Halfway there?

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Vivien
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Re: Halfway there?

Postby Vivien » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:24 am

Are you still with me?
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

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awakeningbk
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Re: Halfway there?

Postby awakeningbk » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:04 pm

Hi Vivien,

Yes - I’m sorry. At first I thought you were going to resend the relevant questions that you thought I was missing (I wasn’t sure which ones), but then after rereading and checking in a couple days ago, I realized that I had to take every question from our correspondence and answer them individually. I don’t have a proper computer at home, so I knew I’d have to do part of this job at work because copying and pasting is easier on a desktop than a phone.. I’ve been a little daunted by how big the task is, but I can make it a priority to get it all done by tomorrow afternoon. Does that work?

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Vivien
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Re: Halfway there?

Postby Vivien » Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:40 am

I understand that isn't easy to reply without a laptop, but without a proper communication no real investigation can happen.

Please consider if you really want this or not. This inquiry is not mandatory, you don't have to do it, if you are not committed enough. We don't have to force something what doesn't come naturally.

Either you are 100% in and committed, or you are not. But if you are not, then probably this is not the time to continue.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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awakeningbk
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Re: Halfway there?

Postby awakeningbk » Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:56 am

Hi Vivien.

All right, I understand. Thank you for your patience with me. I think there was genuine problem with completing this with work and life - knowing it would take several hours (it took 2 with the copying, pasting, and answering, and it was almost impossible to fit in with my working life and other responsibilities the past couple days), but I think also that you were right that there is also fear and discomfort there.

But I feel a strong pull to it - like I can’t not. I want to see the truth, more than I want comfort, but still it’s very uncomfortable. I have tried to look “behind” that discomfort as referenced in other inquiries (no, I am not reading them during our inquiry, but I remember the phrase and I remember the results from others) - and I haven’t necessarily seen “emptiness” there.
But anyway. I feel a very strong urge to continue, if you’re willing as well. I do deeply appreciate the time you’ve put into this.

This is a little bit of a monster of an installment for obvious reasons, but regardless apologies for the length. All the answers are currently where I am at this moment. I condensed questions where it seemed reasonable to do so, and tried to answer honestly but succinctly.

Is there a FEELING that I am inside the body and the world is out there?
And I am looking out the eyes, like through two windows?
Yes - there is still a feeling that I am looking out the eyes like through two windows.
As you go about your everyday life, how does the self/I/me show up?
Mainly in the form of emotions at this point. Arising and falling emotions tied to the stories - stress due to a tight work deadline, insult from someone saying something offensive about “me”, excitement at something going right work-wise. Regarding the insult - that fell away when I thought about how they were insulting a story (“me”), not a tangible thing. The image of myself as a process, existing in the now, came up.


You say, that you have an ego? And this ego having a meltdown and revolting? Are you sure about this? Is this what experience show, here now in this very moment?
No ego - just thought. I will cut out some of the other questions because I see that the ego is thought.
Or there are only THOUGHTS ABOUT an ego, only THOUGHTS ABOUT a meltdown, and only THOUGHTS ABOUT revolting?
This is what’s true. It’s all just thoughts.
Can you literally experience an ego? Can you see it? Can you touch it? Can you smell it? Taste it? Does it have a size? Color? Shape? Texture?
It doesn’t exist in reality.

What is the difference between EXPERIENCING your surroundings, and THINKING about it?
What is the difference between experience and thinking/imagining?
Experience is tangible, experience is what IS. Thinking and imagining aren’t different at all, they’re all just thoughts.

And what is the difference between thinking and imagining?
No difference at all - it’s all just thoughts.
Does the body make conclusion what caused what?
Does the baby categorizes his/her experience and putting labels on them, like ego, or anger, or whatever?
Or for the baby there is only what is. Only the raw experience. Can you see this?
Yup - irrefutably. Thoughts are just categories, but they aren’t real. Only full sensory experience is what’s real - categories are just made up things.
Categorizing thoughts according what emotions follows them is totally conceptual, happens only thinking, and NEVER IN REALITY.
Can you see this?
Yes absolutely — they don’t actually exist.

In the case of thinking, it’s an imagined sound. The imagine sounds of words = verbal / auditory thoughts.
In the case of imagination, it’s imagined pictures. We can say that imagination = visual / pictorial thoughts.
Can you see this?
Yes. Still all thinking!!!!!

