Journey to here and now

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RickT
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby RickT » Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:08 am

In what ways the spoon can be experienced?
I can see the spoon. It's colours vary from the other things around it. It reflects lights. I can touch the spoon and there is resistance to my hand indicating boundaries between my hand and the spoon. The spoon also has weight which also presses against my skin. It has a different temperature to me, I can feel this variation too.
How do you know that the spoon is experienced and not imagined?
I'm trusting in the perceptions of the spoon that I'm experiencing. I could be hallucinating I've had moment's of hallucination before whilst under the influence but I've realised at the time it wasn't real. On this occasion there's a knowing that it isn't hallucination.
How do you know that the spoon is real?
Again I'm trusting my perceptions of the spoon through my senses.
How is the book experienced?
Through the senses. Sight and touch.
How do you know that the box is real and exists?
Mainly through it's physical resistance against other physicality. I can see it differentiated to other things. I can touch it and my hand doesn't merge with it. Therefore my senses tell me, it's separate from me and so real and exists.
After, please tell me in your own words, what is the difference between experience and imagination?
Experience means my senses interact and resist the objects. In imagination I can do what I like to the objects just by imagining it. Physical laws don't exist.
And how do you know that a cup is real?
Because it interacts with me through the laws of physics
How do you know that the ‘tooth fairy’ isn’t real?
I have never experienced the tooth fairy. I don't know that it isn't real. I only know that I've not experienced it and that the laws of physics that I've been taught make it unlikely from my perspective to be real.
And what is the difference between imagination and thought?
Imagination is the same as thought but without the implied physical boundaries and laws.
If you want to prove if something really exists (and not just a fiction), like proving there is such thing as chair, what characteristics you have to look for? How would you prove that chairs exist?
I would use my senses to determine it's existence. Can I see it. Can i touch it. Can I move it. Can I sit on it and not fall to the floor. If I drag it, does it make a noise.

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Journey to here and now

Postby Vivien » Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:16 am

Hi Rick,

Thank you for your responses. Some of your descriptions are coming from clearly describing experience, but some are conceptualization.
Like here:
V: And how do you know that a cup is real?
R: Because it interacts with me through the laws of physics
This reply is coming from thinking, and from describe the experience as it is.

Do you see that ‘law of physics’ is not experience? It’s just a conceptual, thought-framework?
Imagination is the same as thought but without the implied physical boundaries and laws.
The first part ‘imagination is the same as thought’ is coming from looking.
But the second part, is coming from thinking ‘implied boundaries and laws’.


Can you see that a verbal thought is an auditory imagination of the sound of words, while a visual thought is a pictorial or visual thought of colors?

Do you see that the only difference that with thought it’s auditory imagination, and with mental images it’s a visual imagination?

That both are just thoughts = imagination, they are just the imagination or thought of a different sense (auditory vs visual?
V: If you want to prove if something really exists (and not just a fiction), like proving there is such thing as chair, what characteristics you have to look for? How would you prove that chairs exist?
R: I would use my senses to determine it's existence. Can I see it. Can i touch it. Can I move it. Can I sit on it and not fall to the floor. If I drag it, does it make a noise.
But this one, is describe experience.

Do you see clearly that experience = colours, sounds, tastes, smells, sensations?
And everything else, is just concepts… trying to describe or represent experience, but not experience itself?
V: How do you know that the spoon is experienced and not imagined?
R: I'm trusting in the perceptions of the spoon that I'm experiencing. I could be hallucinating I've had moment's of hallucination before whilst under the influence but I've realised at the time it wasn't real. On this occasion there's a knowing that it isn't hallucination.
Do you see that here you didn’t investigate the questions in experience /reality, rather you went to thought, to ideas, concepts, beliefs, and you just thought it through, just speculated on it?
V: After, please tell me in your own words, what is the difference between experience and imagination?
R: Experience means my senses interact and resist the objects. In imagination I can do what I like to the objects just by imagining it. Physical laws don't exist.
This one is a mixture of both. So you looked at experience directly, but then you quickly jumped back to thinking and to your already existing INTELLECTUAL KNOWLEDGE about things.

