comparing them to reality (experience)?
No thoughts bare no resemblance to the truth. My thoughts about reality are pointless. Reality is what it is, no matter what I think about it.
What is the difference between thinking and experiencing?
Thinking is mind creating a narrative about events. Experiences are events that stimulate your senses

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Vivien
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby Vivien » Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:42 am

Hi Rick,
Thinking is mind creating a narrative about events. Experiences are events that stimulate your senses
Let’s be more experiential about this.

Do you have a phone? Please check for it now and tell me how you checked to find its existence. Describe it in detail via all of the senses...

What does it look like? how does it feel in the hand? what about the surface?
How do you know that you have found it?
How do you know that you’ve found your phone and not something else?
How do you ‘know’ that your phone exists?


Please reply to each questions one-by-one.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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RickT
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby RickT » Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:52 am

What does it look like?
It's rectangular. Shiny. Black. Thin. Has buttons up the side.
how does it feel in the hand? 
It has some weight to it. It's smooth
what about the surface?
The surface is smooth and flat. It emits light when being used.
How do you know that you have found it?
I can see it.
How do you know that you’ve found your phone and not something else?
Because it looks like my phone. Past interactions with the phone have taught me what to expect my phone to be like.
How do you ‘know’ that your phone exists?
My senses define it's physical attributes and my mind cross references the past using of the phone to the present.

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Vivien
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby Vivien » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:14 am

Hi Rick,

Please take your phone into your hands.

Can we say that you know that your phone exists and not just an imagination, because you can experience it by your 5 senses?

Does your phone stop existing when you stop thinking about it?

Does the experience of the phone in your hands stop when there are no thoughts about it?


These questions might seem very simplistic and basic, so it’s easy to make a quick intellectual conclusion about them. But please resist the temptation to make a quick conclusion, and really investigate the questions above.

Seeing clearly the difference between reality (experience) and fiction (thoughts) are essential. This is the foundation of this inquiry.
My senses define it's physical attributes and my mind cross references the past using of the phone to the present.
Does this ‘cross reference’ really necessary to know that the thing in your hands called ‘phone’ exists?

Isn’t the proof of the existence of your phone is the EXPERIENCE of it (with the 5 senses)?

And does this mind activity a reliable information? Isn’t all of these just conceptual thoughts, and not the tangible reality?

Do you see that this is exactly the distinction we are doing here? Not relying on thoughts (like cross referencing) but relying on the facts of experience, here now, and not in the made-up conceptual thought-field?


Please reply to these questions also one-by-one. Please do this with all the questions from now on.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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RickT
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby RickT » Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:17 am

Can we say that you know that your phone exists and not just an imagination, because you can experience it by your 5 senses?
Yes
Does your phone stop existing when you stop thinking about it?
No or it wouldn't ring
Does the experience of the phone in your hands stop when there are no thoughts about it?
Yes
Does this ‘cross reference’ really necessary to know that the thing in your hands called ‘phone’ exists?
I'm not sure. I just presumed it was done in micro seconds on a subconscious level
Isn’t the proof of the existence of your phone is the EXPERIENCE of it (with the 5 senses)?
Yes
And does this mind activity a reliable information? Isn’t all of these just conceptual thoughts, and not the tangible reality?
The mind doesn't give reliable information. Tangible reality is the experience
Do you see that this is exactly the distinction we are doing here? Not relying on thoughts (like cross referencing) but relying on the facts of experience, here now, and not in the made-up conceptual thought-field?
My thoughts on things bares no relation to it. It is what it is regardless of my thoughts on it

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Vivien
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:22 am

Hi Rick,
V: Does the experience of the phone in your hands stop when there are no thoughts about it?
R: Yes
I’m wondering if you misread the question.

Are you saying that while the phone is in your hands, you can FEEL it and SEE it, if you stop thinking about it, then the experience of the phone stops? The phone disappears? It stops existing?

Here is another exercise for you.

Imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine its shape, size, weight, temperature, color. Now keep it there, close your eyes, and feel the imaginary spoon.

Then, open your eyes:
Is there a spoon here, in real life?
So how did you see that there is no spoon?
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or it never existed?


Now go and get a spoon from the kitchen and hold it in the same way that you imagined it.
Feel the spoon’s form, its size, its weight, its temperature. Close your eyes and feel the spoon for a while.
Now open your eyes ... is there a spoon here, in real life?
Are a visual thought of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?
How does imagining and experiencing differ?


Please repeat this exercise several times. Also experiment with different objects.
Let me know what you find.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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RickT
Posts: 22
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby RickT » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:44 am

Are you saying that while the phone is in your hands, you can FEEL it and SEE it, if you stop thinking about it, then the experience of the phone stops? The phone disappears? It stops existing?
No I meant if I'm not holding the phone and I'm not thinking about it, the experience of the phone stops

I
magine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine its shape, size, weight, temperature, color. Now keep it there, close your eyes, and feel the imaginary spoon.
Then, open your eyes:
Is there a spoon here, in real life?
So how did you see that there is no spoon?
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or it never existed?
Honestly I'm not very good at imagining. I could pretend and visualise somewhat but the objects were never really there for me.

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Journey to here and now

Postby Vivien » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:57 am

Hi Rick,
Honestly I'm not very good at imagining. I could pretend and visualise somewhat but the objects were never really there for me.
OK, I understand that, but the task isn’t merely to visualize it.

You’ve missed the most important part of the exercise, the second part.

Please read the whole exercise very carefully, and see what is the point of it? Why we are doing this?

Please go back and do it again.

If it’s difficult to visualize something, then maybe it’s easier to imagine the taste of something.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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RickT
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:23 am

Re: Journey to here and now

Postby RickT » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:50 am

How does imagining and experiencing differ?

Please repeat this exercise several times. Also experiment with different objects.
Let me know what you find.
Imagining and experiencing differ greatly, imagining always feels a bit fake whilst experiencing the objects is very tangible. All your senses are working at once to make the objects real. When you're thinking, you have to really concentrate but if you actually have the objects not so.

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Journey to here and now

Postby Vivien » Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:19 am

Hi Rick,
Imagining and experiencing differ greatly, imagining always feels a bit fake whilst experiencing the objects is very tangible. All your senses are working at once to make the objects real. When you're thinking, you have to really concentrate but if you actually have the objects not so.
This reply is not really describing the actual difference between imagination and thinking. The difference is not about concentration. So we have to dig deeper.

The whole point of this investigation to see what is there in experience (what is left) when all thoughts about what is happening is ignored.

The whole illusion of the self is being created mainly by thoughts.

So what we are doing here is to compare our BELIEFS ( = THOUGHTS) about how things are to how things ACTUALLY ARE (EXPERIENTIALLY).

So we are comparing thoughts (assumptions, theories, imagination) to experience (reality).

Now, please take an object into your hands, you can start with a spoon, and later experiment with other objects.

In what ways the spoon can be experienced?
How do you know that the spoon is experienced and not imagined?
How do you know that the spoon is real?


Now take a book into your hands.

How is the book experienced?
How do you know that the box is real and exists?


Experiments with several different object throughout the day.
After, please tell me in your own words, what is the difference between experience and imagination?

And how do you know that a cup is real?
How do you know that the ‘tooth fairy’ isn’t real?

And what is the difference between imagination and thought?


If you want to prove if something really exists (and not just a fiction), like proving there is such thing as chair, what characteristics you have to look for? How would you prove that chairs exist?


These exercises might seem very simplistic, but that's the whole point. Please look very carefully regardless of the simplicity.

Please reply to each question one-by-one.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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