Guide Request

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Re: Guide Request

Postby restart » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:52 pm

Hi Vivien,
Inside the visual thought? Do you believe that the content or the inside of a visual thought is real?
No, I see that the visual thought is not real. I have also learned that there is no way to go inside the thought or its contents.
Do you remember the spoon exercise? What is the difference between imagining a spoon and imagining a ‘temporary sensation of I’?
Imagining a spoon and a temporary sensation of I are actually the same. Both are not actually there. I have imagined different contents, but the reality of both is the same.
Does the content of the imaginations matters? Does the content has ANY reality?
I have now seen that the content of the imagination does not have any reality. I did not realise that this also means that the content doesn't matter. It seems obvious when I read it now.
Do you see that no matter what the content of a visual thought is, it’s never ever real? Since it’s always stays in the realm of imagination, fiction, and not reality?
Yes!
Disconnect? What kind of connection are you after?
I still notice myself annoyed at the movies. I find myself looking to stay with the sensations instead. That feels like the connection, while the movies / amnesia feel like disconnection. When I forget they are not real.
Let’s look at what happens here. Going to the content, is just dreaming about self-improvement. Improving a self that does not exists!
I see. So it is a fruitless task to look at contents, and constantly try to improve.
Can you see that NONE of the contents are EVER actually HAPPENING?
Yes
Do you see that no matter what a thought is about, it’s NEVER EVER a reality?
Also yes!
Why would you want to fix a fantasy?
Agreed: it does not make sense to fix a fantasy. It just wastes energy.
Why not concentrating on seeing the reality of these thoughts, that these are just imaginations, just fiction and not reality?
"The reality of these thoughts": this is what irritates me when I look. I notice I keep trying to see the reality of the contents of these thoughts, and then discover I cannot. I am understanding it is better to look at the reality of the thought itself, rather than the content.

I also notice in the past few days that I often start to label thoughts. For example, "that's imagination". "That's not real". It satisfies me and makes me feel like I'm getting somewhere, to the bottom of it. It also worries me, as if I'm just wasting my time to make myself feel better.
When you wake up from a night-time dream, do you try to fix the character in the dream? No? Why not? Because you know that the dream wasn’t really, that it didn’t happen in reality, it just was an imagination?
True. I have never tried to fix a character in a dream, as I know it is not real.
So what about our daytime dreams? Have you noticed that we are dreaming with open eyes?
I have never considered my daytime life as a dream. I always saw my nighttime dreams as different than my daytime dreams.
Is this daytime dream story ever more real than a night-time dream?
I cannot say that the daytime dream is more real than the nighttime dream. Some justifications or explanations come up, but I see those are are imaginations too.
Does this daytime dream need more attention and consideration than a night-time dream?
I don't see any reason why this time daytime dream needs more attention or consideration than a nighttime dream. Again I notice explanations coming up. I want to reflect on this more.
The concept of a "temporary sensation of an I" seems to attract me.
Do you see that the above comment is the part of a daytime dream? That ‘the concept of a temporary sensation of an I seems to attract me, is ALREADY THE DREAM?
Yes, my concept of a temporary sensation of an I is part of that daytime dream.

Tom

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Re: Guide Request

Postby Vivien » Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:38 am

Hi Tom,
V: Does the content of the imaginations matters? Does the content has ANY reality?
T: I have now seen that the content of the imagination does not have any reality. I did not realise that this also means that the content doesn't matter. It seems obvious when I read it now.
You say “when I read it know”. Does this mean that you didn’t look with these questions, you just considered them intellectually?
V: Do you see that the above comment is the part of a daytime dream? That ‘the concept of a temporary sensation of an I seems to attract me, is ALREADY THE DREAM?
T: Yes, my concept of a temporary sensation of an I is part of that daytime dream.
You are missing what I’m pointing here, the second time.

Not just the ‘temporary sensation of an I’ is part of the dream.
but the “it seems to attract me” is ALSO part of the dream!

It seems that you are not understanding even intellectually what no-self means.
It means literally, what is says. No self. No real actual self.