But can you sit on the thought of ‘chair’? Or can you sit on of the mental image of a chair?
Really try it, do your best… sit onto the thought ‘chair’. Can you do that? Why not?
Now do everything you can to TASTE the thought ‘sweet’. Not imagining sweetness, but actually tasting the thought itself. Can you do that?
And now FEEL the thought ‘warm’. Not imagining warmness, but actually feeling the thought itself. Is it possible? Why not?
Can the thought ‘fragrant scent’ be smelled?
Can the thought ‘beautiful sunset’ be seen?
Can the thought of ‘loud noise’ be heard?
Can the thought of ‘walking on a beach’ make your feet wet and sandy?
If you say no, then why not?
Because thoughts aren’t REAL!!! You really beat around this at every angle for me haha. I appreciate it. I totally see it and agree.


[quoet]Can anything be experienced other than with the 5 senses? Is there any other option?[/quote]
Nothing! Literally nothing.

Can the thought of drinking water make your thirst away?
Can the thought of ‘walking on a beach’ make your feet wet and sandy?
WHY not?
So what is the difference between real and imagined?
Real is what actually exists, it affects the senses, it’s there whether I think about it or believe in it or not. Imagined does not, cannot be nor affect reality, because it does not exist.
So what is real is there even when you stop thinking about it, right?
Yes - exactly.

It doesn’t matter if that memory thought about a past disagreement with the boss is true or not. What matters, that it this very moment, it’s just an IMAGINATION. It’s not real, it’s not happening.
Can you clearly see the difference? Do you see that you are focusing on the ‘wrong end’ of the stick?
Yes. It’s still all just imagined made up thoughts. It doesn’t actually exist in reality.

We are going much deeper than just trying to judge the accuracy of a thought.
We are investigating the phenomenon of thought itself.
Is this clear?
Yes this is clear. The actual content is not relevant.
So please bring up a memory, an interaction with someone what has happened in the past. I will refer to this with the boss example, but please translate my question to your particular memory.
In this very moment, as you bring up the memory, is your boss actually there with you?
Is that scenario of disagreement is actually happening in this very moment?
If you say no, then what is it that is actually happening in this very moment?
The answer is of course no, and what’s happening in this moment is I am physically sitting, writing on my phone. I am sitting far removed from my boss, at home. There is a vivid imagination of the disagreement, but nothing in reality.


Is it possible to be anywhere else than here now?
No - it is impossible.
When there is a thought about the past, WHEN does that thought is happening?
And WHEN does a fantasy about the future is happening?
Is it possible to fall out of this present moment?
It is totally impossible to be anywhere other than right this moment, right now. Living in the past or the future, imagining situations and scenarios of the past and future, has zero bearing on the occupation and reality of right now. To be absorbed in thoughts of the past or future is just to be absorbed in thoughts.

Do you need to try to be here now? Or to be present?
No - there is no effort necessary at all. It’s impossible to be anything but present.

Reality is what is there when we stop thinking about it.
Real what is here when there is no thought about it.
Reality is what exists REGARDLESS any thought about it.
Are these true statements? True: meaning, are these thoughts I wrote above IN LINE with reality (experience)?
Yes - these statements are true. I’ve seen it for myself.
It’s real as a thought story, but its reality stops there. The content (what the story is about) is utterly conceptual, without any reality (experience) whatsoever. Just thought-fluff.
Is this clear now?
Yes. Yes yes yes yes yes yes. It might have existed in a past “now”, but it does not exist in this moment, it is not tangible nor real.

Look at your favourite chair again.
In the moment as you look at it (hence experience it by seeing), think the thought ‘chair’.
That thought might be an accurate (or true) label for the thing you are looking at in the moment, but the thought itself will never ever becomes a real, experiencable thing. The thought ‘chair’ can never become a REAL chair.
Is this clear? Or is there any doubt? Or anything that is not totally clear about this?
Yes this makes absolute sense. The mental category is not the reality.
. The real isn’t a concept, it is actual life, existence itself.
2. Real = exists
3. That which is real is that WHAT IS, always perfectly, precisely, and absolutely, NOW.
Please check if these statements are true (in line with experience). Is there any doubt? Or anything that is not totally clear?
Nope - this I completely agree with.
So, is there a real ego in this very moment?
No - just thoughts! It’s just a categorization for thoughts.
And what about a mind? Is there a ‘mind’ here now, in this very moment?
And what about a thinker? Is there someone here, producing thoughts, or somehow making them happen? Or thoughts just happen on their own, automatically, effortlessly? Just as rain is happening without a doer / rainer?
It’s all just thoughts. Thoughts arising - but a dominant master causing the thoughts to arise? I can’t find anything at all. There is nothing there but the uncontrollable arising of thoughts. No one directing it, no one in charge of it.

