Journey to here and now

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RickT
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Journey to here and now

Postby RickT » Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:28 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand it to mean that who I think I am is actually just a bunch of programming either installed by my environment or created by my mind in response to my judgement of occurrences that have happened to me.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking to understand reality in its truest form. I've got some meditative experiences and I often feel energy very strongly, even emotionally within me but is that who I am or is that just my imagination. I guess I'd like a guide who is more knowledgeable than me to help realise my truth. I'm done with letting my ego run my life. Guidance and accountability seem like a good idea.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope to be led to a place of realisation. At the moment I'm meditating daily. Studying daily but I'm alone in this aspect of my life. I'm a kitchen and bathroom fitter, going down a spiritual path was never my intention but the benefits to my peace of mind have been such that I'm not prepared to give it up but I have no one in my life with which to discuss this with, so a guide may be the solution

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been mediating and enquiring for about 2 years now. I practice taekwondo which led me to Buddhism which got me into trying to meditate. The last year has been a steep improvement in my ability to connect with what I can only describe as source but I don't know where to take it from here.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Vivien
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:06 am

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I can assist you with your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily.
If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for to change?
What do you hope that should happen?
Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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RickT
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby RickT » Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:09 am

Hi, yes we can agree on that.
I'm looking to know my true self.
I feel if I knew our true nature I could always be 100% sure I'm interacting with the world from a place of authenticity not ego driven.
I want to change my judgements on how I think things should be and only perceive reality as it is.
I have many self esteem issues relating to programming from my past. I know intellectually that's what they are and have worked on them but I'd like not to relate to them at all. I guess I'd like to leave the past in the past and live in the now comfortably.
I feel I'd be more at ease, able to be kind always, sometimes not often and not terribly but I respond angrily to situations. I don't want that aspect of emotion in my life. I feel it serves no purpose and only ever makes situations worse. So I'm thinking it would feel like I'd be more relaxed, more compassionate with myself and others and accepting of reality as it is rather than trying to manipulate it or wish it was another way.

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Vivien
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:52 am

Hi RickT,

What name would you want me to call you?

I would like to ask you to learn to use the quotation function, so our conversation will be easier to read later for both of us.

So here is the link to a video how to quote:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.
I'm looking to know my true self.
I feel if I knew our true nature
There are lots of misunderstanding about awakening, and striving to find my true nature or my true self is very popular spiritual belief. What happens is that the self imagines that I have a true nature or a true self, and I just have to find it, so somehow I can change or swap my position, from my not-true nature to my true nature, so I can feel better and I can be happy and at peace.

But now we are talking about 3 selves!

- My not true nature / ego or whatever we call it
- My true nature / my real self
- And a third self who can move from or leave behind the place of ‘not my true nature’ and travel to or move to ‘my true nature’.

Do you see the trick here? What if there is no one, no two, no three, but actually NONE of me/self?

What if the notion of ‘my true nature’ is just a disguise for the only self there is, which is just an illusion.
No matter how it is called, it’s still a self. It’s still a belief in a separate entity.
I feel if I knew our true nature I could always be 100% sure I'm interacting with the world from a place of authenticity not ego driven.
But what if there is no you whatsoever, who is interacting with others? What if interactions just happen, but without any form of a self?

Your desire is based on the belief that there is a real actual self/me, who can change itself and be able to interact with the world from a different position. But this self is illusionary.

Awakening is the realization that here is no I, that there is nothing there. There is nothing interacting with the world. That the body is empty of a self. So there is no self to improve. No self to get to a better or more authentic place.
I want to change my judgements on how I think things should be and only perceive reality as it is.
This is a belief on behalf of a self. The self who wants to change itself.
But awakening is not about self improvement. You won’t become better, and be able to perceive reality as it is.
Since there is no you, no self anywhere would could be changed or improved.

What if realization is not about changing how reality is perceived, but rather about the deep experiential recognition of the fact that there is no I or self at the core, no perceiver at all? Just life happening, but to no one?
I have many self esteem issues relating to programming from my past. I know intellectually that's what they are and have worked on them but I'd like not to relate to them at all.
Dear RickT, you are trying to get rid of something. But there is nothing to get rid of, and there is no one who could get rid of anything.

Seeing no self means to discover that there is no I who has been programmed in the past, there is no I, who has self esteem issues.

The one who would like to get rid of this, is just an illusion. Just a fictional character.
I guess I'd like to leave the past in the past and live in the now comfortably.
But what if there is no I, who is living life? What if there is nothing that could leave the past and live in the now? What if life just happening, but to no one?
I feel I'd be more at ease, able to be kind always,
I can tell you for sure, that you won’t be kind always. This is a very big and unrealistic expectation. Who could become kind always? The fictional me-character?

Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about seeing that emotions don’t belong to anything. They are free floating without being tied to or anchored to anything.
Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.

sometimes not often and not terribly but I respond angrily to situations. I don't want that aspect of emotion in my life.
Dear friend, seeing through the self illusion is not about getting rid of the unpleasant emotions. You won’t stop being a human. It’s not possible to get rid of half of the human emotions and just live happy after.

I know, my comments probably trigger resistance, but what you are after is a dream.

Freedom doesn’t come from trying to get rid of all the unpleasant emotions. Freedom comes when it’s seen that none of the emotions are happening to me, since there is no me who could have emotions.

Freedom comes when ALL emotions are felt freely without pushing them away, or trying to run away from them.

When there is suffering, it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added on narrative.

And the personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through. All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. The falling away of conditioning can last at the end of the organism.

What I can tell you for sure, that it won’t be the way how you imagine it. It cannot know in advance how it will be. Why? Because all expectations come on behalf of a separate self, who is always in a search for peace, happiness, lack of fear and suffering. We simply cannot imagine it, since we cannot step outside form the separate self’s perspective. We can only imagine within the dream of me. The illusionary me is simply unable to imagine how it would be if it were discovered to be just a fictional character, and not a reality. It can only imagine what it wants for itself.

Please ponder on my comments to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?
Do you feel ready to start the investigation?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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RickT
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby RickT » Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:44 pm

What name would you want me to call you?
Rick is fine

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?
It's odd, as I was reading it all I could do was laugh. I'm not sure if it because it blew my mind or because I recognised potential truth. Either way, yes there is resistance to it. I got what you meant about there can't be all those selfs moving between each other but to accept i don't exist may take some doing. I can see that this isn't like anything I'd expected but I'm open and ready to enquire. Hopefully I've done the quote thing correctly. Thank you

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RickT
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby RickT » Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:46 pm

I would like to ask you to learn to use the quotation function, so our conversation will be easier to read later for both of us.
oops maybe this is right

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RickT
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby RickT » Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:55 pm

I would like to ask you to learn to use the quotation function, so our conversation will be easier to read later for both of us.
Done I think

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Vivien
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby Vivien » Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:23 am

Hi RickT,

You can check how your post will look like before actually posting it by pressing the ‘Preview’ button next to the submit button.

Let’s start with looking at thoughts.

I would like to ask you to do every inquiry for a whole day. Please don’t reply too quickly. Spend as much time as you can every day looking at that day’s pointers, again and again and again. You can have one or two longer sessions, but also please try to incorporate several small (10 seconds each) mini session into your daily life.

What do you do exactly in order to think?
How do you make (or birth) thoughts into existence?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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RickT
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby RickT » Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:31 pm

What do you do exactly in order to think?
I'd say either recall the past. Imagine the future sometimes if you need to solve a problem you use reason/logic this usually comes from past experience though I guess. There is also the element of consciously choosing what to think like a mantra to stop compulsive thinking.
How do you make (or birth) thoughts into existence?
I really don't know. Mostly they happen by themselves. I've learnt during meditation to stop thinking to a point by feeling my inner energies or listening to a high pitched ring I sometimes hear, or music but I've never thought about how to birth thoughts, unless it's from recall of past or imagining future

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Vivien
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby Vivien » Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:06 am

Hi RickT,
Imagine the future sometimes if you need to solve a problem you use reason/logic this usually comes from past experience though I guess
The thing is that you are guessing. Guessing can happens only in thinking.
But with this inquiry we cannot get anywhere with thinking.
You have to shift your attention from thinking to actually observing what happens here now, outside of the realm of thoughts.
I'd say either recall the past.
This is also coming from guessing, but let’s see if this is actually the case.

But HOW do you recall the past? Please write the step-by-step process how you do it exactly.

What do you do EXACTLY in order for the thoughts and mental images to appear?


Please read my comments very carefully… and take them very literally.
There is also the element of consciously choosing what to think like a mantra to stop compulsive thinking.
The general belief is that we have power over thoughts. That we can choose what to think about. But is this really true?

Do you have unpleasant thoughts? Do you chose them?
Why do you have them if you have control over thoughts?
If thoughts can be thought or created, why not make it so that only pleasant thoughts are thought?
If you had any control over thoughts, why don’t you just stop choosing unhappy or negative thoughts?
If you were the thinker of thoughts, wouldn’t it be the easiest thing to think whatever you like, and not think what you don’t like?


Please set a timer for 10 minutes. The task is to think EXCLUSIVELY pleasant thoughts for the whole duration. Not a single negative thought, and not even a neutral one. But 100% positive. If you are the thinker/creator of thoughts, this should be the easiest thing to do :)

Let me how it goes.

I've learnt during meditation to stop thinking
This is another unquestioned assumption that we humans believe.