So the one that is being attracted is ALSO part of the dream. That me also doesn’t exist in reality.
I still notice myself annoyed at the movies. I find myself looking to stay with the sensations instead. That feels like the connection, while the movies / amnesia feel like disconnection. When I forget they are not real.
Dear Tom, you are BELIEVING that there is a YOU OUTSIDE of the movie.
And when you are in the movie, then you have an ‘amnesia’ and you are disconnected from sensations.
But when you are outside of the movie, then your amnesia is gone, and you can connect with the sensation.
But ALL of it is just a fantasy / dream.
The you being outside connected is a FANTASY.
Being outside and connected to the sensations is just another scene in the dream.

There is no you!
No you whatsoever.
Not just inside, but neither outside.

If you believe that there is a you outside of the movie, then you are STILL IN the movie, since being outside of the movies is just another scene in the movie.
Can you understand this intellectually?

Do you see that we are not just simply questioning the character IN the movie, but rather the character who is supposedly OUTSIDE the movie, who sometimes forget?

Is it clear that the there is no one having amnesia, and no one forgetting? That there is no one outside of the movie? Is it clear that this ‘outside you, who sometimes have amnesia and forgets’ IS THE ONE we are investigating, if this one is actually real, and not just imagined?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Guide Request

Postby restart » Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:10 pm

Hi Vivien,
You say “when I read it know”. Does this mean that you didn’t look with these questions, you just considered them intellectually?
Good point. To clarify, I am looking at each question. My normal process is to read them all in the morning - also looking at them one by one - and then looking whenever I can during the day and rereading occasionally. Then writing a reply in the evening. So that is what I meant in this case too.
You are missing what I’m pointing here, the second time. Not just the ‘temporary sensation of an I’ is part of the dream. but the “it seems to attract me” is ALSO part of the dream!
I did miss that, thank you for clarifying. I see that both parts of my statement were a part of the dream.
It seems that you are not understanding even intellectually what no-self means. It means literally, what is says. No self. No real actual self. So the one that is being attracted is ALSO part of the dream. That me also doesn’t exist in reality.
It feels like I understand it intellectually - and also often when I look - but that it's not always applied or seen in every case.
Dear Tom, you are BELIEVING that there is a YOU OUTSIDE of the movie.
And when you are in the movie, then you have an ‘amnesia’ and you are disconnected from sensations.
But when you are outside of the movie, then your amnesia is gone, and you can connect with the sensation.
But ALL of it is just a fantasy / dream.
The you being outside connected is a FANTASY.
Being outside and connected to the sensations is just another scene in the dream.
Right, the feeling of being disconnected or outside the movie is also part of the dream too. Also being amnesic and not amnesic.
If you believe that there is a you outside of the movie, then you are STILL IN the movie, since being outside of the movies is just another scene in the movie. Can you understand this intellectually?
This is clear intellectually, that believing I am outside the movie is simply a part of the movie.
Do you see that we are not just simply questioning the character IN the movie, but rather the character who is supposedly OUTSIDE the movie, who sometimes forget?
Yes, I am questioning both the character who is supposedly in the movie and also the one supposedly outside the movie. I understand both as part of the dream.
Is it clear that the there is no one having amnesia, and no one forgetting? That there is no one outside of the movie? Is it clear that this ‘outside you, who sometimes have amnesia and forgets’ IS THE ONE we are investigating, if this one is actually real, and not just imagined?
I see that whatever comes up is actually just another scene. Whether that's having amnesia, feeling disconnected or connected, being in a movie, the feeling of being attracted to something, the sensation of an I, etc.

Tom

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Re: Guide Request

Postby Vivien » Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:28 am

Hi Tom,
Good point. To clarify, I am looking at each question. My normal process is to read them all in the morning - also looking at them one by one - and then looking whenever I can during the day and rereading occasionally. Then writing a reply in the evening. So that is what I meant in this case too.
Good, thank you for sharing this.

I’m going to give you only two questions this time, pointing to the same thing.

What do you do exactly in order to think?
How do you make (or birth) a thought into existence?


Please stay with these for a whole day, and look as often as you can.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Guide Request

Postby restart » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:39 pm

Hi Vivien,
What do you do exactly in order to think?
I don't do anything particular to think. Thoughts just come and go.
How do you make (or birth) a thought into existence?
I don't know how to make or birth a thought into existence.

Tom

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Re: Guide Request

Postby Vivien » Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:15 am

Hi Tom,
I don't know how to make or birth a thought into existence.
So, do you think or you don’t think? Are you the thinker or you are not the thinker?