So, is there any thought, any at all, that is thought by someone, and not just appeared automatically, on its own?
Is there any power over thoughts?
None - there is no control or power over thoughts at all. They just come up, they just happen.
Can a thought believe in itself? Is that possible?
In order for this to be true, thoughts have to be real, living entities, who are thinking, feeling, experiencing. But is this so?
Thoughts seem to occur as tangents, but I am not sure that counts as “believing in themselves”. But there does seem to be times when thoughts “believe” in themselves... I don’t know another word for it. For example, in “my” experience thus far, I will be going along with a perfectly happy set of thoughts - and then a terrible anxious thought will arise. And then - something believes the thought to be true... It feels like the thoughts themselves, or the body - because then a torrent of thoughts arise based on that one scary/anxious thought. Analyzing it, testing it’s veracity, seeing if it is worth believing.

Heart rate rises, sweat happens, fidgeting happens. What is this??? I feel like it’s a massive barrier to understanding this. How can there be physical/sensory cause and effect if there is no one to believe? Something believes these anxious thoughts, because sometimes anxious thoughts can be ignored, or more thoughts talking about the anxious thought can dispel it, and sometimes it cannot be reasoned away by more thought, and there are physical sensations that arise.

What can a thought do?
Can a thought feel?
Can a thought experience?
Can a thought think?
Does a thought have volition?
No - a thought cannot in itself do these things. But it can seem to cause these things, sensations that are rooted in reality??? This has been what I’ve seen thus far, though I’ve tried to watch from different angles and circumstances - yet often, I’ll get swept up in the thought and have an emotional reaction!


So now, search for the one that believes thoughts.
Where is the believer? Is it in the chest? In the hands? The lower back? In the head? In the throat? In the forehead? In the eyes? In the ears? Where exactly?
I’ve been so confused, because it seems like the only believer I can find is in the body! Other than that, there is no one there to believe - but there are genuine, real sensations that arise as a result of believing, so there must be something real there in some way?

I feel like the true answer is “no one” is the believer - but in my bones there is resistance there due to everything I described - I haven’t seen that personally... I have seen cause and effect, thought resulting in emotion, which in extreme cases results in actual physical manifestation, like crying, laughing with joy, sweating, or heart rate rising.

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Vivien
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Re: Halfway there?

Postby Vivien » Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:55 am

Hi awakeningbk,

The thing is that the more confusion there is the bigger the pull to give more questions, to look at things for all the possible angles. As the conversation goes on, and there is more and more clarity, my number of questions usually lessen.
But I try to give you less questions, to help you with replying.
Thoughts seem to occur as tangents, but I am not sure that counts as “believing in themselves”. But there does seem to be times when thoughts “believe” in themselves...
But in order for thoughts to believe in themselves, they have to be self-directed, self-governing, autonomous entities with their own will to do so. But is this so?
And then - something believes the thought to be true... It feels like the thoughts themselves, or the body - because then a torrent of thoughts arise based on that one scary/anxious thought. Analyzing it, testing it’s veracity, seeing if it is worth believing.
Saying that the body believes in thoughts, is just a thought assumption.
There is no experiential proof for it. But check this out for yourself.
Heart rate rises, sweat happens, fidgeting happens. What is this??? I feel like it’s a massive barrier to understanding this.
I’ve been so confused, because it seems like the only believer I can find is in the body! Other than that, there is no one there to believe - but there are genuine, real sensations that arise as a result of believing, so there must be something real there in some way?
This is based on the assumption that there must be a subject, a doer, who/what makes things happen. This assumption comes from language, which is dualistic. (subject – doing – object)

And since you believe that there must be something doing the believing, that there must be a subject, you make a logical conclusion that it must be a body, because there are sensations as the result of believing.

Look at the clouds and rain and storms.
Is it cloud that does the raining? Or the rain that rains itself? Or is it water that does falling? Or certain conditions make raining happen?
And what is deciding to turn the rain into a storm or hurricane?
And what makes the rain stop? Is it the sky’s doing?
Is there a doer of rain? Is there something or someone making the rain happen?
Is it possible that no one starts the rain?
Is it possible that cloud doesn’t choose to rain?


Now look, what is it that is doing thinking? Is there any one making it happen, or it’s happening automatically, on its own?

And what about believing? Is there actually something believing, or it just happens just as rain or digestion happens?