But can you really stop thinking? Set a timer for 10 minutes, and during this time COMPLETELY stop thinking. Don’t think even a single thought. Not even a thought of “I am not thinking”.
Let me know how it goes.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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RickT
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby RickT » Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:56 am

I tried replying earlier but the forum gateway was faulty
But HOW do you recall the past? Please write the step-by-step process how you do it exactly.
I honestly don't know. In the past I would have said, I check inside my brain to see what information I could remember but after doing the inquiry you set about only having Happy thoughts or not thinking at all, it's obvious I'm not controlling the thoughts at all. They mostly just appear. I'm confused because if I have an objective I want to achieve, I can then summon the information I need to achieve that so it seems like I have some control but truth is truth always. So if I can't control them always, then I'm not controlling them at all.
What do you do EXACTLY in order for the thoughts and mental images to appear?
Now that I've considered it the only way I can describe it is, it's like you create a gap between your thoughts and allow the one you want to pop in but this makes little sense.

You said before
When there is suffering, it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added on narrative.
Whom are the wounds inside? And who is adding on the narrative of self?

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Vivien
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby Vivien » Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:15 am

Hi Rick,

Yes, there as some technical issues with the website. Admins are working on it.
I'm confused because if I have an objective I want to achieve, I can then summon the information I need to achieve that so it seems like I have some control but truth is truth always. So if I can't control them always, then I'm not controlling them at all.
The problem is that this is a logical conclusion. Since you’ve seen that you cannot stop thinking, therefore you conclude that I cannot have control at any time. This is a valid conclusion, however, it’s not enough. Since this is not something you experientially see, but rather just something you intellectually understood.
But this needs to be seen.
V: What do you do EXACTLY in order for the thoughts and mental images to appear?
R: Now that I've considered it the only way I can describe it is, it's like you create a gap between your thoughts and allow the one you want to pop in but this makes little sense.
Rick, this is fantasizing. This is a fantasy speculation. This is a dead-end.

Are you sure that you can create a gap between thoughts? And how would you do that? Do you push with your left hand one thought to the left, and with your right hand the other thought to the right? Isn’t this just an imagination?

Do you see that this is just a fantasy?

Do you see that I am not asking to speculate and fantasize how thinking happens, but rather OBSERVE in experience as thoughts come and go?

V: When there is suffering, it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added on narrative.
R: Whom are the wounds inside? And who is adding on the narrative of self?
The thing is that your question is intellectual. You’ve learned from our conversation that there is no self, and now you are using this intellectual understanding.

But intellectual understanding has no value in this inquiry. Literally no value. Utterly useless.

Instead of answering, and just adding more to intellectual understanding, let me reply with questions :)
R: Whom are the wounds inside? And who is adding on the narrative of self?
What makes you think that there is a ‘whom’?
Does an emotional wound needs an owner?

What makes you think that a there needs to be someone adding a narrative, in order for this to happen?

Is there someone making things happen? Where is this someone?

Or things just happen on their own? Including thoughts? Including the narration on behalf of a self?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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RickT
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby RickT » Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:59 pm

Are you sure that you can create a gap between thoughts? And how would you do that? Do you push with your left hand one thought to the left, and with your right hand the other thought to the right? Isn’t this just an imagination?

Do you see that this is just a fantasy?

Do you see that I am not asking to speculate and fantasize how thinking happens, but rather OBSERVE in experience as thoughts come and go?
Yes this is nonsense. You asked me to describe how I thought, the process behind it, and I can't.
What makes you think that there is a ‘whom’?
Does an emotional wound needs an owner?

What makes you think that a there needs to be someone adding a narrative, in order for this to happen?

Is there someone making things happen? Where is this someone?

Or things just happen on their own? Including thoughts? Including the narration on behalf of a self?
The experience of seeing and feeling and tasting and touching makes me think I am a whom. The feeling of the emotional wound makes me think I own it.
I dont think anyone needs to add a narrative.
People make things happen. They build things. They hurt people. They make sure their needs are met even to the exclusion of others needs.
Somethings happen on their own other things are manipulated in to being.
All this is know experientially.
Even my thoughts are experienced

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Vivien
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Re: Journey to here and now

Postby Vivien » Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:49 am

Hi Rick,

The thing is that you wrote down your thoughts, what you BELIEVE.

Is it clear that what we are doing here is to question the validity of your thoughts? If thoughts actually telling the truth by comparing them to reality (experience)?

What is the difference between thinking and experiencing?

The experience of seeing and feeling and tasting and touching makes me think I am a whom. The feeling of the emotional wound makes me think I own it.
Yes, there is an experience of seeing. But is there an I that sees? Where?

There is an experience of hearing. But is there an I that hears? Where?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
RickT
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:23 am

Re: Journey to here and now

Postby RickT » Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:43 pm

Yes, there is an experience of seeing. But is there an I that sees? Where?

There is an experience of hearing. But is there an I that hears? Where?
So we are the awareness of the experience not the experience itself.


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