Please spend a whole day investigating these questions. Even when the answer seems to be clear, please look more.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Guide Request

Postby restart » Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:28 pm

Hi Vivien,
So, do you think or you don’t think?
There are thoughts, but I do not think.
Are you the thinker or you are not the thinker?
I am not the thinker.

Tom

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Re: Guide Request

Postby Vivien » Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:17 am

Hi Tom,

So there an assumption that there is an I, just this I is not the thinker. This I doesn’t do the thinking, but nevertheless it’s here somewhere. Is this what you believe?

So what is this I that is not the thinker?
Where is this I? Here, now, in this very moment, where is it?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Guide Request

Postby restart » Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:51 pm

Hi Vivien,
So there an assumption that there is an I, just this I is not the thinker. This I doesn’t do the thinking, but nevertheless it’s here somewhere. Is this what you believe?
No.
So what is this I that is not the thinker?
The I is nothing.
Where is this I?
The I is not here.
Here, now, in this very moment, where is it?
The I does not exist.

Tom

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Re: Guide Request

Postby Vivien » Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:20 am

Hi Tom,

Would you say that there has been a shift from an intellectual understanding of there being no separate self, to an experiential recognition of this fact?

Is there any doubt?

Also, could you please tell a bit what happens in your everyday life when not looking?


I would like to ask you to write a bit more, otherwise I cannot see where you are at the moment.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Guide Request

Postby restart » Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:02 pm

Hi Vivien,
Would you say that there has been a shift from an intellectual understanding of there being no separate self, to an experiential recognition of this fact?
I would say there is a strong intellectual understanding of there being no separate self, which was strengthened by a series of intense experiences of no separate self during looking yesterday.
Is there any doubt?
There was not too much doubt yesterday. There was stronger doubt today, coinciding with the start of my work week. Now that the workday is over, the doubt has receded again.
Also, could you please tell a bit what happens in your everyday life when not looking?
In the last period I have had more intense (peak) experiences on weekends, days-off or other times when I am not working. In the case of yesterday, it was not only weekend but now also combined with looking and the holding of questions, especially 'where is the I'. The peak experiences therefore became amplified to a degree I have never experienced in everyday life and for a longer duration. During these times, it appeared as if all that was there was the question being asked, along with the sensations that arose & disappeared. Thoughts came too, but they also appeared to arise & disappear as if they were just another sensation (rather than the feeling of a separate movie).

Back in the work week this morning, I again felt resistance along with stress & fears. In the last period, this resistance has been increasingly accompanied by occasional thoughts that everything is about me and I am in control. That I am responsible for everything going on around me and in the world, and that everything is a reflection of me.
I would like to ask you to write a bit more, otherwise I cannot see where you are at the moment.
Yesterday was so unusual that it felt important - and scary - to state what I experienced with conviction, without qualifying it. It felt and feels like I took a big step by doing so. I see though it's necessary for you to have more explanation, so will make sure to give more in future reports.

Thank you for all your help so far and your commitment.

Tom

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Re: Guide Request

Postby Vivien » Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:57 am

Hi Tom,
I see though it's necessary for you to have more explanation, so will make sure to give more in future reports.
Yes, it is. And also, it’s very important that you write what you can see clearly, and not just what you understand intellectually. Otherwise, I would have a false impression that you can see something, while actually you can’t. So my replies won’t be adequate to where you are at the moment.
I would say there is a strong intellectual understanding of there being no separate self, which was strengthened by a series of intense experiences of no separate self during looking yesterday.
Unfortunately, intellectual understanding is not enough, it needs to be seen experientially. And not just once, but lots of times. But that’s all right, there will come a time when it will be seen :)
In the last period I have had more intense (peak) experiences on weekends,
It’s important to mention here that seeing no-self is not a peak-experience. It’s not a different experience than what is normally happening. A peak-experience is a state, and seeing no self is not a state. And no states are permanent, their nature is to change.
Seeing no self is quite ordinary experience. It’s not a special state.
Back in the work week this morning, I again felt resistance along with stress & fears. In the last period, this resistance has been increasingly accompanied by occasional thoughts that everything is about me and I am in control. That I am responsible for everything going on around me and in the world, and that everything is a reflection of me.
What is the difference between doing and happening?

Is the separate self doing anything in life?
Or is it given? As an idea? Or as an entity?

Is it possible that everything (with no exception) is just happening?

What do you do right now for this to be?