Do you see that experiencing a cup has nothing to do with what we intellectual know about a cup, physics, resistance, physical laws, interaction, etc.?

Do you see that these are ALL just CONCEPTS, and they are in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION than the raw sensation of touching a cup (experience itself)?


Take the cup into your hands again. Close your eyes, and investigate:

Does the raw sensation itself suggest or communicate at any way about ‘interaction’, ‘resistance’, ‘physical laws’?
What is it that is giving this information?

With closed eyes, does the raw sensation itself ‘imply any boundaries’ at all?

Isn’t the CONCEPT of boundary coming from a visual thought of a hand holding the cup and verbal thoughts labelling this mental image as ‘boundary’?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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RickT
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby RickT » Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:42 am

Do you see that ‘law of physics’ is not experience? It’s just a conceptual, thought-framework?
Yes that's true.
Can you see that a verbal thought is an auditory imagination of the sound of words, while a visual thought is a pictorial or visual thought of colors?

Do you see that the only difference that with thought it’s auditory imagination, and with mental images it’s a visual imagination?

That both are just thoughts = imagination, they are just the imagination or thought of a different sense (auditory vs visual?
This is brilliant I'd never seen it this way before but now you've said it, it's obvious.
Do you see clearly that experience = colours, sounds, tastes, smells, sensations?
And everything else, is just concepts… trying to describe or represent experience, but not experience itself?
Yes, I think i was trying to show I'd given enquiry to it and ended up padding it out with concepts instead of sticking to experience. We don't need to conceptualise experience, it just is.
Does the raw sensation itself suggest or communicate at any way about ‘interaction’, ‘resistance’, ‘physical laws’?
What is it that is giving this information?
I'm just speculating and using what I've already been taught to try and describe experience.
With closed eyes, does the raw sensation itself ‘imply any boundaries’ at all?
Isn’t the CONCEPT of boundary coming from a visual thought of a hand holding the cup and verbal thoughts labelling this mental image as ‘boundary’?
It's odd, if as I sit with the cup in my hands there are definitely moments when there is just the cup and a hand holding it, then my thoughts jump in and say but you are holding the cup and that's because of resistance and boundaries.

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Vivien
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby Vivien » Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:33 am

Hi Rick,
Does the raw sensation itself suggest or communicate at any way about ‘interaction’, ‘resistance’, ‘physical laws’?
What is it that is giving this information?
With closed eyes, does the raw sensation itself ‘imply any boundaries’ at all?
R: I'm just speculating and using what I've already been taught to try and describe experience.
It’s good that you can see this, but I’m not sure that you actually looked with these questions.

I never just give a question to get an information from you. All the questions are pointers for you where to look.
Please LOOK with every single question I give you.

So please go back to these questions and REALLY investigate them. Again and again and again.

Also, these questions are not meant to look at them once or twice, and then write a reply. No. These are meant to looked at for a whole day 50-100 times.

If you don’t look repeatedly, then this cannot sink in deeply, and just stays on the level of intellectual understanding.

So please go back to these 3 question, and look at them one by one. Spend a whole day looking at them repeatedly. Even if the answer seems to be clear, still look more.

Can you see how important these repeated lookings are?

Also, please don’t bulk-reply. It’s very easy to miss important pointers with bulk-replying.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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RickT
Posts: 22
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby RickT » Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:20 am

Does the raw sensation itself suggest or communicate at any way about ‘interaction’, ‘resistance’, ‘physical laws’?
What is it that is giving this information?
I've done this a 1000 times now and No, there is just the experience of sensations. At best all I can say for sure is I'm aware of holding something.
With closed eyes, does the raw sensation itself ‘imply any boundaries’ at all?
With my eyes closed all i can say is I'm holding something. Oftentimes it doesn't even feel like I'm holding anything anymore just space.
Isn’t the CONCEPT of boundary coming from a visual thought of a hand holding the cup and verbal thoughts labelling this mental image as ‘boundary’?
It's all mental labels and concepts.

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Journey to here and now

Postby Vivien » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:36 am

Hi Rick,

You did a nice investigation.