And what if sensations just arise when a thought taken to be true in a similar way, just as rain or wind happens when certain conditions are in place?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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awakeningbk
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Re: Halfway there?

Postby awakeningbk » Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:29 am

But in order for thoughts to believe in themselves, they have to be self-directed, self-governing, autonomous entities with their own will to do so. But is this so?
That is a very good point... They’re not self-governing, they can’t be. They just happen. I can see that this is not the case. I’ve seen this directly.
Is it possible that no one starts the rain?
Is it possible that cloud doesn’t choose to rain?
Can there be a cause and effect without a causer? Ok - yes, I think that’s what is. Cause and effect can exist, but the agent isn’t there. I think I see what you’re saying now. Thoughts can cause emotions, but nobody is decision-making what is caused and what is not.... This makes sense. I can see this. The example of the raincloud is perfect..

Is this what you mean?
Now look, what is it that is doing thinking? Is there any one making it happen, or it’s happening automatically, on its own?
It’s happening automatically - totally on it’s own. There is no one there forcing it or directing it to occur.
And what about believing? Is there actually something believing, or it just happens just as rain or digestion happens?
I cannot see anyone there believing, I cannot find anyone doing the action itself. Even believing as a word doesn’t exactly make sense in this context.. Hm. I need to continue to observe.
And what if sensations just arise when a thought taken to be true in a similar way, just as rain or wind happens when certain conditions are in place?
“Conditions” this word makes sense.. The above makes sense. To call it conditions squares with what I see when I sit with it. The image of a marble being hit by another marble keeps coming to mind.

The implications of this are very big though. I feel like there’s a lot to untangle as a result, but it all also makes total sense. I need to think about it extensively, or maybe just observe

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Vivien
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Re: Halfway there?

Postby Vivien » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:21 am

Hi awakeningbk,

I got your message you sent to the admins. There have been some issues with the site, but admins working on it. I also have problems to assessing it.
Can there be a cause and effect without a causer? Ok - yes, I think that’s what is. Cause and effect can exist, but the agent isn’t there. I think I see what you’re saying now. Thoughts can cause emotions, but nobody is decision-making what is caused and what is not.... This makes sense. I can see this. The example of the raincloud is perfect..
Is this what you mean?
Yes. Things happen due to some conditions, but it doesn’t mean that there is a doer behind them. Just as there is no rainer, no wind blower, no tree grower, no weather maker, no digester, no blood pumper, no cell repairer, no immune system coordinator.

But it’s one thing to understand it intellectually, and it’s a totally different thing to actually seeing it in experience. So this is where we have to put our focus on, so you can have a deep experiential recognition of it, and not just an intellectual understanding of it.
The implications of this are very big though. I feel like there’s a lot to untangle as a result, but it all also makes total sense. I need to think about it extensively, or maybe just observe
Please don’t go to thinking. Thinking won’t help. Actually, it’s in the way. The whole illusion is mainly created by thoughts, so you cannot see through the illusion by the same tool which has been creating the illusion itself. Rather leave thoughts behind. Just put them aside, you don’t need them.

The discovery comes when you shift your attention to experiencing, what is here now, in this very moment.

Here is an exercise for you that helps to see the difference between thinking and experiencing.

Imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine its shape, size, weight, temperature, color. Now keep it there, close your eyes, and feel the imaginary spoon.

Then, open your eyes:
Is there a spoon here, in real life?
So how did you see that there is no spoon?
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or it never existed?


Now go and get a spoon from the kitchen and hold it in the same way that you imagined it.
Feel the spoon’s form, its size, its weight, its temperature. Close your eyes and feel the spoon for a while.
Now open your eyes ... is there a spoon here, in real life?
Are a visual thought of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?
How does imagining and experiencing differ?


Please experiment with several other objects too, before replying.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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awakeningbk
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Re: Halfway there?

Postby awakeningbk » Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:09 am

Is there a spoon here, in real life?
So how did you see that there is no spoon?
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or it never existed?
Nothing, there is nothing there at all.
I saw there was no spoon by immediately looking, by no feeling for it between my fingers as well. Nothing happened to it, as it was never there. It never existed at all.

Now go and get a spoon from the kitchen and hold it in the same way that you imagined it.
Feel the spoon’s form, its size, its weight, its temperature. Close your eyes and feel the spoon for a while.
Now open your eyes ... is there a spoon here, in real life?
Are a visual thought of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?
How does imagining and experiencing differ?
(I did this with a spoon, a book, and a bottle)

Yes - it’s right here in my hands. No - no no no. The visual thought of the spoon and the experience of it are totally different.