Are you doing reading or reading is happening?
Are you doing sitting or sitting is happening?
Are you doing seeing or seeing is happening?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Guide Request

Postby restart » Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:03 pm

Hi Vivien,
It’s important to mention here that seeing no-self is not a peak-experience. It’s not a different experience than what is normally happening. A peak-experience is a state, and seeing no self is not a state. And no states are permanent, their nature is to change. Seeing no self is quite ordinary experience. It’s not a special state.
Speaking of intellectual understanding: I've noticed in this looking process that there are some things that I seem to understand not only intellectually, but that also 'click' in an intuitive (experiential?) way. On the other hand, there are things that I understand intellectually, but have little intuitive grasp. The above statement is an example of the second: it makes sense when I read it, but it feels like a distant understanding.
What is the difference between doing and happening?
This was a major eye-opener for my day. It seems that doing and happening are at the core the same thing, except that in 'doing' the I takes credit for what is happening.
Is the separate self doing anything in life?
I didn't come across the I doing anything at all (except taking the credit).
Or is it given? As an idea? Or as an entity?
This is another example of something I can understand intellectually, but have a hard time grasping further even when I look. Although I feel attracted to explore it. I think I just have to play with it some more.
Is it possible that everything (with no exception) is just happening?
Yes, I could accept that everything is just happening, without exception. While looking with this one I suddenly had the image of life as a series of snapshots of experience - like a slideshow - which arise and disappear one by one. And that when viewed in succession, gives the illusion of a continuous movie. I see that this is just a thought, but it seemed like a helpful way for me in the looking: to experience the constantly changing slides or scenes.
What do you do right now for this to be?
I do nothing at all for the slides to arise and disappear.
Are you doing reading or reading is happening?
Are you doing sitting or sitting is happening?
Are you doing seeing or seeing is happening?
Reading is happening.
Sitting is happening.
Seeing is happening.
Typing is happening.
Thinking is happening.
Leaning is happening.
Touching is happening.
This was helpful to practice throughout the day.

Tom

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Re: Guide Request

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:34 am

Hi Tom,
This was a major eye-opener for my day. It seems that doing and happening are at the core the same thing, except that in 'doing' the I takes credit for what is happening.
Yes :)

So where is this I that is talking credit for what is happening?
Is it somewhere inside the body? In the chest? Or in the feet? Or in the hands? Or in the head? Which part of the head exactly? The eyes? The forehead? Temples? Ears? In the throat? Look everywhere, and find it.
V: Or is it given? As an idea? Or as an entity?
T: This is another example of something I can understand intellectually, but have a hard time grasping further even when I look. Although I feel attracted to explore it. I think I just have to play with it some more.
Yes, please do so. And let me know what you find.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Guide Request

Postby restart » Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:23 pm

Hi Vivien,
So where is this I that is talking credit for what is happening?
Is it somewhere inside the body? In the chest? Or in the feet? Or in the hands? Or in the head? Which part of the head exactly? The eyes? The forehead? Temples? Ears? In the throat? Look everywhere, and find it.
I searched throughout the day and throughout the body for the I that is taking the credit. I found sensations all over, especially the sensation of touch, along with thoughts about the I.

During the looking I suddenly had the idea that there was an I searching for the I that is taking the credit. And that it wanted to take the credit for finally finding the I (or, alternatively, finally finding that there was none). Thus the I searching for itself. I wrestled with this for about half a day, unsure if it was profound, nonsensical, or just amusing. I ultimately decided it was a thought like any other, albeit an amusing one. Although it still tugs at me a little.
V: Or is it given? As an idea? Or as an entity?
T: This is another example of something I can understand intellectually, but have a hard time grasping further even when I look. Although I feel attracted to explore it. I think I just have to play with it some more.
V: Yes, please do so. And let me know what you find.
This suddenly became rather obvious to me after some hard looking. I could not find the I when I look for it; it only showed up with thoughts I believed to be true. So as far as I can tell, the I is simply an idea, given like any other sensation or thought. I feel quite confident in this now. About the entity, I've never really known what that term meant, so not sure about that one.

Another thing that struck me during the day. This looking process feels like doing. But it appears it is actually just happening too, like all the other activities I went through in the exercise two days ago. Which confronts me with the possibility that I am not doing the looking at all. Not sure what to do with that insight though, other than to keep looking.

Tom


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