Look around the room you are in and notice what is real. Notice things, notice looking around the room.
What is here now?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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RickT
Posts: 22
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby RickT » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:40 pm

What is here now?
All that is here is my awareness. I'm aware that stimulations are occurring and I'm aware that I'm aware of them through my awareness. Words don't work to explain this adequately hahaha

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Journey to here and now

Postby Vivien » Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:12 am

Hi Rick,
All that is here is my awareness. I'm aware that stimulations are occurring and I'm aware that I'm aware of them through my awareness. Words don't work to explain this adequately hahaha
So are you saying that in this very moment there is NO experience? That there are no colors, shapes, sounds, tastes, smells, sensations and thoughts, that there is ONLY YOUR awareness?

So nothing exists, ONLY YOUR awareness? Is this so?

Or rather it’s a spiritual concept you’ve learned from various teachers, as a second-hand information?

Show me this awareness. How is this ‘awareness’ is perceived exactly?
As a thought? A sensation? An imagination?

And what makes this seeming ‘awareness’ into MY awareness?

When you are having dinner, would you say that awareness is eating?


Remember, that my question was: What is real in this very moment, here now?
It’s very important that you don’t think about the answer, that you don’t rely on any intellectual knowledge you’ve learned from others, and you rely on your own IMMEDIATE EXPERIENCE.

So, if you put aside ALL thoughts, ALL knowledge, then what is real in this very moment?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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RickT
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:23 am

Re: Journey to here and now

Postby RickT » Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:35 am

So are you saying that in this very moment there is NO experience? That there are no colors, shapes, sounds, tastes, smells, sensations and thoughts, that there is ONLY YOUR awareness?
I didn't say that. I meant there are sensations. Colours, shapes, sounds tastes, smells, thoughts and i am aware of them, but as they are ever changing they can't be considered "real" only my awareness of the sensations/experience/stimulation is real and you asked what is real.
So nothing exists, ONLY YOUR awareness? Is this so?
I think we've got lost in translation. I never said nothing exists and I never said it was "my" awareness.
Or rather it’s a spiritual concept you’ve learned from various teachers, as a second-hand information?
I genuinely answered from experience. It's hard to put into words without using thought. So all I can say is I'm aware of experiences. If I try to explain those experience I go back to learnt past concepts about hard, soft, colours, dimensions, etc
Show me this awareness. How is this ‘awareness’ is perceived exactly?
As a thought? A sensation? An imagination?
It can't be shown but we are aware aren't we?
And what makes this seeming ‘awareness’ into MY awareness?
I didn't say it was mine. It's just awareness. I've no other way to describe it. But you asked me to do inquiry. I've inquired and my experience shows that I'm aware of experiences. I'm not the experiences. I don't know I'm even the awareness but I have knowledge of being aware of experiences.
When you are having dinner, would you say that awareness is eating?
No my body is eating but my body became aware of the experience of hunger.
Remember, that my question was: What is real in this very moment, here now?
It’s very important that you don’t think about the answer, that you don’t rely on any intellectual knowledge you’ve learned from others, and you rely on your own IMMEDIATE EXPERIENCE.
This is what I've tried to do. What is real is what I'm experiencing in that very moment. Not my thoughts about it or how I imagined it may be. Just the experience in it's raw form.
So, if you put aside ALL thoughts, ALL knowledge, then what is real in this very moment?
You'll probably say it's all wrong but I've answered this to the best of my ability without thought already. How does one even write the words to communicate without referring to previous knowledge and past experience.

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Vivien
Posts: 7049
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Location: Australia

Re: Journey to here and now

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:00 am

Hi Rick,

You might have resistance to this post, since it’s questions and challenges the beliefs you held. But please read it very carefully several times, and spend LOTS of time investigating this.