Imagining and experience differ in that one is actually existing, and the other is not. One is there, regardless of my thoughts about it, whereas the other is constructed of the concepts I make up regarding it. I can think the category “smooth”, but to feel “smooth” is a very different thing.

And yes - thank you for reminding me. I am trying not to think, just observe.

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Vivien
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Re: Halfway there?

Postby Vivien » Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:28 am

Hi awakeningbk,

You did a nice investigation :)

Would you say that now it’s totally clear what is the difference between thinking (imagination) and reality (experience)?

Have something to eat, like a piece of fruit. Take a bite. Notice the taste that appears.

Are you making taste appear or is it showing up on its own?

Is taste controllable? Can you adjust taste to your liking?
Can you have a different taste than what is appearing in this very moment?

Describe the taste in as many words as you can. How description and experience differ?

Can you see that both experience of taste and description arise as a simultaneous happening?

What do you notice from this investigation?


Please investigate this a few times during the day. Also experiment with smelling.
Let me know what you find.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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awakeningbk
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Re: Halfway there?

Postby awakeningbk » Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:38 am

Would you say that now it’s totally clear what is the difference between thinking (imagination) and reality (experience)?
Yes, absolutely. I feel like I’ve seen this pretty thoroughly with our investigation - from the spoon to the chair, what’s real versus just made up.
Are you making taste appear or is it showing up on its own?
It shows up on it’s own - there is no person directing the sensation of taste to happen.
Is taste controllable? Can you adjust taste to your liking?
Can you have a different taste than what is appearing in this very moment?
Taste is not controllable at all. It cannot be adjusted at all - you cannot have an actual different taste than what is appearing in this moment, cannot cause it to be any different than what it is.
Describe the taste in as many words as you can. How description and experience differ?
(I opted to taste a tiny bit of salt rather than fruit - because it’s close by, intense, and I am extremely full from dinner/don’t have room for fruit in my stomach).
Well - it’s salty, obviously. With only a small amount, a bright intense pang of saltiness on my tongue and immediately throughout my mouth occurs.
Description doesn’t even come close to encapsulating the true experience of saltiness. Experience is the real - description is just thoughts based on that reality, imagination at work, categories - but all thoughts still.
Can you see that both experience of taste and description arise as a simultaneous happening?
Yes - they do both arise at once. The descriptive process is so automatic.
What do you notice from this investigation?
Paying attention to how thoughts arise automatically with experience - for some reason before this, I felt that they lagged a little bit. But there seems to be a simultaneous arising

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Vivien
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Re: Halfway there?

Postby Vivien » Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:34 am

Hi awakeningbk,

You did a nice investigation.

Now, please spend as much time as you can in the midst of your daily life to observing and noticing how the body moves, how it feels, what it does.

You can notice how the legs are moving as walking happens.
When walking, what do you do in order for the legs to move?
Are you making walking happen, or it just happens automatically and effortlessly?

When you sit down, or stand up, is this something you do, or something that is happening?


Notice all sorts of sensations in the body.
Are you making the sensations happen, or they are there, without anyone or anything making them to be?

When breathing happens, are you making it to happen, or it happens automatically without anyone making it happen?

When preparing food, or eating, washing your hands, typing, brushing your teeth, dressing up, are you making the hands move, or the hands just move by themselves?

Is there a central controller somewhere in the body, from where strings are pulled to lift the arms, and move the body? Or all of it just happening automatically?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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awakeningbk
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Re: Halfway there?

Postby awakeningbk » Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:55 pm

Vivien,

Just an update - I am actually en route right now to see a relative who is on their deathbed. We just received notice that she might pass within 24-48 hours. I will try to do the exercise and reply, but I may have trouble communicating or taking part for the next couple days. I hope this is all right?

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Vivien
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Re: Halfway there?

Postby Vivien » Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:59 am

Of course. No problem. Sorry to hear about your relative.

Thank you for letting me know.
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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awakeningbk
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Re: Halfway there?

Postby awakeningbk » Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:56 pm

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for your patience. Last week was difficult, and she passed away. However, I got home a day ago and am now ready to continue the inquiry. I really, really appreciate your patience with me with this. I will reread our correspondence, consider what you wrote all day today, and dive back in fully. Does that sound ok?

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Vivien
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Re: Halfway there?

Postby Vivien » Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:19 am

Yes, that's sounds good.

I'm looking forward to your replies :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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