You have some blind spots you are not seeing, and I’m pointing those out to you.
You'll probably say it's all wrong but I've answered this to the best of my ability without thought already. How does one even write the words to communicate without referring to previous knowledge and past experience.
I believe you that you are trying to answer things to the best of your ability, I don’t doubt that. But my job is to point out for you when you are not actually looking at your experience, but only your THOUGHT INTERPRETATION of experience. And you are not seeing that you are doing this.
It’s not a langue or communication problem. You are not seeing something very important.
I never said nothing exists and I never said it was "my" awareness.
You’ve never said that MY awareness? You are repeatedly saying that. You said it in your previous post, and it this one too.
This is form your previous post:
All that is here is MY awareness. I'm aware that stimulations are occurring and I'm aware that I'm aware of them through MY awareness. Words don't work to explain this adequately hahaha
And this is from your latest post:
Colours, shapes, sounds tastes, smells, thoughts and i am aware of them, but as they are ever changing they can't be considered "real" only MY awareness of the sensations/experience/stimulation is real and you asked what is real.
You are clearly believing that there is an I + awareness, and the I owns awareness, it’s mine.

Is it clear to you that what we are investigation here is whether there is an I at all?
Is it clear that what we are investigating if there is a subject of experience, if there is an experiencer or knower or aware-er at all?

It can't be shown but we are aware aren't we?
What we? It seems that you are not understanding intellectually that what we are investigating here.
There is no we.
There is no I.
There is NO subject of experience.
There is nothing separate in the background being aware and waiting for things to be aware of.
There is NO separate I which could be aware.
There is NO we which could be aware.
The knowing of experience is happening, but there is NO knower, NO aware-er. NO I that is aware.
Please read this above comment many times.
Do you understand it intellectually?
Colours, shapes, sounds tastes, smells, thoughts and i am aware of them, but as they are ever changing they can't be considered "real" only my awareness of the sensations/experience/stimulation is real and you asked what is real.
Do you think that this reply is coming from looking at experience directly?
Or rather it’s an intellectual interpretation of experience, with a certain intellectual conclusion?


What makes you think that experience cannot be real, just because it’s changing?
How do you come up with this idea?


The reason why we did several exercises to look at experience, to see clearly that the ONLY REAL thing is EXPERIENCE itself. Everything else is just a fictional thought-fluff.

You are deeming the only real existing thing (experience) to be unreal, and believing the unreal (seeming knower, awareness, experiencer) to be something real.

The reality is the opposite. What you are talking about IS THE ILLUSION itself.
So all I can say is I'm aware of experiences.
You might thing that you are describing experience, but you are not.

Where is this subject (I) that is aware of experience? Where?
V: Show me this awareness. How is this ‘awareness’ is perceived exactly?
As a thought? A sensation? An imagination?
R: It can't be shown but we are aware aren't we?
So awareness cannot be experienced in any way, and yet you still think that there is awareness, and I AM IT, or it is mine, MY awareness, as you said it several times.
I didn't say it was mine. It's just awareness. I've no other way to describe it. But you asked me to do inquiry.
You are contradicting yourself, since you are talking about your beliefs and not about experience. But you are not seeing it, so you assume that there is a communication problem here. But there isn’t.
I've inquired and my experience shows that I'm aware of experiences.
No dear Rick, experience doesn’t show that. Experience doesn’t show an I that is aware of experience.
You are saying that there is an experiencer (which is YOU), and this experiencer is aware of or experiencing experience. But this is the illusion itself.

Where is this experiencer?
Where is the ONE that is aware of experience?
Is it in the body? Is it in the head?

I'm not the experiences. I don't know I'm even the awareness
It’s not about whether you are the experience.
It’s about whether there is a you to be an experience or awareness at all.

The question is NOT about WHAT I AM… The question is whether there is an I AT ALL.

Do you see that this is your stumbling block? That you are trying to figure out what you are, instead of investigating if there is an I at all?
I have knowledge of being aware of experiences.
Where is this I which has knowledge? Does this I even exist, other than the thought ‘I’?
No my body is eating but my body became aware of the experience of hunger.
So far you said that YOU are aware. But now you are saying that the body is aware.

HOW do you know that the body is aware?

So now you are saying that YOU HAVE a body, and the body is aware?
So not awareness is aware, not even ‘I am aware’, but the body, which you own?

This is what I've tried to do. What is real is what I'm experiencing in that very moment. Not my thoughts about it or how I imagined it may be. Just the experience in it's raw form.
Exactly.
So how you come about the idea that experience is not real, because it’s changing?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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